Learned by overwriting, now what?

litdawg · Jul 7, 2019

I'm thinking about overwriting and craft. I like to leave emotions up to the events and reader interpretations. Too much character commentary gets in the way of reader engagement in my opinion. However, some critters and beta readers have asked for more explicit expressions of character feelings, reactions, and thoughts. I've used my time on AW to improve those facets of my writing. However, I just received a strongly worded rejection from an agent who had requested my full manuscript on the basis of work I did before discovering AW. His critique was that the revised manuscript displayed too much overwriting--basically, my emotional commentary was over the top for him, along with redundant descriptions. So now I'm looking for a way to integrate emotional content without being too on-the-nose about the emotional life of characters.

Anyone else have the experience of improving one facet of craft only to compromise another? I need to get back to the place where writing is fluid and spontaneous again without losing the new skills that came from being hyper-conscious of how I was writing.

Related: general strategies for getting readers to connect with a character's thoughts/inner life without giving frequent access to the character's thoughts?

For what it's worth, the agent was assessing my manuscript on the basis of military sci fi, which is only part of what I'm writing. The mss is genre fluid, I guess.

cornflake · Jul 7, 2019

Same as bookisms in tags -- have you tried showing things through dialogue, rather than explaining to the reader?

litdawg · Jul 7, 2019

cornflake said:
Same as bookisms in tags -- have you tried showing things through dialogue, rather than explaining to the reader?

Yes, but I give only physical cues as to the tone of dialogue--pauses, sighs, arched eyebrows, pursed lips, flaring nostrils, narrowed eyes, furrowed brow, etc. Those seemed insufficient for initial readers.

cornflake · Jul 7, 2019

litdawg said:
Yes, but I give only physical cues as to the tone of dialogue--pauses, sighs, arched eyebrows, pursed lips, flaring nostrils, narrowed eyes, furrowed brow, etc. Those seemed insufficient for initial readers.

I'm suggesting you don't do that.

ap123 · Jul 7, 2019

The dialogue itself should be giving cues to the tone, the specific words and phrasing chosen.

Elle. · Jul 7, 2019

Writing is all a delicate balance so it is easy in trying to reel something in to go too much into another direction. When you mentioned that the emotional commentary was over the top for him, along with redundant descriptions, that could mean over-written in the sense of you don't know when to stop. Such as the emotion was conveyed with sentence 1 but you tacked about 4 more to it repeating the same thing with in different ways, there might be also issues with over-explaining instead of trusting the reader to make the connection.

Unfortunately it is quite hard to say without reading the work. Have you thought about posting a specific exempt where you've been told you it is over-written.

litdawg said:
Yes, but I give only physical cues as to the tone of dialogue--pauses, sighs, arched eyebrows, pursed lips, flaring nostrils, narrowed eyes, furrowed brow, etc. Those seemed insufficient for initial readers.

Those strike me as more generic facial ticks that can mean everything and anything.

Woollybear · Jul 7, 2019

Hi litdawg--Two thoughts. Take 'em or leave 'em.

(1) Look at your emotional line... as a line. Does it make sense on its own? Does your character go from one emotional state to another in a realistic way (as a result of some stimuli) and at a realistic pace?

(I see some writers at group throw emotions into their work to 'raise the emotions' without any thought to realism. Characters have an emotional journey and it should follow a path.)

(2) One reason tics, while used in published work, might be less satisfying than other actions is because they only do one thing. A single action can potentially achieve at least two things.

He clapped to show his approval. (We know he approves.)

He threw his stein to the floor to show his approval. (We know he approves, and we know he has a stein.)

Basically, I realized (a couple days ago) that an action that only involves a character's body parts is almost always less satisfying (to me) than an action that involves a prop. And nods/sighs/etc only involve body parts.

She unzipped her flight suit. He swept the papers off the desk. Etc.

Of course, a nod in the right spot can be very powerful, so this is art.

litdawg · Jul 7, 2019

cornflake said:
I'm suggesting you don't do that.

