Grasping storytelling

I planned and plotted the major story points of my manuscript like a screenplay, because I am very visually oriented with stories and it's just easier for me to think of the "movie version" first before transforming it into a book.

I also feel like I just have a better understanding of what goes into good filmcraft on a theoretical level? Maybe that will change when I've accumulated more experience writing books. But for now I find it simplest to write an admittedly way-too-long movie, then flesh it out into a novel with each scene more or less becoming a chapter.

eta. On the downside, I suspect this contributes to making my writing over-mechanical in moments. AW critters have helped me recognize my tendency to over-describe physical actions, for instance, which I think is also a bad habit picked up from all the time I spend GMing roleplaying games.

I do try to be responsive to my characters and let them redirect the flow of the plot as they grow and change and teach me who they are. Eventually I revise my outlines so many times they become arguably a new story entirely. That part is quite a bit like GMing a roleplaying game.

satyesu said:

I'm finding it hard to think of scenes in my novel. I'm tempted to plow through plot points, and that seems wrong. I guess it's because I'm thinking of the way screenplays are written, where, ideally, every scene, shot, and sentence has a purpose. Do novels work this way?

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Plot driven novels do, yes. Mine do.

What's the purpose, or "thesis statement," if you will?

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It's the one sentence 'log line' that your novel will be about. In my current project, it's something like: To give her son the chance for a normal childhood, a single mother takes on the fossil fuel industry.

What is the central thing about your protagonist, that they work for? their motivation, and what they actively do? That's one way to think about a thesis statement.

I'd suggest googling the snowflake method. It's a way to focus on the questions you are asking, and answers for those questions.

satyesu said:

I guess I'm also looking at the thing like an essay, and I'm unsure how to make scenes out of the supporting points. I don't know what the "thesis styatement" is supposed to be, or how to add to it.

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Why do you need a thesis statement, out of curiosity? Are you trying to use the novel to make a particular argument? I feel like if you tell stories that excite you, your values and beliefs will naturally work their way in as themes one way or another. I don't think it's necessary to plan them explicitly—and if you do you might risk your work coming across as hard allegory, or just being didactic.

eta. Although based on Patty's post, maybe "thesis statement" means something very different in the literary world than it does in my background area.

satyesu said:

I'm finding it hard to think of scenes in my novel. I'm tempted to plow through plot points, and that seems wrong. I guess it's because I'm thinking of the way screenplays are written, where, ideally, every scene, shot, and sentence has a purpose. Do novels work this way? What's the purpose, or "thesis statement," if you will? I know things I'd like to talk about with my novel, but I don't want to lecture or preach, because that's not why people will pick it up.

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Novels are like screenplays in the sense the purpose of everything in a novel (chapter, scenes, dialogues) is to either advance the plot or develop characters.

I think every scene and sentence has a purpose in a novel too.

The difference is, you need to describe more than in a sceenplay, because you won't have a director coming along to convert your words into something visual.

Novels can be more focused on plot or on character, or on a sort of blend of the two, and there is definitely more to stories than just the plot.

Sometimes difficulties with scene construction occur when the writer is unclear on the narrative viewpoint and on whose perceptions are driving things forward. It can also be a problem if the writer isn't visualizing what people are doing and which details are important for bringing the reader into the moment.

I'm floundering just as much as you are, but a couple things I've picked up and can share—

1.) I'd echo Pharm and suggest thinking less in terms of "thesis statement" and more in terms of "story." If I recall you're trying to tell the story of a Catholic growing into atheism? Set aside ideas, what makes that a compelling story? The things your MC risks as he explores? The things he has to overcome (I seem to remember drugs?—not positive)? Tell that story. Use the thesis and the ideas you want to share as the driving motivation, and they'll bleed through naturally. As a reader, I'm not a fan of fiction that has a strong message, but I'll eagerly read a good story with compelling characters, and then I'll ponder the author's intentions for days. So you'll have achieved two goals: people will read your work, and your message will stick with them.

2.) I actually use TV and movies as an aid to storytelling. Just like in TV and movies, every scene has to move the plot forward or develop the characters. Since watching TV is a more passive act than reading, I can more easily think, "What is the purpose of this scene? What is happening in the plot or what am I learning about this character?" Of course, I run into the same pitfalls as Pharm does. But it's been helpful to me because TV can't have lengthy expository paragraphs (unless they occur a long time ago in a galaxy far far away) and so it's helped me think how I would show rather than tell.

2.5) Of course, read widely as well. Because books are a different medium than TV shows.

pharm said:

eta. Although based on Patty's post, maybe "thesis statement" means something very different in the literary world than it does in my background area.

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I might be using the word wrong, too. I'm heavily influenced by a snowflake at the moment. But I'm guessing log line and thesis statement serve similar purposes--condense the idea of a novel to one sentence.

Write.

Every three days you start a new thread asking about something.

Writing will solve your problems.

Here's a secret: neither screenplays nor novels are perfect on first draft. Every text ever written contains scenes that lack purpose or plot beats, and which are revised later or left in there anyway because these things don't matter that much.

You can't get to the revision until you actually write. Revision is 90% of the final product, and also where a lot of the work happens. You can't do that work until you have a finished book to do it on.

The only thing anyone has to do to get there is write, and then keep writing even if you're worried it's all going wrong. It probably is. Fix it later. Or, as they say in the movies, "fix it in post". If you're stuck, write your way out of it. It is far easier to cut later than go back and start again.

satyesu said:

I know things I'd like to talk about with my novel, but I don't want to lecture or preach, because that's not why people will pick it up.

