Questions for Beta-readers and Beta-reader Selections

lizmonster · Jul 19, 2019

K Robert Donovan said:
My target right now is to reduce the book to 170-190K.

For epic fantasy, you can probably query up to 140K without raising too many eyebrows (and with a good query). 170-190K is going to dramatically lengthen your odds. I'm not going to say it's impossible, but eqb is right - a lot of agents will take one look at the word count and never bother with pages.

And yes, there are exceptions, but they're famous because they're rare. For debuts, I can think of Rothfuss and Clarke. I'm sure there are others, but as a percentage of debut fantasies published, they're huge statistical outliers.

Tighten as much as you can. More than you think you should. If you've wrung every excess word out of it and it's still at 170K - your odds are long, but if you can get someone to look at pages, the writing will tell. But wring out those excess words.

KBooks · Jul 19, 2019

K Robert Donovan said:
My target right now is to reduce the book to 170-190K. The first 10K will be stripped from the rewrite of the beginning.

Also when I go to my book shelf, NONE of my books are 100K stories. They are all much longer. Now I am not claiming to be any exception to any rule and I realize that this is a first work. I've read the 100K target all over the place. I just can't see doing it with the book I've created.

If you're serious about the agent/publisher route, your submission should conform to what they're looking to acquire. 170-190K may get you quite a few auto-rejects. Which doesn't mean you can't still self-publish, and use that great artwork there.

cornflake · Jul 19, 2019

K Robert Donovan said:
Can you elaborate on why not to include artwork with a submittal? I also have cover art selected and designed. My thought is that the art gives it that much more of a professional look and might open some doors. This is an honest question, please help me understand the reasoning.

Entirely the opposite -- it makes you look unprofessional, because it's not how publishing works.

Your brother won't be designing the cover, etc. That's for a designer at a publishing house.

It'd be like someone showing up for an interview at an architecture firm with a sample drawing of a house -- that they included tons of furniture selections, fabric swatches, paint coloured into the walls. The architecture firm would think the person didn't know what architects even do, and toss the application without even looking at the actual architectural drawing.

If your brother likes to draw the stuff and you both enjoy it, that's cool, but for the love of god never, ever send it to an agent.

Same with the length. If you're seeking a trade deal, you should really, really have something that is like 120k, maybe 130 max. It's possible you're the one-in-a-million outlier who actually needs a shitton more words, but every single person who overwrites thinks they're that outlier and 99.9% of them are wrong. Post something in SYW and get a bunch of opinions, many from professionals.

K Robert Donovan · Jul 19, 2019

cornflake said:
Entirely the opposite -- it makes you look unprofessional, because it's not how publishing works.

Understood, good info.

cornflake said:
Your brother won't be designing the cover, etc. That's for a designer at a publishing house.

- he didn't do the cover. I chose another artist which would only be used if I go the self-publish route.

cornflake said:
If your brother likes to draw the stuff and you both enjoy it, that's cool, but for the love of god never, ever send it to an agent.

Understood. IF my work is ever acquired, then I would discuss the art for use inside the book. And I realize they may look at it and say, "yeah, yeah, we've got something else in mind"

cornflake said:
Same with the length. If you're seeking a trade deal, you should really, really have something that is like 120k, maybe 130 max. It's possible you're the one-in-a-million outlier who actually needs a shitton more words, but every single person who overwrites thinks they're that outlier and 99.9% of them are wrong. Post something in SYW and get a bunch of opinions, many from professionals.

I recognize that I have a problem. Right now my focus is on self-editing the entire book and reducing as best I can.

As an idea - I think while I move through it, I will generate ideas that may allow me to split the book into two and build a good book 1 and book 2. If I reduce it to 170K, find a good break to split, say 70k and 100K, then work on the revisions for the new 70K book, adding another 30-40K of new material to make a compelling story. Afterward, I'll focus on building a good start for the 100K Book 2.