Ok. I’ll try that

litdawg · Jul 7, 2019

Patty said:
Basically, I realized (a couple days ago) that an action that only involves a character's body parts is almost always less satisfying (to me) than an action that involves a prop. And nods/sighs/etc only involve body parts.

She unzipped her flight suit. He swept the papers off the desk. Etc.

Of course, a nod in the right spot can be very powerful, so this is art.

This sounds promising too. I’ll experiment with it. Thanks!

litdawg · Jul 7, 2019

Elle. said:
Unfortunately it is quite hard to say without reading the work. Have you thought about posting a specific exempt where you've been told you it is over-written.

Well, unfortunately, I’ve done exactly that back in March. The first posted version In SYW sci fi was what the agent loved. A version close to the end of that thread was rejected in thunder.

ap123 · Jul 7, 2019

First off, if this is feedback from only one agent, that agent is one person, agents aren't monoliths. Others may feel differently, but first stop and think about whether or not the agent's comments ring true/make sense to you.

litdawg said:
Well, unfortunately, I’ve done exactly that back in March. The first posted version In SYW sci fi was what the agent loved. A version close to the end of that thread was rejected in thunder.

There's a lot of great advice to be shared here on AW, this is true. It's also true that sometimes too many cooks spoil the pot. As above when looking at the agent's feedback, when reading feedback here on AW, or in any writing group, before rewriting to please someone else, think about whether or not it makes sense to you, is the advice purely technical/craft (staying in POV, grammar, plotholes, etc) or is it subject to preference, and is it in line with the vision you have for your mss.

Posting in SYW can be incredibly valuable for a variety of reasons, but ultimately, outside of the basics, it is all subjective and decisions are yours.

Woollybear · Jul 7, 2019

Litdawg--re the different version--Yuck. So sorry to hear this. I went to that thread and reread version 1 and version last.

The differences I see are that "version 1" has action, dialog, and setting balanced. i don't have a sense of Taurion in that version, but I do see the scene moving. I'm guessing this is what is meant by starting with in media res. "Version last" has eight paragraphs of backstory and information before dialog, and those are meant to ground us into the character.

I got no advice at this point but there are definitely people who want the action and explosions and dialog straight out of the gate. I personally find those sorts of stories generally lower on the emotional scale but higher on the stakes and action scale.

JJ Litke · Jul 7, 2019

This quote by Neil Gaiman: “Remember: when people tell you something’s wrong or doesn’t work for them, they are almost always right. When they tell you exactly what they think is wrong and how to fix it, they are almost always wrong.”

If several people aren't caring for a piece, there's likely something wrong with it. But, their suggestions about how to fix it are like throwing darts in the dark--none of them may be hitting the target for what you should actually do.

I've experienced this myself, and it's frustrating. You learn a lot about how to interpret and implement feedback, though. That'll be a high-value skill once you're working with an editor.

Elle. · Jul 7, 2019

litdawg said:
Well, unfortunately, I’ve done exactly that back in March. The first posted version In SYW sci fi was what the agent loved. A version close to the end of that thread was rejected in thunder.

Sorry to hear that. I've had a quick look and it seems that you went from one extreme to the other between the two version. The first one did have some vagueness but in an attempt to compensate the last version that too much explanation.

ap123 said:
First off, if this is feedback from only one agent, that agent is one person, agents aren't monoliths. Others may feel differently, but first stop and think about whether or not the agent's comments ring true/make sense to you.

There's a lot of great advice to be shared here on AW, this is true. It's also true that sometimes too many cooks spoil the pot. As above when looking at the agent's feedback, when reading feedback here on AW, or in any writing group, before rewriting to please someone else, think about whether or not it makes sense to you, is the advice purely technical/craft (staying in POV, grammar, plotholes, etc) or is it subject to preference, and is it in line with the vision you have for your mss.

Posting in SYW can be incredibly valuable for a variety of reasons, but ultimately, outside of the basics, it is all subjective and decisions are yours.

