Does anybody else check a publisher's titles' Amazon sales ranks before submitting?

pattmayne

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If a publisher has ugly covers and/or generally "low" sales ranks on their titles then I tend to keep them off my list. But in truth I'm not even sure exactly what those sales rank numbers mean (yes, I know there's been endless discussion about this!).

For me "low" is anything higher than 1.5 million. I want to get in with publishers whose titles rank below a million.

How does this compare with what everybody else is doing? It seems reasonable to me but maybe there are factors I'm missing. Are there other sales rank lists I should be using?
 

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Note: I haven't submitted or queried in a while.

When submitting directly to publishers, I might take Amazon sales ranks into account, but I learn so much more by reading their website, seeing what other writers say about them, and so on. Is the publisher less than two years old? I wait and see how they do and consider elsewhere. Is their website aimed at authors and not readers? Then I do more digging into what services they offer and if they are trying to make money from authors (i.e., a vanity press) or from book sales (which is what I want). Do the folks running the place have credentials in the business, or are they simply "passionate about your publishing dreams and have always wanted to do this" without maybe actually knowing how to do this? Do they expect me to develop the marketing program, or for me to do the marketing? I'm happy to participate but that's their job as the professionals. Do they have a thread here and what do people say about them? How are their titles selling? (See? Not unimportant but not the first things I look for).

All that said, any publisher with decent sales ranks are likely (though this isn't an absolute) to accept submissions only from agents. In that case, it's the agent's job (and what they get paid for) to do this research for you and find the best fit.
 

Sonya Heaney

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I did actually have a panic when I got my first offer, because that publisher's covers are... not good. I was lucky that the publisher I wanted was willing to push my submission through. My contract has some clause about not being allowed to publicly say negative things about my covers, but I'm fine with that because they do a great job.

Sales ranks and all of that do my head in. I think I'd get too stressed worrying about it.
 

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Well, when looking at the sales rankings, I think you have to take in account how long the book has been out...

But to rank worse than a million, that means a book hasn't sold for quite a while.

I've self-published 7 books in the past 15 months and have another on pre-order, and never has one of them ranked worse than 600,000 or 700,000 in all the time they've been out.
 

lorna_w

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Absolutely. I'm a successful self-published author, and when agents and publishers contact me, I check what they've done for their other authors. It's always "less than I can do for myself," so I say thanks but no thanks.

Good for you for thinking of this. Smart business practice! The only thing I'd say different is this: if they have a book released in the last 3 months, it had better be above 100,000 in ranking, not above 1.5 million. As Amazon.com represents 70% of a book's sales (it might be more, but it's at least that), here's what ranking at Amazon.com means in sales:

#50,000 to 100,000 – sales of 1-2 books a day. (so at all stores, all territories, maybe 2-3 books per day)
#10,000 to 50,000 – sales of 3 to 15 books a day. (4-20 at all stores/territories)
(and just for reference, and may it happen to you)
#50 - sales of 1800 books per day

If a publisher can't sell a book per day of their best new book, they are not worth engaging with. If you get a dollar per book royalty, even at a top ranking of #100,000, that isn't a living. It's not even coffee money.
 

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Others know more about this than I do, but if you’re looking at print publishers rather than e-only, I would also look at their distribution. Do they have a sales force actively selling books into indie stores, B&N, and libraries? With children’s titles in particular, the school/library market is huge, potentially way more significant than Amazon. I know from comparing BookScan sales (which don’t include libraries and some indie stores) with actual sales (from royalty statements) that online sales are only one piece of the picture. For some categories and formats, they could be the most important piece, though.
 

cool pop

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I used to do this too, definitely. With an ebook publisher especially it's important to do this because you're only going to be online and Amazon is the biggest seller. Most times if the book isn't selling well at Amazon it's not doing great elsewhere. Also, many e-publishing companies now are in Kindle Unlimited meaning they are exclusive to Amazon so if those rankings are really bad then that's troubling since KU books rely on borrows.