The feedback I have received is that the story is very good and people want more. I have to make sure my writing craft is suitable.

lizmonster · Jul 19, 2019

K Robert Donovan said:
Understood. IF my work is ever acquired, then I would discuss the art for use inside the book. And I realize they may look at it and say, "yeah, yeah, we've got something else in mind"

You can mention it to your agent, but realistically you're not going to get anywhere with this. Your contract will likely make the publisher responsible for packaging, which includes the cover and any interior illustrations (which are pretty rare for adult books, even epic fantasy, AFAIK). They may show you drafts, or even let you choose between a few options, but artwork isn't going to be your call. (Maps may be an exception.)

cornflake · Jul 19, 2019

I don't want to sound like a downer or anything, but make sure there are at least some people saying that have read the work and are not in any way connected to you.

Every single writer in the world will tell you family and friends will always be all 'omg I can't wait to read it! When will it be out? Can I read a draft? It sounds awesome!' At least 90% of those people will never, ever read it -- even if you give them a free copy of a published work, even if you ask for their feedback as it's so valuable, and they excitedly promise to help. They will. Not. Read. It. They're being nice, and supportive, and a bunch of them probably want to want to read it but ... they're not going to read it.

Even if they do (or skim it, or read part of it, or even read the whole thing), people you know (who are not actual professionals, at the least, and even sometimes them if they're family or etc.), will tell you it's awesome! They can't even think of a way to improve it (maybe except for this vague thing).

As people said above, some people use many betas, some a couple, some none, some (mostly self-pub), go the actual editor route. There's nothing wrong with asking people you know what they think, but (the vast, vast majority of the time) they're not reliable readers in that a. they'll tell you it's great regardless, and b. they're not reading it, no matter how much they insist they can't wait to.

Woollybear · Jul 19, 2019

Sadly, Cornflake is right in my experience.

I've been stunned by some of the individuals who have failed to follow through on their eager promises.

I'm curious and don't want to derail the thread, but after K Robert Donaldson grabs a top agent and lands a great contract/deal, which is certainly possible and I cross my fingers, can't he put all of that artwork onto his author website? That way the fans still have access and can visualize the world as he does.

Or would the publisher want some say on website content, too?

Sanderson has fan art and so on on his websites, IIRC.

-Riv- · Jul 19, 2019

Patty said:
Sadly, Cornflake is right in my experience. I've been stunned by some of the individuals who have failed to follow through on their eager promises.

I'm curious and don't want to derail the thread, but after K Robert Donaldson grabs a top agent and lands a great contract/deal, which is certainly possible and I cross my fingers, can't he put all of that artwork onto his author website? That way the fans still have access and can visualize the world as he does.

Or would the publisher want some say on website content, too?

Sanderson has fan art and so on on his websites, IIRC.

He could definitely put the artwork on an author website, AFAIK. (One he owns and operates, anyway. Only if there was something contractual saying he couldn't would there be a problem, but I'm not aware of that being a practice. Someone else might have other info on that.)

K Robert Donovan · Jul 19, 2019

cornflake said:
I don't want to sound like a downer or anything, but make sure there are at least some people saying that have read the work and are not in any way connected to you.

I completely agree. I personally don't know three of my beta-readers. Of the other three, only one is a close friend. My niece is one, but I see her maybe every two years, and I have instructed her to be brutally honest - tear it to shreds.

cornflake said:
Every single writer in the world will tell you family and friends will always be all 'omg I can't wait to read it! When will it be out? Can I read a draft? It sounds awesome!' At least 90% of those people will never, ever read it -- even if you give them a free copy of a published work, even if you ask for their feedback as it's so valuable, and they excitedly promise to help. They will. Not. Read. It. They're being nice, and supportive, and a bunch of them probably want to want to read it but ... they're not going to read it.

I have three family members and a friend who have read it from start to finish. Three of them have line edited the ms addressing spelling, punctuation, word choice, and have inserted opinions, suggestions, and plot comments along the way. My brother (not the architect) has been brutal with his comments. He is also writing a book. He has chewed up the work along the way, and I have invited more. (Kind of reminds me of our childhood - he's older so you can guess which of us ended up with the bloody nose all the time). But he has been spot on with his critiques and it has helped me immensely.

Patty said:
Sadly, Cornflake is right in my experience. I've been stunned by some of the individuals who have failed to follow through on their eager promises.

Yes, and I've already experienced that. Someone showed enthusiasm, and then I never heard back from them.