^^^THIS

I believe it is a skill needed as a writer to be able to differentiate the feedback that is useful, what makes sense and how it fits what you are trying to achieve. For example, in short stories I often don't bother with characters' names even for the MC so when I get feedback that people find the lack of names off putting I dismiss it because I will never satisfy every reader, same when I get feedback that there is not enough character description, but I know I have a tendency to sometimes over-write so when someone tells me to pull it back in some place when I will analyse those and see if there is a need for a change. So it's all about knowing your work, your weaknesses and use or discard feedback appropriately.

I hope this helps.

MaeZe · Jul 7, 2019

JJ Litke said:
This quote by Neil Gaiman: “Remember: when people tell you something’s wrong or doesn’t work for them, they are almost always right. When they tell you exactly what they think is wrong and how to fix it, they are almost always wrong.”

If several people aren't caring for a piece, there's likely something wrong with it. But, their suggestions about how to fix it are like throwing darts in the dark--none of them may be hitting the target for what you should actually do.

I've experienced this myself, and it's frustrating. You learn a lot about how to interpret and implement feedback, though. That'll be a high-value skill once you're working with an editor.

This is so true. I've learned to say thank you and ignore some of the advice in my critique group. It's so annoying when it appears they would love to rewrite your story in their own image.

In SYW I've often seen advice all over the board. Without knowing the critiquers one would be hard pressed to know whose advice was good.

One should be able to say why something is wrong and be very careful the critique is not about what you personally like or don't like.

When I read this from the OP:

some critters and beta readers have asked for more explicit expressions of character feelings, reactions, and thoughts.

The first thing that comes to mind is the opposite. Don't hit the reader over the head with it. And it sounds like they are advising just that.

But I don't know what they were critiquing. If they specifically asked for "more explicit expressions of ... feelings" one has to wonder if they they were saying, have your character say how they feel. What you want is the character to reveal how they feel not tell the reader outright.

MaeZe · Jul 7, 2019

That's cute, Elle: the porridge was too hot; the porridge was too cold; this porridge is just right. :tongue

Woollybear · Jul 7, 2019

... some critters and beta readers have asked for more explicit expressions of character feelings, reactions, and thoughts.

Because we all try to avoid adverbs, (arguably bad advice, but there you have it) my characters fall emotionally flat, and a simple way to spice them up is the occasional adverb at the beginning of an action.

Despairingly, she unzipped her flight suit.

Excitedly, she unzipped her flight suit.

Painfully, she unzipped her flight suit.

Naughtily, she unzipped ...

Oh you get the idea.

MaeZe · Jul 7, 2019

Patty said:
Because we all try to avoid adverbs, (arguably bad advice, but there you have it) my characters fall emotionally flat, and a simple way to spice them up is the occasional adverb at the beginning of an action.

Despairingly, she unzipped her flight suit.

Excitedly, she unzipped her flight suit.

Painfully, she unzipped her flight suit.

Naughtily, she unzipped ...

Oh you get the idea.

Not saying no adverbs, just suggesting how you might use them less blatantly. And I know you were just making examples to demonstrate your point.

Despair: She closed the door, slumped in the chair, head hung down as she unzipped her flight suit.

Excitement: "Yees!!!" Flight suit unzipped and off in seconds, Mary was already into her closet flipping through the sexiest dresses.

Pain: It hurt to bend her arm. She could barely hold the zipper. She wished she could have pulled the zipper down with her teeth the same way she'd opened the envelope.

Naughty: Her tongue licked her upper lip ever so slightly. She unzipped her flight suit not breaking eye contact with him.

litdawg · Jul 8, 2019

These are all very helpful responses. Thank you! I am gathering the energy to revisit the early parts of my manuscript and see how I can regain some of the clarity while keeping the emotional engagement. I’m also camping for a few days, and I won’t be hiking up for signal for a few days. I’ll check in on this thread as soon as I’m back in civilization.

indianroads · Jul 8, 2019

Patty said:
Because we all try to avoid adverbs, (arguably bad advice, but there you have it) my characters fall emotionally flat, and a simple way to spice them up is the occasional adverb at the beginning of an action.

