Thoughts on enrolling in these critique/publishing sessions at local CC?

Scout · Jul 23, 2019

Not sure if this is the best place to post. I'm unpublished with 4 trunk novels. I've worked for years to try and improve my craft, but in a closed door, all by myself kind of way. Currently, I'm working on something I have a good feeling about. Feedback/critique and beta readers have been a missing piece in my process. My local community college is offering these two sessions in the fall. I'm intrigued. I wanted to get some opinions if participating in these sessions might be of value to someone like myself who does not know any writers irl, and is itching to move to the next level with my writing. I have no idea who the instructor is. What do you guys think?

Meet the Agent/
Publisher Q&A – Get Your
Manuscript Critiqued
Have you ever wanted to talk to a real agent or
publisher? Are you tired of having your manuscripts
critiqued by non-professionals or paying an editor too
much money to change your writing to their voice?
Bring your in-progress manuscript for an in-class
critique of one page of your poetry, article, short
story, screenplay, novel, non-fiction book, or children’s
book. You can then leave a COPY of your manuscript
for a professional critique of your entire manuscript
(for an optional materials fee of $50 for up to 25
double-spaced pages + $1/page thereafter) and a list
of publishers/agents who are interested in your type
of work. A mandatory $10 materials fee is payable
to instructor for in-class critique. The instructor is a
journalist, author, screenwriter, agent, publisher, and
adjunct online Professor of Publishing for Harvard.

$20
Hours: 1 W, 5-6 p.m.

Beginner’s Guide to
Getting Published
If your goal is to become a published freelance
writer by selling a magazine article, short story,
poem, or even a novel to a traditional publisher, this
comprehensive workshop will guide you to, then past
the editor’s desk. You will discover how to:
• become a “published” writer overnight
• submit manuscripts the correct way
• find the right publisher for your work
• write irresistible query letters
• determine when and how to get an agent
• 100 ways to make money as a freelance writer
If you really want to succeed, this step-by-step
workshop is a must! A mandatory $20 materials fee
is payable to the instructor at the door. The instructor
is a journalist, author, agent, publisher, and adjunct
online Professor of Publishing for Harvard.

$35
Hours: 2 W, 7-9 p.m.

cornflake · Jul 23, 2019

Scout said:
Not sure if this is the best place to post. I'm unpublished with 4 trunk novels. I've worked for years to try and improve my craft, but in a closed door, all by myself kind of way. Currently, I'm working on something I have a good feeling about. Feedback/critique and beta readers have been a missing piece in my process. My local community college is offering these two sessions in the fall. I'm intrigued. I wanted to get some opinions if participating in these sessions might be of value to someone like myself who does not know any writers irl, and is itching to move to the next level with my writing. I have no idea who the instructor is. What do you guys think?

Hi -- so in a general sense, what works for one person.... works for one person. Some people love their writer's groups, some love their betas, some have all of that, some love being alone in a room. There's not a right or wrong way to go, as long as it works for you, and there's nothing wrong with trying things to see if they might work for you.

Classes, like all writer's groups, crit groups, etc., in my experience, can be a total crapshoot. You might happen onto a group of great, insightful writers who share time and crits and help each other. You might happen onto a group made up of 80% of that and 20% ppl who can't stop talking, have unhelpful, but strong, opinions, or other such stuff; it might be 80/20 the other way. Usually it's a mix and whether and how you fit in is up to you. A lot of people end up trying a bunch of groups over time, or reconfiguring groups. I know this isn't an ANSWER but there's not really a specific answer to the general.

