Banning Words

AJMarks · Jul 20, 2019

As someone who loves to write, this terrifies me.

Berkeley bans gendered words like 'manhole' and 'manpower'

As a writer, words are important, they are a power, so having even one taken away is like losing a bit of a diverse group of words (want to cringe a bit look at the City Council Report, specifically page 8). Where does it stop? You can even be arrested for it if your words are deemed 'hate' speech by whoever is in charge. Left, right, liberal, conservative, democrat, republican it shouldn't matter, limiting speech should terrify you if you're a writer.

Think Canada Allows Freedom of Speech? Think Again (article isn't new)

What's to stop them from passing a law which allows them to come after you because of a word you used in your story? (You used manuscript, we can't accept your story because manuscript starts with 'man' and that is banned.) Next they'll be telling you what words you can use and what story-lines you are allowed to write. Its interesting to write a story limiting yourself, its an entirely different situation when that limitation is forced upon you.

Its time to stop the madness. When did we become so intolerant we start to ban words. Reminds me of when I read '1984' in high school, thinking such things can't happen. I was wrong, they are happening and we don't care to fight back for our lost freedoms.

mccardey · Jul 20, 2019

AJMarks said:
As someone who loves to write, this terrifies me.

Berkeley bans gendered words like 'manhole' and 'manpower'

As a writer, words are important, they are a power, so having even one taken away is like losing a bit of a diverse group of words (want to cringe a bit look at the City Council Report, specifically page 8). Where does it stop? You can even be arrested for it if your words are deemed 'hate' speech by whoever is in charge. Left, right, liberal, conservative, democrat, republican it shouldn't matter, limiting speech should terrify you if you're a writer.

Think Canada Allows Freedom of Speech? Think Again (article isn't new)

What's to stop them from passing a law which allows them to come after you because of a word you used in your story? (You used manuscript, we can't accept your story because manuscript starts with 'man' and that is banned.) Next they'll be telling you what words you can use and what story-lines you are allowed to write. Its interesting to write a story limiting yourself, its an entirely different situation when that limitation is forced upon you.

Its time to stop the madness. When did we become so intolerant we start to ban words. Reminds me of when I read '1984' in high school, thinking such things can't happen. I was wrong, they are happening and we don't care to fight back for our lost freedoms.

In some places, some managements have decided to change some words out of respect for some of the historic baggage associated with them. No-one is stopping you using those words if you want to - they're not being fired into the sun or anything. As a writer you should already understand that words have stories attached that exist beyond their current definitions;language is in a process of constant change. And c'mon - change is fun, isn't it? Even for words.

There's no need to be terrified, and it isn't madness. It's language reflecting life.

Night_Writer · Jul 20, 2019

It's just for that city's municipal code.

Everybody else can talk about all the manhole covers they want.

Helix · Jul 20, 2019

Are they stopping everyone in Berkeley from using gendered words or are the making sure that gender-neutral terms are used in official city documents? Because one's an outrage and the other is overdue.

AubreyTCopeland · Jul 20, 2019

One thing I always try to avoid in my writing life is politics, because you're always going to alienate readers. However, this bothers me a lot. Truth is, it should bother everyone of all political affiliations, because if they can tell ordinary people what to say, they can tell us writers what we can and cannot write. I've already seen hyper-sensitivity to political correctness, for example, in CW classes at my local university, and I don't think my fellow classmates understood the ramifications of what they are doing. It had nothing to do with saying "manhole," but the principal remains the same. Sometimes, you just gotta say or write what you want, and not care what people think. First Amendment baby!

AubreyTCopeland · Jul 20, 2019

Night_Writer said:
It's just for that city's municipal code.

Everybody else can talk about all the manhole covers they want.

Except that it's a slippery slope. Right now, people can say what they want, but what about 10 or 15 years from now?

Helix · Jul 20, 2019

AubreyTCopeland said:
Except that it's a slippery slope. Right now, people can say what they want, but what about 10 or 15 years from now?

Except it's not. This is one council belatedly catching up with large parts of the rest of the world. I remember panic about changing the word 'manhole covers' in the...I don't know...70s...80s?

mccardey · Jul 20, 2019

AubreyTCopeland said:
Except that it's a slippery slope. Right now, people can say what they want, but what about 10 or 15 years from now?

