Editors, How Do You Deal With This?

Anarchy

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I do freelance developmental and line editing. I've only been at it for eight months now, but I'm pretty decent at it considering my inexperience. However, I've come across a new breed of writer, and I can't seem to wrap my head around this phenomena: stylistic choices.
I've noticed that there are writers who have very obvious stylistic choices that break the rules of grammar for impact. That's fine, and it still reads smoothly, so I don't bother with it. However, in the past two days I've come across people that break the laws of grammar in such a way that it is distracting to read on top of looking unintentional. Naturally, since it seemed unintentional, I brought it up. They almost seemed offended that I immeditaly assumed that they skipped a few commas, or had long and redundant dependent clauses. The replies I've gotten are mildly condescending mentions of their MAs, as if a MA guarantees that one cannot make a grammar mistake.
How does one line edit around these things? Is it a learned skill, or is it a matter of not paying attention to the grammar at all? How do you know if these things are intentional or not? Would a publishing house be willing to overlook the style, or would they insist on changing it?
I'm going to be interning at a publishing house during the spring, so I'm sure I'll get more clarification, but this question has been bugging me to no end. For context, they are indie writers, but I'm not entirely certain that makes a difference. Maybe I am wrong on this, and I'm just reading it too closely to be able to see the impact of the grammar?
 

Curlz

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Well, one of the finalists for the Booker prize this year is a 1000-page novel which has only a handful of sentences. Like, one sentence runs on for hundreds of pages. There is a perfectly good explanation for the lack of full stops and why it works there. So, that's about it, there should be an explanation why the writer made this stylistic choice and how that run-on sentence or funky clause makes things better.
 

Anarchy

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I've heard of that, but never did get around to looking it up. That seems like it would be some sort of showcase for mastery.
I have no issue with styles that toss the usual methods to the wind. I don't have issues with people that break the rules of grammar for stylistic purposes.

My question is that how do you work with the experimental writing that isn't done so well? It's all subjective, of course, but trying to do line edits for a huge run-on or an incomplete thought that doesn't go anywhere is challenging for me. It's difficult to describe, but I think that I'm just going to start telling the more experimental writers that I'm simply not used to unconventional writing styles. I would love to learn, but this is beyond my knowledge and these people would be better off with an editor that has been doing this for 10+ years.
I guess I'm just going to have to go down a rabbit hole of books to figure it out.
 

veinglory

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Well, it would make sense to me to look at their genre and niche assuming it is not an experimental area full of unique stuff--and reference a selection of recent examples and publisher style guides. If they are trying to be experimental and failing all you can do is given your opinion and reasoning and help them solicit further input. I had one person wanting to write a whole book in a font that resembled (badly) handwriting, on the impression it would look like a handwritten journal. It wouldn't and was hard to read, and I told them so.

Either way if they insist on, for example, using ellipses in place of full stops you can tell them this will be a problem and give objective evidence. But if they make clear that they do not want this changed, that is their decision. Save your time and avoid making repetitive changes they have already considered and chosen to disregard. It's their gamble and they get to decide.

If you think the book is bad enough to be doomed, its your call whether to keep working with them, I guess. Or you could refer them to an editor specializing in whatever sort of book they think they are writing.
 
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Anarchy

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Thank you, that was very helpful. One was experimental literary, so I knew that my feedback would be relatively useless. The rest, however, were commercial.
It may be a good idea to pinpoint what they are unwilling to change before I begin.

Did the writer end up changing the font?
 

Old Hack

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The thing to remember is that an editor's job is to highlight the problems in a manuscript, and to suggest possible solutions to those problems. It's the author's job to resolve those problems.

The editor doesn't get to fix any of the problems, or to make any changes to the manuscript. The author doesn't have to resolve all the problems the editor sees; and she doesn't have to accept all the solutions the editor offers, either.

Your responsibility, as an editor, is to understand the author's vision for the manuscript before you start work; and then to do your best to enhance that vision.

This works really well when you're working with writers who understand how editing works, and who genuinely want their books to be the best that they can be. It's not so easy when you're working with an inexperienced writer who perhaps feels extremely emotionally attached to the work, and feels any criticism of the work is a criticism of the self.

I've found that it helps to not get drawn into discussions about your suggestions. Just say that you've done the best you can, and you're sorry it's not working for them. Because really, going over and over it isn't going to change anything.
 

Fuchsia Groan

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As Old Hack says, there’s no point in getting drawn into a back and forth. By suggesting changes to enhance clarity, you’re doing your job. It’s up to them whether they want to keep the changes or stet.

Mentioning their MAs probably comes from a place of insecurity—try not to take it personally. (Been there. It’s hard.) We all know MAs can make grammar and usage mistakes like anyone else. Hell, I’m a lit PhD and an editor, and I still get plenty of copyedits from my publisher. If I disagree with them, I just say so. But mostly I let copyeditors have their way, because so few hills are worth dying on. Plus, if one reader finds something unclear, they probably won’t be the only one. Better to fix it.

I’ve read or skimmed a lot of self-published books in the “literary” vein that could have used way more aggressive editing. Experimentation is great, but you have to be a real master to do it effectively and accessibly. Not everyone is a master. Too many failed experiments can make a book very hard to read. (Don’t get me started on the small-press book I read that repeatedly mixed up “it’s” and “its”—while it was “experimental,” I’m pretty sure that was a mistake.) So you’re fighting the good fight as far as I’m concerned, but it’s up to the authors whether they want to address the issues you’re pointing out.