Patty said:
I'm curious and don't want to derail the thread, but after K Robert Donaldson grabs a top agent and lands a great contract/deal, which is certainly possible and I cross my fingers, can't he put all of that artwork onto his author website? That way the fans still have access and can visualize the world as he does.

Or would the publisher want some say on website content, too?

Sanderson has fan art and so on on his websites, IIRC.

I am currently exploring creating an authors webpage. A location for an agent or editor and future fans (I can dream) can go to find out a little more about me. Thought was to post some of the art there.

Woollybear · Jul 19, 2019

Cool, I think that's OK but don't really know.

I trust you are aware to not post your actual book there, as that counts as publishing. Occasionally someone pops on this forum and announces their book is on their website as a PDF and they are seeking an agent for it. You can hear the collective dismay from everyone seep out the computer screen.

So don't do that, but the artwork I am less clear on. My daughter is a fantastic artist and has been doing a few character sketches for me.

lizmonster · Jul 19, 2019

Patty said:
So don't do that, but the artwork I am less clear on. My daughter is a fantastic artist and has been doing a few character sketches for me.

FWIW the only thing my publisher has a say over is how much of my book I post on my web site (up to 10% - and please note this is AFTER PUBLICATION, not before!), and how/if I use the cover images. Any images from other people are fine.

Woollybear · Jul 19, 2019

But SYW is still safe for pre-published excerpts (up to 10%), correct? Because it is sort of an access-to-participants forum? This issue has also been a little murky to me.

lizmonster · Jul 19, 2019

Patty said:
But SYW is still safe for pre-published excerpts (up to 10%), correct? Because it is sort of an access-to-participants forum? This issue has also been a little murky to me.

SYW is password protected and is not a public forum. Posting there doesn't count as publishing.

Once you've sold the book to a publisher, they own the copyright and can tell you where you can and can't post materials. But at that point it's not going to much resemble what you have in SYW.

Sage · Jul 19, 2019

With that word count, I'd make sure to get a chapter up on SYW before burning any requests for betas. Some of the amazing critters in SYW will take the time to show you ways you can tighten your prose that you've never even considered. With such a high word count, trimming extra words probably won't get you all the way to where you'll need to be for agent interest, but it will at least get you part of the way (and the longer the book, the more tightening it will cut from the book). Likely you have some chapters and scenes and maybe even a subplot that you can't see that you don't need, but really aren't necessary. But tightening the novel first will get you to a point where betas will be more likely to volunteer to help and can tell you what you don't need. You'd be surprised what you can cut that seems absolutely necessary at the moment.

As for questionnaires, I would suggest only asking for a couple of things you're worried about, if any, when getting betas. Asking for them to look at too many specific things means that you might miss out on the things you don't know are problems, because they focus on those things (especially in a monolith of a book, where they might be looking for faster ways to get through the beta process). That's on top of overwhelming them before they even start.

As for specifying how you want the process of betaing to go (first you get some info, then a section of it, then the rest & you only get a month to read and comment (dude, a 40K MG might take me two months) & so on) will turn off betas. Some betas like to start with a section and then see if it's right for them. I am a "send me the whole thing" beta. I evaluate the opening when reading it fresh, then reevaluate it upon reading the whole thing; I can't do that if you've already seen my comments on the first 2 chapters. Then the next 10. Then the next 10. I feel like you're asking to lose betas over time with this approach too. "I'll just finish this set of 10 chapters, then tell the author I'm done."

And demanding phone calls up front is going to scare many away. Phone calls are going to have to be comfortable for both the beta and the author, and I bet you'll be hard pressed to find a beta who is a) willing to devote their time to a 230K unpolished novel, b) with all comments in a month (including wait time for asking for more chapters), c) following a questionnaire provided by the author, d) and then willing to allow you to call them whenever you feel like it to talk about the critiques they made. At least if it's over e-mail and they decide they're done with it, they can just ignore future e-mails or wait until a time they can deal with answering you.

mccardey · Jul 19, 2019

There's a thing I often want to say to eager new writers, and I never do because it sounds mean and squashing but I will here: try to remember that a lot of people are just polite and friendly. Most experienced writers won't spend a lot of time talking about their WiPs socially because a) that's work and b) they know there's nothing more boring than having to listen to someone rabbitting on at length about a new book/film script they've written/are writing.