You want a low ranking. Not a higher one. So 1.5 million is horrible because it's high. This could mean the book hasn't sold anything since being published or hasn't sold anything in over a year. You want to have something at least 100,000 and below with a new release and even that isn't good for a brand new book. Not by my standards. If I had a new book in the 100,000s that's a flop for me. That ranking is great for a book that's been out for months but you want to be 20,000 and below (at least) when the book is just releasing. I'm usually around 5,000 when I have a new release. Note, I am wide (meaning I sell my book on all retailers) so I don't get the benefit of a fair ranking since KU books benefit from a manipulated rank boost. This means even if your book is selling great wide and more than a KU book, your rankings won't be accurate due to things being skewed toward KU books. Amazon uses the rank boost to keep authors in KU.

Check a bunch of the pub's new releases and if they got new books 500,000 up for example that indicates the sales are normally bad overall for the pub. If new releases aren't selling then that's an issue.

For print pubs, their ebook prices are usually super high so it can be misleading with Amazon since they might be selling more in print than in the ebook.

But if the pub is only online and can't move things at Amazon then you don't need them. You can publish your own book and get a hell of a lot better than ranking of 500,000 and up! The only books I have with rankings that bad are super old ones I haven't promoted in a while. Your newer releases should never be that high in ranking. That's a pitiful ranking for a new book means you haven't sold ONE copy. I wouldn't sign with a pub with a bunch of bad rankings and if I had a new release from a pub ranking that high I'd be mighty concerned. That proves they aren't doing anything to help sell books.

I agree with you about the ugly covers as well.

I commend you on having standards. I've seen too many writers desperate to say they are "published" they'll sign with anything they can find no matter how bad the publisher is.

Another thing, Amazon's rankings aren't the most reliable thing and being an author with books on all platforms I don't pay Amazon rankings much attention anymore but they can still give you an idea of how well a pub is doing. You can kind of bet if a book is 200,000 and up it's safe to say it's not selling or hasn't been for a while. Rankings go up and down though but a pub shouldn't have a bunch of new books ranking high.
 
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pattmayne

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... here's what ranking at Amazon.com means in sales:

#50,000 to 100,000 – sales of 1-2 books a day. (so at all stores, all territories, maybe 2-3 books per day)
#10,000 to 50,000 – sales of 3 to 15 books a day. (4-20 at all stores/territories)
(and just for reference, and may it happen to you)
#50 - sales of 1800 books per day

This is just the kind of info I've been looking for. Where do you get these stats?

Also, I'd love to hear more about how you became a successful self-published author. I love the self-publishing process but I don't have the money to market properly, and I'm not convinced that there's a real method or model, but I'd love to be able to make a living that way. Do you have posts or a blog already discussing your own methods?
 

pattmayne

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It looks like my standards were too low! I thought that anything below one million was decent, but I want to get below 100,000.

I'm glad other people are checking the same stats, so I'm not a lunatic for taking those numbers seriously.
 

cool pop

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This is just the kind of info I've been looking for. Where do you get these stats?

Also, I'd love to hear more about how you became a successful self-published author. I love the self-publishing process but I don't have the money to market properly, and I'm not convinced that there's a real method or model, but I'd love to be able to make a living that way. Do you have posts or a blog already discussing your own methods?

You didn't address this to me but I wanted to chime in since I do okay self-publishing as well. The stats come from years of analyzing ranks compared to sales, etc. They are stats most authors use as a guide to judge the ranking. Being an author that sells in places more than Amazon I don't pay attention to the ranking much because wide authors are penalized and the rankings skewed to favor Kindle Unlimited books so Amazon can keep authors in the program.

As I said, the rankings aren't really accurate. Amazon is known for manipulating rankings and when you figure in KU books it's even more inaccurate since those authors can be considered "bestselling" without even selling one copy. They rely on borrows. But, still it's a guideline if anything.

You "can" become a successful SP author by putting out quality work and growing a brand so you can have loyal readers. Success means different things to different people so what might be successful to some is not successful to others.