ETA: There are always diplomatic formulations you can use, like “Clause seems long and redundant. Recast?” But you’re probably already doing that!
 
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CatherineDunn

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Old Hack said it!

I'm an editor and I normally use some kind of diplomatic wording like 'I stumbled over this, so there's a fair chance that a few readers will also stumble over it'. Phrases I tend to use include 'reads awkwardly', 'made me do a double take', 'unsure whether you mean X or Y - please clarify', 'jolted me out of the moment', and so on. They all acknowledge that it's subjective to some degree, while hopefully getting across that I'm acting as a kind of 'average reader' and trying to smooth things where they are unclear and keep the reader immersed in the story (or character-building or whatever is going on).

I've actually never had anyone argue with me over my edits (knock on wood!), but I'm always clear that they are free to accept or reject them as they see fit. The final product is the author's artistic work, and they are free to disagree with me even when I'm right! ;-)
 

Paul Lamb

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Look at Faulkner. Look at Saramago. A copy editor could go insane trying to "correct" that prose.

If it truly is stylistic (and not affectation), then I suppose you point it out and step away. The writer should be grateful for your careful work and then consider what you have to say.

That business of citing an MA is a sign of insecurity or unwarranted haughtiness at the very least. We're all supposed to be adults here.
 

AW Admin

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Pay attention to Old Hack. It's not your job to fix problems. You point them out. The writer does whatever the want, even if it's stupid.

Not Your Problem.


Waving the M.A.? Pleeeeease. I have a Ph.D. in English. I screw up all the time. I trust my editors. They make me look good.

Most people can't edit their own prose. Editors edit; writers revise, because we can't see our own errors.
 

Stytch

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The replies I've gotten are mildly condescending mentions of their MAs, as if a MA guarantees that one cannot make a grammar mistake.
When I worked at a university, at one point I was in the PR/marketing department, and we frequently made/edited/translated the marketing materials for the various academic departments. I promise you, academic degrees don't mean the material a person produces is perfect. I'd be working on a pamphlet for the ENGLISH department, which was full of MFAs and published authors, and they couldn't agree on how to write some sentences sometimes. Couldn't agree with each other, mind, not me.

I'd point to Associated Press Style (if AP had a style point for a particular thing) because our department insisted on it, and usually settled the issue that way.

Sometimes there are no "right" answers, language evolves, and different styles contradict each other. At least make them commit to being consistent, maybe, if they've determined to do some weird "stylistic" thing. Then fine, point out that you, as a reader, found their style difficult to follow or whatever, and let it go. Bonus snark points if you can show them how their self-created "style" is inconsistent.

Be wrong all you want, dear writer, but please be wrong consistently so we know it's a choice.
 

Fallen

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I've seen one author argue agressively that head-hopping is just another stylistic choice, one they want to use and bring back into fashion. :Shrug:
 

WeaselFire

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How does one line edit around these things? Is it a learned skill, or is it a matter of not paying attention to the grammar at all? How do you know if these things are intentional or not? Would a publishing house be willing to overlook the style, or would they insist on changing it?

Okay, as a writer, I have an editor I work with regularly who changes my style to the "correct" style for both the publication and CMS. I simply revert back to my original where appropriate. I know why I used the style I did and why it works, even without a MA. But I don't butt heads with him because he is correct and he does excellent, timely, work.

As an editor, I have had to work with writers who don't have a good grasp of English (technical books don't sell in Urdu very well...) and I correct all the errors as needed. Occasionally I get questioned, sometimes angrily, about why I changed it. I just send back a note that says I corrected to a proper style but they are free to accept or reject any changes as they wish. And, on a really rare occasion, I corrected grammar on a straight line edit and the author sent me a four page, profanity laced, email about how I couldn't possibly be trained in the English language and that she knew better than anyone how to write. I sent her deposit back with a note that I was sorry creative differences wouldn't allow us to work together. Six months later she contacted me for a final copy edit and I ignored the request.

Sometimes, you and a writer just won't mesh. In those cases it's best for you, and the writer, to part ways.

Jeff
 

BPhillipYork

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I've seen one author argue agressively that head-hopping is just another stylistic choice, one they want to use and bring back into fashion. :Shrug:

I always think with stuff like this it's neat and all but, when you think about people who famous for breaking the rules like Picasso, or Joyce, they painted and wrote a lot of more normal stuff first. Ulysses would not have been published as a debut novel. Before Picasso did all his funky stuff, he did very "normal" painting with "normal" depictions of people and geometry.

There are always people who think they buck the curve and do something totally new and transgressive out the gate. If they're truly a trendsetting genius writer they can probably write something less experimental well. If all they can do is this outside grammar experimental stuff, to me it's a strong indicator that they aren't such a strong writer and really more of a gimmick. Other than Forrest Gump, I don't know of too many people who learn to walk before they can run.
 

frimble3

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If anyone pulls the "I have an MA" card, counter with a raised eyebrow and an inquiring "In what?" Master of Arts can cover anything that isn't a science.
Alternatively, "From what school?"

These are both gentler replies than, "How much did your mama have to pay the school to get you that?"
 

Thomas Vail

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The thing to remember is that an editor's job is to highlight the problems in a manuscript, and to suggest possible solutions to those problems. It's the author's job to resolve those problems.
As has already been mentioned several times, this is the part you need to internalize. You brought it to their attention - if they don't want to do anything about it, that's on them. You did your job, so move on to the next part.

A lot of people want to be the next Joyce or e.e. cummings. Very few of them are and most certainly not at the start of their careers.