Most non-writers don't know much about writing, so when they're faced with the new situation of someone saying 'Actually, I'm a writer. I've just finished a book,' they say 'Cool! I love books! What's it called? I'd love to read it!'

Because that's the other thing - people are nice.

But it's a lot like 'Actually, I've just spent three weeks in Bali taking photos.' 'Oh I'd love to see them!' doesn't mean pull out your phone right now and talk me through each one at length. That really shouldn't happen unless the interest is so pronounced and so great (and I mean really backed up over time by a demonstrated interest in looking at photos of Bali) that it becomes unavoidable.

All of which is to say: Most of the time, people who say 'I'd love to read your (unpublished) novel' are saying 'I don't know you yet, but I'm willing to continue this conversation as long as your phone isn't full of pics of your recent trip to Bali.'

ETA: This isn't directed at the OP's experience, specifically. Just that we do sometimes get questions of the 'Twelve people have offered to beta read for me and I have a system for them to follow have I left anything out?' variety and they're often followed by 'None of my beta readers got back to me and now they're not answering my emails.'

K Robert Donovan · Jul 19, 2019

Sage said:
With that word count, I'd make sure to get a chapter up on SYW before burning any requests for betas. Some of the amazing critters in SYW will take the time to show you ways you can tighten your prose that you've never even considered. With such a high word count, trimming extra words probably won't get you all the way to where you'll need to be for agent interest, but it will at least get you part of the way (and the longer the book, the more tightening it will cut from the book). Likely you have some chapters and scenes and maybe even a subplot that you can't see that you don't need, but really aren't necessary. But tightening the novel first will get you to a point where betas will be more likely to volunteer to help and can tell you what you don't need. You'd be surprised what you can cut that seems absolutely necessary at the moment.
.

Thank you. I got involved with the SYW and submitted my first crit this afternoon. I will continue to review and crit stuff but am holding off on submitting anything. I am rewriting the beginning of the book which should give a start with a 10K cut. I hope to find a lot more areas to trim as I go through the process. I haven't read some of my material for over 6 months so I will have my own reacquaintance with early and middle chapters - Oh yeah, I did write that, look how clever I was !!!CUT!!!

K Robert Donovan · Jul 19, 2019

mccardey said:
There's a thing I often want to say to eager new writers, and I never do because it sounds mean and squashing but I will here: try to remember that a lot of people are just polite and friendly. Most experienced writers won't spend a lot of time talking about their WiPs socially because a) that's work and b) they know there's nothing more boring than having to listen to someone rabbitting on at length about a new book/film script they've written/are writing.

Most non-writers don't know this, and don't know much about writing or what it takes anyway, so when they're faced with the new situation of someone saying 'Actually, I'm a writer. I've just finished a book,' they say 'Cool! I love books! What's it called? I'd love to read it!'

Because that's the other thing - people are nice.

But it's a lot like 'Actually, I've just spent three weeks in Bali taking photos.'

'Oh I'd love to see them!' doesn't mean pull out your phone right now and talk me through each one at length. That really shouldn't happen unless the interest is so pronounced and so great (and I mean really backed up over time by a demonstrated interest in looking at photos of Bali) that it becomes unavoidable.

All of which is to say: Most of the time, people who say 'I'd love to read your (unpublished) novel' are saying 'I don't know you yet, but I'm willing to continue this conversation as long as your phone isn't full of pics of your recent trip to Bali.'

ETA: This isn't directed at the OP's experience, specifically. Just that we do sometimes get questions of the 'Twelve people have offered to beta read for me and I have a system for them to follow have I left anything out?' variety and they're often followed by 'None of my beta readers got back to me and now they're not answering my emails.'

Well said. I laughed as I read it. Thanks for sharing. And I do know exactly what you are talking about.

Sage · Jul 19, 2019

K Robert Donovan said:
Thank you. I got involved with the SYW and submitted my first crit this afternoon. I will continue to review and crit stuff but am holding off on submitting anything. I am rewriting the beginning of the book which should give a start with a 10K cut. I hope to find a lot more areas to trim as I go through the process. I haven't read some of my material for over 6 months so I will have my own reacquaintance with early and middle chapters - Oh yeah, I did write that, look how clever I was !!!CUT!!!

