"In Europe, even an atheist is a Christian"

Introversion · Jul 14, 2019

According to László Kiss-Rigó, the bishop of Szeged in Hungary. He clearly uses "Christian" to mean, "white and conservative". Get that, non-Christians? Doesn't matter if you don't believe in the Christian god; if you're white, you should be on the Christian "side".

The Guardian said:
But there’s one problem with all this: the policies of Orbán’s government don’t seem to be particularly Christian. One recent law saw the criminalisation of homelessness, penalising the street sleepers who are a frequent sight in the underpasses and courtyards of Budapest, rather than dealing with the problem’s causes. Asylum seekers are held in shipping containers in special transit zones near Hungary’s border fence, and the country’s policy of denying food to failed asylum seekers was branded “an unprecedented human rights violation in 21st-century Europe” by a human rights group. Government-controlled media often uses dehumanising rhetoric about migrants and refugees.

...

Not all of Hungary’s religious leaders feel the same. Gábor Iványi, a Methodist priest with a flowing, white beard who runs a homeless shelter in the scruffy eighth district of Budapest, was formerly on good terms with Orbán and even officiated at his (second, religious) wedding ceremony, but now decries the prime minster’s policies as being the opposite of Christian teachings. Last summer, he tried to distribute food to people being held in the transit zones, but was denied access. Some critics suggest that “Christian values” is code for something else altogether. “There’s just no doubt that this is organised as a way of saying that ‘Christianity’ means ‘white conservative Europe’. It’s a trope. Say the world ‘Christian’ and it says everything else that you want to say,” said Michael Ignatieff, rector of the Central European University, which is moving part of its operations from Budapest to Vienna after the government denied it accreditation.

Kiss-Rigó would perhaps agree. He conceded that Hungarians are much less religious than Poles, for example, but defined “Christian values” in vague cultural terms: as much about shutting out the Muslim “other” as about any sense of personal religious belief. His favourite author is the British anti-Islam commentator Douglas Murray, and he said Europe was in danger of being turned into a “easily manipulable faceless mass” by unspecified dark forces.

“I’m not saying all of this because I hope that next Sunday more people will come to church. In Europe, even an atheist is a Christian,” he said.

Bolding above is mine, in this quote from an article about the rise and popularity of rightwing Hungarian leader Viktor Orbán, whose tenure has been driven by playing to the same xenophobic fears of rightwing US Christians of "the dangerous other", and of their being persecuted for their beliefs (which is 1. a lie and 2. not what non-Christians rightly condemn them for).

It's difficult to say whether Trump consciously apes people like Orbán? Or whether this is just an unfortunate case of like-minded authoritarians independently resurrecting the same formulas that worked well in the past?

In any case, this kind of speech is dangerous. This plea to "save our our culture". This is why I fear rightwing Christian extremists in the US today far more than Muslim extremists -- there are far more of the former, and their growing and increasingly overt influence in our politics, courts, military and police mean they're in position to do real and lasting damage to our democracy. Rightwing Christian "culture" is racist, xenophobic, misogynistic, regressive -- can't really think of anything good to say about it.

As a progressive atheist, not sure what to do about this. My vote seems increasingly like bailing against the tide. Would like to emigrate to Canada, where they're at least less obviously religious, but believe I'm too old to be approved. Are we doomed to repeat the horrid experiences of past religious wars and genocides? Because it often feels that way -- like, not only do few people bother to understand history, but so many now actively believe Actual History is Fake News. What to do?

Lyv · Jul 14, 2019

I'm in the US. My husband and I are atheists. I've been saying for years, "The GOP will put atheists like us in camps if they can get away with it." Well, they're finding out they can do literally anything and showing us that for them, there is no bottom. I've been saying it a long time, soon after I really understood just how hard they're pushing for a Christian theocracy, and now we've slid a long way toward being one. It used to sound far-fetched, but it sounds less so now.

(I understand that white, well-off atheists are pretty far down the list, and I am fighting for those who are more vulnerable, but I always figured they'd get around to us).

I've been fighting by standing up for separation of church and state, supporting organizations that do the same, and on and on. Have gotten mocked and harassed for it, even by those Christians who are the first to insist they aren't like *those* Christians. Who are always very concerned that they aren't painted with the same brush as *those* Christians. In fight after fight over some violation of separation of church and state, it's only atheists challenging them, and when those atheists start getting death threats, all the Christians who are so concerned about not being lumped in with those making the death threats are nowhere to be found. If you haven't stood up--and I mean in person and loudly--for separation of church and state, you're part of the problem. And it will be your problem, because your Christianity won't protect you.