Focus on producing good books and do all you can to get them out there.
 

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The only thing I'd say different is this: if they have a book released in the last 3 months, it had better be above 100,000 in ranking, not above 1.5 million. As Amazon.com represents 70% of a book's sales (it might be more, but it's at least that), here's what ranking at Amazon.com means in sales:

I disagree that Amazon represents 70% of a book's sales. That might be true for self published books, but it's not true for trade published books, which sell in large numbers through book clubs, supermarkets, etc as well as through physical bookshops. And Amazon doesn't do so well in many foreign language markets, or for lots of translated editions.

#50,000 to 100,000 – sales of 1-2 books a day. (so at all stores, all territories, maybe 2-3 books per day)
#10,000 to 50,000 – sales of 3 to 15 books a day. (4-20 at all stores/territories)
(and just for reference, and may it happen to you)
#50 - sales of 1800 books per day

I'm not sure that these figures are accurate. They might work if you're looking at the rankings across all titles and genres; but the further you get down those genre listings, the less accurate they become. I know of people who have had their books at number one in several of Amazon's best-seller lists, but they've only sold a handful of books to get there.

If a publisher can't sell a book per day of their best new book, they are not worth engaging with. If you get a dollar per book royalty, even at a top ranking of #100,000, that isn't a living. It's not even coffee money.

Absolutely. Far better, I think, to self publish and do it well than to trade publish with a dodgy publisher.
 

lorna_w

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I'm not sure that these figures are accurate. They might work if you're looking at the rankings across all titles and genres; but the further you get down those genre listings, the less accurate they become. I know of people who have had their books at number one in several of Amazon's best-seller lists, but they've only sold a handful of books to get there.

Of course I mean ranking in store. I am 100% sure those ranking figures are accurate as of this month. You are right that being #1 in a subgenre list means nothing (though typically, the top 5 in Contemporary Romance and top 5 in F/SF, and top 5 in Thrillers, those broader and most popular categories, are also always top 100 in store and likely top 100 in national sales). I'm talking rankings of all books, including NF: "paid ranking in store." (I don't care about free in store. Meaningless to me, as it means no direct income for that product.) If you don't know how to find that on a book page, get on a computer and google "top 100 books Amazon" and then click on each individual book page and scroll down until you see the ranking list, typically four to six lines long, something like this:

Amazon Best Sellers Rank
#28 Paid in Store
#1 in Paranormal Romance (Books)
#2 in Paranormal Romance (ebooks)
#8 in Horror (Books)

(and so on)

That imaginary book is #28 in store, the 28th best selling book today at Amazon.com. I don't give a hoot about the rest of it (except when it's me at #1 in a genre, and then I only care for silly ego reasons.) It's right there for the world to see. Let's say that book is priced at 3.99 and is self-published. That author is selling about 2400 units today, times $2.70 royalty = $6500 gross income today on that book alone. You go to the author page, you look at every book under that name, its price, its ranking, and you can get the income on every book at Amazon. You go over to Barnes and Noble...do the same thing with a different formula, and go to Amazon.ca and Amazon.uk and so on. You add up all those figures, and you know at least 90% of what any author made today. You can compute what percentage was made at Amazon.com.

Let's say tomorrow the position #28 paid in store at Amazon.com is held by a person who has a trade-published paperback original instead--and to make it easy on me, the ebook is not out yet. The book is priced at 7.99. She's making a 6% royalty. Still selling 2400 units because of the store ranking, x $.48 royalty per book = $1150 income that day for that one book (of which her agent will get $170). If her book is out in paper, hardcover, and ebook, it's harder to estimate her gross income over the four biggest book sellers, but with the ranking formulas in hand, you can, if you feel moved to. I don't particularly recommend it, but I've done it.