What about the great swathes of history before now, where maleness was centred and valorised over every other gender? Talk about your slippery slopes...

AubreyTCopeland · Jul 20, 2019

Clearly, you trust the government more than I do.

AubreyTCopeland · Jul 20, 2019

mccardey said:
What about the great swathes of history before now, where maleness centred and valorised over every other gender? Talk about your slippery slopes...

Gender isn't what this is about for some people. The whole point is that people should be able to say/write what they want. Berkley has every right to do what they're doing, but they already have a bad track record for First Amendment protection. Every writer on this forum who lives in that area should be worried.

-Riv- · Jul 20, 2019

AJMarks said:
As someone who loves to write, this terrifies me.

Berkeley bans gendered words like 'manhole' and 'manpower'

As a writer, words are important, they are a power, so having even one taken away is like losing a bit of a diverse group of words (want to cringe a bit look at the City Council Report, specifically page 8). Where does it stop? You can even be arrested for it if your words are deemed 'hate' speech by whoever is in charge. Left, right, liberal, conservative, democrat, republican it shouldn't matter, limiting speech should terrify you if you're a writer.

It's sensational headline, but they aren't addressing anything outside of their own municipal code documents--certainly not creative writing in any form or fashion. They are shifting their own documents to be gender neutral. What is wrong with that? I don't get a threatening vibe from it in the slightest.
:Shrug:

All the best,
Riv

Helix · Jul 20, 2019

AubreyTCopeland said:
Clearly, you trust the government more than I do.

Isn't there something in your Constitution that covers this?

lizmonster · Jul 20, 2019

AubreyTCopeland said:
Gender isn't what this is about for some people. The whole point is that people should be able to say/write what they want. Berkley has every right to do what they're doing, but they already have a bad track record for First Amendment protection. Every writer on this forum who lives in that area should be worried.

Please elaborate on Berkley's bad record. Or any writer you know of who hasn't been able to write the book they want.

mccardey · Jul 20, 2019

AubreyTCopeland said:
Gender isn't what this is about for some people. The whole point is that people should be able to say/write what they want. Berkley has every right to do what they're doing, but they already have a bad track record for First Amendment protection. Every writer on this forum who lives in that area should be worried.

You're being a bit US-centric here (a lot of us aren't from the USA) so you're either going to have to add some back-up sources for this, or explain what makes it worrisome that Berkley thinks using non-gendered names for non-gendered bits of iron is a good thing.

-Riv- · Jul 20, 2019

AubreyTCopeland said:
Gender isn't what this is about for some people. The whole point is that people should be able to say/write what they want. Berkley has every right to do what they're doing, but they already have a bad track record for First Amendment protection. Every writer on this forum who lives in that area should be worried.

The municipal code document shouldn't be "whatever people want to write." That's all this addresses. It's a document, not a law saying people can't use the words.

Kjbartolotta · Jul 20, 2019

Eh, they're updating an outdated colloquialism. What the Berkeley City Council does with their official documents doesn't scare me that much.

ajaye · Jul 20, 2019

Amending the words in a Municipal code to ... "promote equality" is terrifying?

In the words of J Mac, you cannot be serious.

AW Admin · Jul 20, 2019

AJMarks said:
As someone who loves to write, this terrifies me.

Berkeley bans gendered words like 'manhole' and 'manpower'

As a writer, words are important, they are a power, so having even one taken away is like losing a bit of a diverse group of words (want to cringe a bit look at the City Council Report, specifically page 8). Where does it stop? You can even be arrested for it if your words are deemed 'hate' speech by whoever is in charge. Left, right, liberal, conservative, democrat, republican it shouldn't matter, limiting speech should terrify you if you're a writer.

As a writer, the ability to parse what you read is important.

They aren't "banning" a damned thing in the way you're implying.

They're talking about a municipal style guide. It's not like this is revolutionary.

The City Council in Berkeley, Calif., voted this week to ban gender-specific words in the liberal city’s municipal code, clearing the way for the changes to become official.