Despairingly, she unzipped her flight suit.

Excitedly, she unzipped her flight suit.

Painfully, she unzipped her flight suit.

Naughtily, she unzipped ...

Oh you get the idea.

There are other ways to go than liberally sprinkling adverbs throughout your story.

She sighed and slowly unzipped her flight suit. Patty told her it was a costume party... and now she's probably laughing like a loon.

maggiee19 · Jul 8, 2019

This thread is interesting to me, being I'm an overwriter myself.

Clairels · Jul 8, 2019

litdawg said:
Yes, but I give only physical cues as to the tone of dialogue--pauses, sighs, arched eyebrows, pursed lips, flaring nostrils, narrowed eyes, furrowed brow, etc. Those seemed insufficient for initial readers.

If you look back at say, 19th century literature, you won't find much of this. There's a theory that the reason it is showing up and more and more in written work is because of the influence of TV and movies. We're used to extreme close-up shots of actors who use every little nuance of their faces to convey the emotion of the scene. On screen, it works. On paper, it rarely succeeds in conveying what it's meant to convey and instead ends up as just annoying filler.

Woollybear · Jul 8, 2019

If the question is, how do I increase the emotional impact of my story, then my answer is:

There are many ways to do this. Learn as many tools as you can, and balance them.

If the question is how do I increase the emotional impact of my story without overwriting, then my answer is,

The most efficient tool I have learned to date is to place an adverb at the beginning of a sentence. In fact, I learned this tool from reading widely. But as is true in all areas of life, balance is important.

Patty said:
Because we all try to avoid adverbs, (arguably bad advice, but there you have it) my characters fall emotionally flat, and a simple way to spice them up is the occasional adverb at the beginning of an action.

Despairingly, she unzipped her flight suit.

Excitedly, she unzipped her flight suit.

Painfully, she unzipped her flight suit.

Naughtily, she unzipped ...

Oh you get the idea.

Any of those four examples has a different tone, because of a single word--and each has more emotional weight than simply saying: She unzipped her flight suit (which is emotionally blank. )

Of course, if one wants to provide more richness and depth, or play with pacing of the particular area in the manuscript, or what have you, one can write without any adverbs at all. That would be a different tool. One could write entire paragraphs about the depth of an emotion a character feels! Each tool comes with pros and cons.

One could, for example, change those adverbs to non-adverbs by saying "In despair, she unzipped her flight suit." -- Two words instead of one, still nicely efficient, no adverbs (Oh thank God!), and now we are in silly land. But there are tools, and tools, and tools.

But the point was that a single word can shade an action with emotion. This was not intended as a call to start using excessive adverbs as a means to write an emotional story. That would be a bad plan, and a mistake. In my opinion.

JJ Litke · Jul 8, 2019

Patty said:
Because we all try to avoid adverbs, (arguably bad advice, but there you have it) my characters fall emotionally flat, and a simple way to spice them up is the occasional adverb at the beginning of an action.

Despairingly, she unzipped her flight suit.

Excitedly, she unzipped her flight suit.

Painfully, she unzipped her flight suit.

Naughtily, she unzipped ...

Oh you get the idea.

Now I kind of want to read the rest of this short story.

MaeZe · Jul 8, 2019

JJ Litke said:
Now I kind of want to read the rest of this short story.

Learned by overwriting, now what?

litdawg

Helping those who help themselves

cornflake

practical experience, FTW

litdawg

Helping those who help themselves

cornflake

practical experience, FTW

ap123

Twitching

Elle.

Woollybear

litdawg

Helping those who help themselves

litdawg

Helping those who help themselves

litdawg

Helping those who help themselves

ap123

Twitching

Woollybear

JJ Litke

People are not wearing enough hats

Elle.

MaeZe

MaeZe

Woollybear

MaeZe

litdawg

Helping those who help themselves

indianroads

Wherever I go, there I am.

maggiee19

Clairels

Born at sea

Woollybear

JJ Litke

People are not wearing enough hats

MaeZe