Meet the Agent/
Publisher Q&A – Get Your
Manuscript Critiqued
Have you ever wanted to talk to a real agent or
publisher? Are you tired of having your manuscripts
critiqued by non-professionals or paying an editor too
much money to change your writing to their voice?
Bring your in-progress manuscript for an in-class
critique of one page of your poetry, article, short
story, screenplay, novel, non-fiction book, or children’s
book. You can then leave a COPY of your manuscript
for a professional critique of your entire manuscript
(for an optional materials fee of $50 for up to 25
double-spaced pages + $1/page thereafter) and a list
of publishers/agents who are interested in your type
of work. A mandatory $10 materials fee is payable
to instructor for in-class critique. The instructor is a
journalist, author, screenwriter, agent, publisher, and
adjunct online Professor of Publishing for Harvard.

$20
Hours: 1 W, 5-6 p.m.

This, however, frankly, sounds like a load of bullshit. 'Paying an editor to change your writing to their voice,' makes me think the person who wrote that description and potentially runs the class has zero idea what editors actually do (hint: not that), and is thus, imo, deeply suspect. Then ... one page? Followed by hundreds of dollars for a "professional critique," though they don't even say by whom, and a list of agents who rep what you have? Full-on bullshit. That's not a class, it's a money-grab by people who are, I would bet a lot, not professionals.

A class worth taking would tell you the instructor's name/credentials, and would offer everyone in the class the chance to read and critique each other's stuff along with guidance from the instructor. That's how writing classes work. It's about sharing (not one page of a novel) and learning from other people's responses, ideas, etc., with the guidance of a professional. One hour is also bullshit, just btw. Nothing is getting done for a group of people in one hour (especially people who've never met) -- that's one suspiciously-credentialed person going through single pages and offering some random take meant to encourage you to pay them hundreds for their "critique."

Beginner’s Guide to
Getting Published
If your goal is to become a published freelance
writer by selling a magazine article, short story,
poem, or even a novel to a traditional publisher, Just the one article, story, poem or novel? Also, those are HUGELY different markets. this
comprehensive workshop will guide you to, then past
the editor’s desk. You will discover how to:
• become a “published” writer overnight By posting shit online?
• submit manuscripts the correct way
• find the right publisher for your work
• write irresistible query letters
• determine when and how to get an agent
• 100 ways to make money as a freelance writer OMFG
If you really want to succeed, this step-by-step
workshop is a must! A mandatory $20 materials fee
is payable to the instructor at the door. Payable to the instructor at the door? This is a legitimate CC? The instructor
is a journalist, author, agent, publisher, and adjunct
online Professor of Publishing for Harvard. Notice how they don't add 'University' here? I'm guessing there's a reason.

$35
Hours: 2 W, 7-9 p.m.

Most of the latter list of stuff you can find on AW, free of charge. You can also get critiques for queries, excerpts, etc. As above, some people do like in-person groups, and they can be great (I know people who've been in the same writing group for years). These things you've listed are not, imo, them. They look like bad Learning Annex "classes." Seek stuff elsewhere -- try Meetup or ask at the local bookstore, put an ad up at a coffee shop....

nickj47 · Jul 23, 2019

I don't know, I kind of adhere in the old adage, 'If you can, do. If you can't, teach.' You might learn some useful information in the second class, the first sounds like a waste of money to me. I've learned a lot from books on writing by noted authors, although they obviously can't tell you the latest about things like submission standards or what's currently popular. Feedback can be a great thing, but you have to be careful of the source.

Woollybear · Jul 23, 2019

I'd suggest finding out how the class was rated in the past. Try rate-my-professor and see what past students say.

I've taught at CC's (different subject matter) and they can be fantastic, both the students (who tend to be self motivated like you), and the faculty, (who often care deeply about the students and material). Tom Hanks credits a CC as part of his early path toward his current life. OTOH, there was a 'get your novel written' class at the local Adult Ed school (different than CC) and word on the street was that it had a lot of promotional stuff about the instructor, along with exercises for the students to do at home.