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That's a good realization. NO ONE likes a preachy novel. I can think of a ton of stories that leave a moral imprint on you like Grapes of Wrath. But, the story shows you the lives of the Joad's and allows the reader to make a decision if you think they are just trying to look for a better life or if they are invading California.

Here's the thing I've found w/ my writing... it isn't about the reader or plot points. It is about writing a story you want to read. If you "plow through" your plot points and that is awesome and fills you with joy... awesome! If you want to slow down and unpack scenes more... awesome! The key is that the story reflects your heart. I've never known a single person who was happy when they wrote a story for anyone other than themselves.

So, my advice is simple: don't worry about what seems right or wrong, don't worry about the reader, or plot points, or being preachy. Write exactly what you want to read. Edit it until you get the paper to reflect your heart, send it into the world, and move on to the next work. That is the entire game right there, and the only way to feel good about your work.

satyesu said:

I'm finding it hard to think of scenes in my novel. I'm tempted to plow through plot points, and that seems wrong. I guess it's because I'm thinking of the way screenplays are written, where, ideally, every scene, shot, and sentence has a purpose. Do novels work this way? What's the purpose, or "thesis statement," if you will? I know things I'd like to talk about with my novel, but I don't want to lecture or preach, because that's not why people will pick it up.

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I usually have a theme buried within my novels; that and the arc of the MC(s) is what drives the story. As far as preaching goes, I just (do my best to) tell the truth from the MC's POV, and let the reader reach their own conclusions.

In my WIP - the theme is intolerance, and the arc of the MC is his struggle to remain a pacifist in a violent world. The story occurs in a post apocalyptic world, where a religious cult believes the fire (solar CME) that destroyed the world was sent by God to purify humanity. The cult leader then proceeds to torture and burn people alive to save them. The MC(s) are androids living in a community that fears / hates technology. That's the story I tell.

Through analogy, a reader might see parallels to religious / political intolerance, and they may also see a relationship between the types of interpersonal relationships that exist within our culture. These are alluded to, and can be found if the reader is willing to look for them, or they can go unnoticed - either way the story (I hope) is entertaining.

One of the best ways to learn this sort of thing, to absorb it intrinsically, is to read. A lot. (If you're striving to learn, read a title more than once. First, read as a reader, to discover and enjoy, with no pressure. Second time or beyond, read as a writer, to figure out the structure, how characters are revealed, how the plot is advanced, how the POV was chosen... whatever you're focused on learning at the time. Write it out as you go, if it helps.) Read the stuff you want to write. Reach outside your comfort zone to compare and contrast with other styles/genres/age categories.

Brightdreamer said:

One of the best ways to learn this sort of thing, to absorb it intrinsically, is to read. A lot. (If you're striving to learn, read a title more than once. First, read as a reader, to discover and enjoy, with no pressure. Second time or beyond, read as a writer, to figure out the structure, how characters are revealed, how the plot is advanced, how the POV was chosen... whatever you're focused on learning at the time. Write it out as you go, if it helps.) Read the stuff you want to write. Reach outside your comfort zone to compare and contrast with other styles/genres/age categories.

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+1 to all of this.

And don't be afraid to mark up a copy. Lots of people find it really helpful to highlight or underline sections of texts for later reference of focus. It's very, very useful to pull apart prose on a line level to learn about its rhythms and effects. If you want, Google "close reading" and try to apply some of those techniques when you read.

None of this, though, is a substitute for actually writing.

I don't mean to suggest it's not useful. There's a huge amount can be gleaned by studying texts, and you'll get, if not answers, then at least some knowledge about these kinds of questions. If you find the questions intrinsically interesting, maybe see if there are classes in English literature available near you.

There's not always that much cross-over between studying English lit and writing it, though. It's helpful, but far from a requirement. Speaking as someone who's done a degree in English, you kind of go through three phases as a writer:

1. "What is all this stuff and why does it matter? I just like stories about horse-fairies where the good guys win, and there's not enough explosions in Viriginia Woolf. What's this about Joyce? I don't understand!!!!1111!!!!1!."

2. "Ohmygod, this stuff is so incredible! I now have the secrets of the universe and I can definitely use classic verse structures and how they relate to theories baroque architecture in my completely unsaleable 283,000-word mass-market fantasy retelling of Gargantua and Pantagruel which deconstructs Campbellian archetypes to make a point about feminist textual liberation."

3. *slow realization that this is actually all art* "Wait, most of the writers I like willfully ignored most of the analytical side of writing. Half of them were out of their heads on opium/booze/LSD, and the other half barely had a grade six education, but they have these incredible instincts drawn from experience or imagination. It's genius--but mostly it's just very smart fart jokes. Plus it has explosions, but they're obviously post-structuralist explosions, why does no one see this??????" *writes 28,000-word Medium post* "Also, do you think they'll cast Tom Hiddlestone in the movie version?"

VeryBigBeard said:

Write.

Every three days you start a new thread asking about something.

Writing will solve your problems.

Here's a secret: neither screenplays nor novels are perfect on first draft. Every text ever written contains scenes that lack purpose or plot beats, and which are revised later or left in there anyway because these things don't matter that much.

You can't get to the revision until you actually write. Revision is 90% of the final product, and also where a lot of the work happens. You can't do that work until you have a finished book to do it on.

The only thing anyone has to do to get there is write, and then keep writing even if you're worried it's all going wrong. It probably is. Fix it later. Or, as they say in the movies, "fix it in post". If you're stuck, write your way out of it. It is far easier to cut later than go back and start again.

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