As a result of the vote on the proposed ordinance, the word “manhole” would be changed to “maintenance hole” in city documents, the news site Berkeleyside reported. “Human effort” would be substituted for the word “manpower,” and “sorority” or “fraternity” would be changed to “collegiate Greek system residence.”

When introduced, the authors of the new ordinance wrote that they were putting the measure forth so as to “promote equality.”

A style guide is pretty common in technical writing, especially for municipal documents. It's a style decision. It doesn't mean, for instance, that someone writing to the city of Berkeley can't use the word manhole. It means that in official documents from the municipality, like city statutes, they're supposed to use maintenance hole.

This is the same kind of stylistic guideline used in style guides in other places who tell writers to use "physician" instead of "lady doctor. "

The sex of the physician is usually immaterial; what's important is that the person is a physician.

A style guide is hardly revolutionary; particularly when it's voted on.

AW Admin · Jul 20, 2019

AubreyTCopeland said:
Gender isn't what this is about for some people. The whole point is that people should be able to say/write what they want. Berkley has every right to do what they're doing, but they already have a bad track record for First Amendment protection. Every writer on this forum who lives in that area should be worried.

1. I suspect you're confusing Berkeley the University with Berkeley the city.

2. Neither are covered by the First Amendment; that's a Federal protection for Federal locations/functions etc.

ap123 · Jul 20, 2019

Oy. I promise you, the sky is not falling because of Berkley's municipal code.

Over the course of my lifetime:
stewardess >>flight attendant
policeman >> police officer
mailman >> postal worker
waiter/waitress >> server
fireman >> firefighter

These are just a few that jump to mind, all kinds of people got all kinds of upset when the newer, more inclusive terms were first introduced, and now, no one raises an eyebrow about any of these.

MaeZe · Jul 20, 2019

AubreyTCopeland said:
Gender isn't what this is about for some people. The whole point is that people should be able to say/write what they want. Berkley has every right to do what they're doing, but they already have a bad track record for First Amendment protection. Every writer on this forum who lives in that area should be worried.

Do you have any ideas on how to shift society toward more gender neutral language?

Schools should introduce gender neutral language to children. That's the best place/time to introduce change. Local governments taking a stand is a good thing, not a bad thing.

It's not a free speech issue Aubrey. It's an equal rights issue. It's hard to legislate social change. But you can chip away at it.

The headline is misleading. Here's what they actually did:

ban gender-specific words in the [snipped*] city’s municipal code,

So they didn't even ban the words in city business, just in the official regulations and laws, as they should.

* snipped political commentary that didn't belong there

MaeZe · Jul 20, 2019

AubreyTCopeland said:
Except that it's a slippery slope. Right now, people can say what they want, but what about 10 or 15 years from now?

Coming back to this because there's an issue you may not understand. When city's revise their municipal codes, it's not John or Mary's work of art, or even John or Mary's work. Code is written by committee in legalese which is almost certainly reviewed by the city's lawyers.

This thread is an example of how influential a poorly written headline or news article can be.

mccardey · Jul 20, 2019

AW Admin said:
A style guide is hardly revolutionary; particularly when it's voted on.

Still, it might have been smarter if they'd changed it to woman-hole covers, and then walked it back. #ambitclaim #babysteps #missedopportunity

Helix · Jul 20, 2019

mccardey said:
Still, it might have been smarter if they'd changed it to woman-hole covers, and then walked it back. #ambitclaim #babysteps #missedopportunity

When cricket captain Rachael Heyhoe Flint was asked whether women cricketers wore boxes, she said they do, but called them manhole covers.

AW Admin · Jul 20, 2019

whanangliscganwringenantspaceswerenaddedalfraedomgangenawey

Banning Words

AJMarks

mccardey

Night_Writer

It's all symbolic.

Helix

socially distancing

AubreyTCopeland

AubreyTCopeland

Helix

socially distancing

mccardey

AubreyTCopeland

AubreyTCopeland

-Riv-

The much appreciated

Helix

socially distancing

lizmonster

Possibly A Mermaid Queen

mccardey

-Riv-

The much appreciated

Kjbartolotta

Potentially has/is dog

ajaye

partial to a gum tree

AW Admin

AW Admin

ap123

Twitching

MaeZe

MaeZe

mccardey

Helix

socially distancing

AW Admin