I'm a big believer in in-person groups, though, and it might be a good opportunity to find a good critique partner.

cornflake · Jul 23, 2019

Just in case -- I'm not in any way hating on CCs. That 'hand $$ to the instructor at the door' didn't sound like a legitimate CC to me, nor do the class descriptions. They do sound much more like Learning Annex stuff (some of which can be helpful, a lot of which is promo, money-grubbing bullshit). An actual CC writing class that lasted a semester or whatever might be great for someone looking to wade into in-person critique groups. Those can also spawn groups that persist long after the class is over.

nickj47 said:
I don't know, I kind of adhere in the old adage, 'If you can, do. If you can't, teach.' You might learn some useful information in the second class, the first sounds like a waste of money to me. I've learned a lot from books on writing by noted authors, although they obviously can't tell you the latest about things like submission standards or what's currently popular. Feedback can be a great thing, but you have to be careful of the source.

Sorry, but wouldn't books on writing by noted authors violate the 'if you can, do...' thing? Also, if that were true, no one would apprentice at anything. People who can often want to help those who want to learn. Other people who can't try instructing, which sometimes works, and sometimes doesn't. Some of the greatest athletes in the world made shitty coaches. Some of the greatest athletes in the world made great coaches.

Scout · Jul 23, 2019

To be clear, these two classes/sessions are being offered by the local legitimate community college, but in their continuing ed/personal enrichment catalogue.

All of the opinions mentioned are things that crossed my mind ( the good and the bad points). I'm still undecided, but leaning towards a no.

But, that brings me back to wanting/needing to find some sort of critique group/beta readers/feedback. I would love a little group to work with, either online or in person, for trading critiques/betas/brainstorming.

-Riv- · Jul 23, 2019

Scout said:
But, that brings me back to wanting/needing to find some sort of critique group/beta readers/feedback. I would love a little group to work with, either online or in person, for trading critiques/betas/brainstorming.

Share Your Work here on AW (password vista) is a great place to hone your critiquing skills and have your own work critiqued. Lots of people have developed online critique partner/beta relationships via SYW--and made friends along the way.

There's also a forum specifically for brainstorming.

All the best,
Riv

ironmikezero · Jul 23, 2019

When I read the OP's post my spidey sense started tingling . . . Maybe it's not a scam, as such, but something may well be off here.
I know, I'm suspicious and a bit cynical by nature. I got to that point the old-fashioned way--I earned it.

I was invited to be a guest lecturer at a local CC for a similar writing class (non-credit adult-ed, as I recall). I had a scheduling conflict and had to decline, but recommended a fellow author (she accepted). Later she confided that she wasn't comfortable with the experience, and subsequently learned that the "instructor" had charged the students an additional fee for her appearance and related handout materials (two-page copy of her CV and published articles to date--which she had provided the instructor prior to her lecture). I thought this sounded fishy and urged her to report this to the dean, which she did. Neither of us heard any more about it, officially. However, I learned that this class offering was not part of the regular curriculum, but was offered per a negotiated contract with an adult-ed "continuing education" business. There was nothing the CC could really do about the fees, despite the use of the CC facilities. So, caveat emptor . . .

Scout · Jul 23, 2019

-Riv- said:
Share Your Work here on AW (password vista) is a great place to hone your critiquing skills and have your own work critiqued. Lots of people have developed online critique partner/beta relationships via SYW--and made friends along the way. There's also a forum specifically for brainstorming.

All the best,
Riv

thank you Riv! AW is the only writing community I am part of and for the most part I feel comfortable here. I guess I may need to dive into SYW and see if I can find an online critique partner/beta relationship. My concern is that my critique skills are nowhere near the level of some of the AW members whose posts I admire. Sometimes something just seems to work or doesn't work, and I can't put my finger on why...I would worry that it would be an unequal relationship, that I would not be able to give back as much as I get.

Also, As much as I adore AW, I think I need to take the writing critique off line a bit so I'm not board hogging.

-Riv- · Jul 23, 2019

Scout said:
My concern is that my critique skills are nowhere near the level of some of the AW members whose posts I admire. Sometimes something just seems to work or doesn't work, and I can't put my finger on why...I would worry that it would be an unequal relationship, that I would not be able to give back as much as I get.