Chris P · Jul 14, 2019

Introversion said:
It's difficult to say whether Trump consciously apes people like Orbán? Or whether this is just an unfortunate case of like-minded authoritarians independently resurrecting the same formulas that worked well in the past?

Symptoms of the same disease, I think. Trump isn't going to say anything he didn't think up himself, or can convince anyone that he came up with himself.

I've read (Niall Ferguson?) that much of the current anti-Islam (and antisemitism) in Europe and the US is more about culture than it is about religion. I don't think the haters in Europe or the US really care which book people read or whether they pray on Friday, Saturday or Sunday. It's more about these other-looking people speaking an unintelligible language with unusual customs and values who have a higher birth rate than European whites getting access to the benefits of citizenship, jobs, and intermarriage. Latinxs are predomonantly Christian (Catholic or--increasingly--evangelical "born agains") and the racism they face in the US is therefore cultural.

On another note, the dogma taught in history has been that racism increases in times of economic troubles, as those in power try to protect their stake of the economy from racial others. However, if the US economy is doing as well as people say, this no longer holds true.

cbenoi1 · Jul 15, 2019

Chris P said:
On another note, the dogma taught in history has been that racism increases in times of economic troubles, as those in power try to protect their stake of the economy from racial others. However, if the US economy is doing as well as people say, this no longer holds true.

It's all fun and games.

Fox News hosts laugh off Trump's racist attacks on Dems
https://www.cnn.com/videos/media/20...y-sot-vpx.cnn/video/playlists/business-media/

-cb

Thomas Vail · Jul 22, 2019

Chris P said:
On another note, the dogma taught in history has been that racism increases in times of economic troubles, as those in power try to protect their stake of the economy from racial others. However, if the US economy is doing as well as people say, this no longer holds true.

The economy is doing well, but you wouldn't know it to look at the people who aren't neck deep in the incestuous free for all of top corporate executives. Continuous erosion of workers' protections and stability, stagnant pay (we'll see how much the push for actual livable minimum wages gets. I'll keep my fingers crossed).while the top of the scale rakes in all the benefits and denies it to everyone else. It's all the fun of economic down times year round!

cbenoi1 · Jul 22, 2019

Thomas Vail said:
The economy is doing well, but you wouldn't know it to look at the people who aren't neck deep in the incestuous free for all of top corporate executives.

That's because you are clueless as to how the New Economics(tm) works. It's simple. The rich and corporations get huge tax breaks which they then pass down to the lower echelons of society. Everybody benefits.

The hard part is finding a point in the history of mankind when this concept actually worked. But that's not important for now. It's squad sniping time.

-cb

Introversion · Jul 22, 2019

cbenoi1 said:
The hard part is finding a point in the history of mankind when this concept actually worked.

It’s never worked, but only because we didn’t try hard enough.

frimble3 · Jul 22, 2019

It's never worked because the qualities that make rich people don't always make good people.

Introversion · Jul 23, 2019

Oh ye of little faith! We just gotta cut taxes harder! Negative tax rates on the job creator class!

Diana Hignutt · Jul 23, 2019

Yep, obviously the answer is that we just haven't given the rich enough of the poor people's money. Just a little more might do the trick...

Stytch · Jul 23, 2019

Chris P said:
On another note, the dogma taught in history has been that racism increases in times of economic troubles, as those in power try to protect their stake of the economy from racial others. However, if the US economy is doing as well as people say, this no longer holds true.

I wish more people had pointed that out every time the words "economic anxiety" were used to explain some of the Trump voters. Like, NOW it's a joke, you see someone act racist at a Trump rally and say, "yes, they seem really anxious about the economy," but the truth is it's the same thing for them. If you're already racist, economic anxiety is gonna make you ... more racist. I just wish I knew how to slow the momentum. The only examples I know of where countries recover from this thinking (somewhat) had to go through big hella wars and such to get to the other side.

"In Europe, even an atheist is a Christian"

Introversion

Pie aren't squared, pie are round!

Lyv

I meant to do that.

Chris P

Likes metaphors mixed, not stirred

cbenoi1

Thomas Vail

What?

cbenoi1

Introversion

Pie aren't squared, pie are round!

frimble3

Heckuva good sport

Introversion

Pie aren't squared, pie are round!

Diana Hignutt

Very Tired

Stytch