You want to really spend some time with this exercise? Ranking for each book on each day is tracked over the past five years. You could look at every book of any author, for every day, and have a good estimate of any author's income (I often wonder if the IRS or other taxing agencies know about this. :))

Anyone who has had rankings from top 20 down to 1,000,000 knows this formula from direct experience, as does anyone belonging to top-earning private writer groups, where people share their information and we can get down to X ranking in store = Y sales on any given day of the year, and we can and do share percentages of our income broken down by store/region/format so know what the ranges are.

While a few trade-published authors claim to be making lots of hidden money a stranger cannot determine by looking at sales rankings in all formats, all stores, all territories, if you ask them "where and how much exactly at each place?" they never answer with specifics, so color me skeptical. I've been in the biz too long, and know too many American and Canadian trade published midlisters to swallow vague references to hidden income amounting to much. Were it a true claim, the person claiming it would be able to produce the figures: royalty statements, a monthly bank account statement with business names blurred out, their 1040 or Schedule C, something. As none ever have, not even once that I'm aware of, I can't believe it. After thirty years in the business, with lots of friends in trade over the year, I know about all sorts of little side income, and none of it amounts to much expressed as a percentage. I remember how shocked I was as a younger person understanding how little something like a Japanese translation meant in income to the author. Sounds impressive, "I got a Japanese deal." But I never saw it come to five figures income among the people I knew. I saw a foreign deal come to only three figures several times! Hardly worth the time they spent reading the contract or talking on the phone about it.

Journalists at financial newspapers and magazines use the 70% figure for Amazon's percentage of the biz. In ebooks, they say, Amazon has 90%. It's not my figure; it's theirs, and I assume they know, for acquiring that sort of knowledge is their jobs, just as knowing the ranking/sales formula is part of mine as a publisher. For self-publishers, yes, Amazon might be higher than for the trade-published, and it can be 100% if we choose. Some self-publishing income is also hidden from you if you don't belong to the top-sellers' groups where people discuss it, including library sales, small bookshop sales, movie options, Prime Reading selection--and possibly the most impressive, KU bonuses, which can easily add ten thousand dollars to a self-published author's income every year. (None of us take NDAs serious. We know they are meant to screw us over, not to help us.) Some of us ghostwrite, same as in trade. And for those of us who have hybrid deals for audio or paper or whatever, you'd need to ask us what our tiered royalties look like in order to run the numbers for those formats, but again, we tell each other those figures.

And beyond X ranking in store = Y gross sales, it's true that author expenses vary. The trade published always have that 15% or higher bite from agents, and whatever else they choose to spend on. I spend little. Other self-publishers drop $200K on Facebook ads every year, or pay Amazon for enhanced book pages, have a VA, an accountant, a financial adviser, LLC expenses, a $3000 treadmill desk and a masseuse who comes in at the end of each writing day, and so on. So what I can't even guess at is how much any writer is putting in the bank except for me and my closest friends in the biz, who net from "hardly anything" for a newer writer working the ads pretty hard up to "more than I know how to spend." But anyone can see with a high degree of accuracy the maximum any author might be grossing in paperbacks, audio, and books. Certainly, I understand several reasons why some people would be upset that anyone with the formulas can now do so--perhaps they're selling advice to wannabe writers and if everyone knew how unsuccessful they actually are as novelists, that other/probably larger part of their income would fall off, or perhaps they were taught it's impolite to discuss money, or perhaps publishers or agents convinced them it's not to their benefit to understand what's going on in the business or how the money end works (when it most definitely is to the writer's benefit), or perhaps they are ashamed of their low income, even though that's the situation of most writers most years, or perhaps, as some have suggested, someone is paying them to lie, though that seems a bit too conspiracy-theory for me! Knowing as many writers as I have over the years, I knew a couple who were self-aggrandizing or compulsive liars...but the days when such people can lie about book-writing income are gone. The truth is out there, naked, standing in the town square. Anyone with the basic knowledge can see it.
 

Siri Kirpal

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Also, you can be selling books through channels that don't make it into either the Amazon or Nielsen Bookscans. In that case (which is what mine is), your numbers can look atrocious even though your sales are fair.

Blessings,

Siri Kirpal