Any feedback is valuable. Just saying where, as a reader, you got thrown out/confused, what you liked, etc. is extremely helpful!

All the best,
Riv

nickj47 · Jul 23, 2019

cornflake said:
Sorry, but wouldn't books on writing by noted authors violate the 'if you can, do...' thing? Also, if that were true, no one would apprentice at anything. People who can often want to help those who want to learn. Other people who can't try instructing, which sometimes works, and sometimes doesn't. Some of the greatest athletes in the world made shitty coaches. Some of the greatest athletes in the world made great coaches.

You're right, but noted authors (e.g. Steven King) can be among those who 'want to help those who want to learn'. Not saying you can learn it all from books, just that they can be a useful alternative.

cornflake · Jul 23, 2019

nickj47 said:
You're right, but noted authors (e.g. Steven King) can be among those who 'want to help those who want to learn'. Not saying you can learn it all from books, just that they can be a useful alternative.

You said in the post I quoted originally that you subscribe to the 'those who can, do...' but also suggested how-to books by noted authors.

I was saying that those two positions seemed at odds. If you're saying books like King's that are designed to teach are valuable and that he isn't someone who can't write, see....

DanielSTJ · Jul 23, 2019

Why not give your hand at the SYW section? If you send me a PM letting me know where the work is located on the forum, I'll be more than happy to look at your work without a return critique. =)

1sa1ahsMum · Jul 23, 2019

Newbie hear but I've read great things about the SYW section. All the best!

Scout · Jul 24, 2019

DanielSTJ said:
Why not give your hand at the SYW section? If you send me a PM letting me know where the work is located on the forum, I'll be more than happy to look at your work without a return critique. =)

Thank you! To be clear, I am very happy to give return critiques!

mrsmig · Jul 24, 2019

There's something wrong when the course description lists the teacher's credits, but not the teacher's name. Save your money.

ETA: I think this may be the instructor in question: LeeAnne Krusemark.

AW Admin · Jul 24, 2019

Scout said:
Sometimes something just seems to work or doesn't work, and I can't put my finger on why...I would worry that it would be an unequal relationship, that I would not be able to give back as much as I get.

Actually, pointing to something that just doesn't seem to work, or sounds odd, is one of the most useful things you can offer.

That's actually what readers do; they don't necessarily try to "fix" the thing that bothers them or attracts their attention, but they notice it.

And there's also the value in a simple "I really like this sentence,” or "I like the way you . . . . " too.

Gillhoughly · Jul 24, 2019

mrsmig said:
ETA: I think this may be the instructor in question: LeeAnne Krusemark.

Yikes. Her 10 and 15-page "books" on marketing books and the dif between self and commercial publishing sell for 5 bucks a pop.

My favorite is how to do a book signing. TEN pages for 6 bucks!

Info like that is free to any mildly curious writer with access to Google.

Backing away and not bothering with popcorn.

Coddiwomple · Jul 24, 2019

"The inspiration given to others in her comprehensive workshops has even been compared in writing to Oprah! In addition, LeeAnne has performed stand-up comedy at places like the Laugh Factory and Paramount Studios, which gives her the ability to interject lightheartedness and humor into the dissemination of educational information."

:e2thud:

KBooks · Jul 24, 2019

Scout said:
My concern is that my critique skills are nowhere near the level of some of the AW members whose posts I admire. Sometimes something just seems to work or doesn't work, and I can't put my finger on why...I would worry that it would be an unequal relationship, that I would not be able to give back as much as I get.

What Riv said! And also, when you're getting crits, it really helps to get a wide range of them. Some get really technical, and that's great! Others, may come from someone who's just approaching your piece as an everyday reader would. Comments like:

"This paragraph really held my attention."
"I started getting bored here."
"I didn't really connect with this character."
"This confused me."
"Oh wow, that was cool!"
"Wait, what?"
"So many fantasy names that started with Q. I got them all mixed up."