In pre-Scrivener days, I had a file where I threw all my cut scenes, and I'd revisit them from time to time. Now I save them in a non-compile section of the same Scrivener file. That way, they're not gone for me, and if I decided I needed them back (which happened after an R&R once), there they are.

K Robert Donovan · Jul 19, 2019

Sage said:
In pre-Scrivener days, I had a file where I threw all my cut scenes, and I'd revisit them from time to time. Now I save them in a non-compile section of the same Scrivener file. That way, they're not gone for me, and if I decided I needed them back (which happened after an R&R once), there they are.

I actually save a new file every day I write with the current date included. So I have over 300 saved files. I have gone back to past files to pull material that I wanted to recycle. So I'll still have access to the material that I cut.

tiddlywinks · Jul 20, 2019

lizmonster said:
Tighten as much as you can. More than you think you should. If you've wrung every excess word out of it and it's still at 170K - your odds are long, but if you can get someone to look at pages, the writing will tell. But wring out those excess words.

Sage also provided great suggestions similar to liz on cutting, and I'll echo the same thoughts (having also written a tome of an epic fantasy that is currently trunked...because so.many.cliches.).

*Get feedback on your first chapter in SYW. I have a stinking suspicion, based on your original post, that you are a wee bit of an overwriter? Meaning, you've probably got a good 30-40K of fluffy verbiage that can be cut through diligent line edits.

*Before you line edit, think hard on your subplots and characters. Do you REALLY need all of them? Are you going to be missing something vital if you cut out that subplot? Or that 'life of the party' side character? Or that twin brother who never seems to have many lines and you're always trying to figure out what the hell to do with him in the scenes he's in? (Not that I'm speaking from experience or anything.)

*Do you start and end your scenes/chapters at the right points? Those can be great spots to tighten, not only for yammering on too long or too much setup, but also keeping the reader engaged and the pacing at a nice roll.

Just a couple of thoughts to ponder as you sharpen your editing machete. (Editing machetes are very handy when you are an overwriter.)

Woollybear · Jul 21, 2019

tiddlywinks said:
*Do you start and end your scenes/chapters at the right points? Those can be great spots to tighten, not only for yammering on too long or too much setup, but also keeping the reader engaged and the pacing at a nice roll.

Ooooh. In addition to everything else recommended above, yes, scene starts/ends (emphasis mine) is a great place to lose entire paragraphs--usually to better effect.

(And cut pairs of dialog snatches to make conversations more natural. Look for Q/A pairs that you don't actually need, (or snark/snark pairs, or whatever back-and-forth fails to advance the scene), and snip away!)

Earthling · Jul 22, 2019

I would always want writer betas as well as reader betas. In fact, I don't bother with reader betas anymore, now that I have trusted critique partners. My feedback with reader betas has always - without exception - being of the "This is great! I can't wait to buy it!" variety. Usually a one-liner that doesn't offer any criticism you can act on. I'd like to say this is because my MSs are perfect and need no improvement, but I can confirm this isn't the case.

I like having specific questions to answer when I beta, although 20-30 is too much. I would cut it down to up to 10. I hate phone calls and would never agree to one for a beta read. I could barely bring myself to accept a phone call from agents!

Questions for Beta-readers and Beta-reader Selections

lizmonster

Possibly A Mermaid Queen

KBooks

cornflake

practical experience, FTW

K Robert Donovan

Wishing Upon a Star...

lizmonster

Possibly A Mermaid Queen

cornflake

practical experience, FTW

Woollybear

-Riv-

The much appreciated

K Robert Donovan

Wishing Upon a Star...

Woollybear

lizmonster

Possibly A Mermaid Queen

Woollybear

lizmonster

Possibly A Mermaid Queen

Sage

Supreme Guessinator

mccardey

K Robert Donovan

Wishing Upon a Star...

K Robert Donovan

Wishing Upon a Star...

Sage

Supreme Guessinator

K Robert Donovan

Wishing Upon a Star...

tiddlywinks

Chaser of Shineyyyy Plot Bunnies

Woollybear

Earthling

I come in peace