...are super helpful. People posting their piece for crit will take something from every reaction they get.

Scout · Jul 24, 2019

mrsmig said:
There's something wrong when the course description lists the teacher's credits, but not the teacher's name. Save your money.

ETA: I think this may be the instructor in question: LeeAnne Krusemark.

whoa!!!!! Thanks Mrsmig for the detective work in finding this. Yeah, so that's a big HELL NO to these classes. Thanks for saving me time and money, both of which are in short supply.

*Hugs to all at AW* I wasn't expecting much when I posted my original question. Wow.

Fuchsia Groan · Jul 24, 2019

In-person critique does have a special value, because people will say things in a lively discussion that they might not say in email or a post or even chat. The candor can be more harsh sometimes, but ultimately useful. I love SYW and online betas, but also my in-person group.

One way to find other writers in your area is to attend readings, genre-specific book clubs and the like and see whom you connect with. My town has a large, organized writing workshop (with subsections for different formats and genres) that uses Meetup, so I’d search Meetup for your area. People often start out in those workshops and then split off and form their own groups. In my experience, the most useful group is composed of people at roughly the same skill level with the same genre/category interests, but that might not always be true. Your critters should ideally be familiar with your genre, though.

I’m so suspicious of anyone who claims to be a guru or a publishing expert. Even if the advice they give is fine (and not, say, outdated), their critique is still just one person’s critique, very possibly from outside your target audience. I’ve had a few crits like that that were not just negative, but dismissive, and definitely not worth paying for. The one time I paid $400 for a novel crit, it was from an author whose book I’d read, so I knew we’d be roughly on the same wavelength. She marked up the ms and followed up with a phone convo. It was harsh, but worth it, and one of the questions she asked—“Where is the love in this book? Does anyone love anything?”— has stuck with me ever since.

redstick · Jul 24, 2019

I'd have to say I've learned more from this site than the paid seminars. The fellow writers on here give advice that they feel is genuine, not because they can charge a few bucks. I don't always agree with all of it, but love the varied opinions and the wealth of knowledge expressed.

frimble3 · Jul 24, 2019

mrsmig said:
There's something wrong when the course description lists the teacher's credits, but not the teacher's name. Save your money.

ETA: I think this may be the instructor in question: LeeAnne Krusemark.

Written by LeeAnne Krusemark, an adjunct online professor for Harvard Adult Education,

Ah, yes! When 'Harvard University' is not specified, always remember that 'Harvard' is also a way of preparing beets.

Carrie in PA · Jul 29, 2019

I'll be the voice of dissent (sort of. I might be a hard no if I were motivated enough to click the link to the professor. LOL) and say I'd probably take one, if not both, of the classes. If you have the money to easily spare, and go into it with a grain of salt, there might be something of value, even if it's only connecting with another writer or two in your area. At worst, you've wasted an hour and twenty bucks.

Never mind. Curiosity overtook my apathy and I clicked the link. Eew. I'd use the twenty bucks for a pint of Häagen-Dazs and watch some Jenna Moreci videos on YouTube.

Thoughts on enrolling in these critique/publishing sessions at local CC?

Scout

cornflake

practical experience, FTW

nickj47

Woollybear

cornflake

practical experience, FTW

Scout

-Riv-

The much appreciated

ironmikezero

practical experience, FTW

Scout

-Riv-

The much appreciated

nickj47

cornflake

practical experience, FTW

DanielSTJ

The Wandering Bard

1sa1ahsMum

Scout

mrsmig

Write. Write. Writey Write Write.

AW Admin

Gillhoughly

Grumpy writer and editor

Coddiwomple

shipwrecked in antiquity

KBooks

Scout

Fuchsia Groan

Becoming a laptop-human hybrid

redstick

frimble3

Heckuva good sport

Carrie in PA

Write All The Words!