• Basic Writing questions is not a crit forum. All crits belong in Share Your Work

Creative writing courses, worth bothering?

g_eke

Kind Benefactor
Registered
Joined
Feb 6, 2019
Messages
46
Reaction score
3
Location
UK
I'm sure this is another age-old question, possibly one that can only illicit subjective/anecdotal/"it depends" type answers. Nevertheless, I'd still be interested to hear people's views on whether attended creative writing courses are worth pursuing in order to improve the quality of one's writing. I had it in my mind that once I'd finished my first first draft, I'd dedicate some time to looking into the nuts and bolts of writing as a craft, possibly with some formal training via evening classes. However, I'm now wondering if that could be a big fat waste of time and cash that might be better spent simply reading, critiquing, doing exercises, practicing, and generally finding my own way. In addition, there are loads of online resources these days one can dip into on an ad hoc basis to improve one's work, not least this forum itself!

So, have others undertaken formal creative writing training and if so would you recommend it? I should mention that I have no interest in reading my work aloud to a group, or in the social aspects of joining an evening class (I have precious little time to socialise as it is).

Thanks, writers!
 

millymollymo

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 12, 2013
Messages
124
Reaction score
5
Location
Somewhere in Yorkshire
Website
www.millymollymo.com
I've been on a few different types of courses, online and in uni/class. At first it was just to figure the basics out...then it was 'I need to understand this better.' You wouldn't book the first math class you found online and expect it to give you an indepth angle in physics.
Know what you want to improve on. Target that first. Every writer is different. Some work better from guidebooks, some prefer tutor-led, others enjoy socially mixing. Know what works for you.

Reading helps bed down the learning. You spot the techniques - or aspire to do similar.
Always read.

Just noticed you're in the UK. There are plenty of courses/events cheap and otherwise that will stretch your skills. Check out local workshops for a start.
 
Last edited:

Elle.

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 10, 2018
Messages
1,272
Reaction score
734
Location
United Kingdom
I think creative courses can be useful, they are not for everyone and they are benefits to them.

The first thing to establish is what you want to get out of a writing course and then set out to find the course that would deliver that: do you want online or face-to-face? Do you want a course that explain the fundamentals and make you practise? Do you want a course where you will get peer review of your work or do you want dedicated tutor feedback? What's your budget?

I did a mentoring course because I wanted dedicated feedback from a professional rather than peer review and also work with someone who got my writing. My tutor used to be an editor at one of the big 5 and she also had a MA in Creative writing and I had a long chat with her before deciding to book the course. It didn't make my writing better per se, but I believe that I achieve progress in a year that would have taken several years on my own to get to that same level. So in my case it was beneficial.
 

Clovitide

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 29, 2017
Messages
566
Reaction score
397
Location
Dark Side of the Moon
I've taken a couple, and what I've really gained from them is a community of like minded folk. Mist of mine were a workshop type class, so I was able get my work reviewed by 17 others, but the bulk of the class was spent with me reading/critiquing. We did go over some basic lessons, then some more elaborate ones by reading short stories in correspondence with craft articles. I enjoyed it.

I also took a novel writing class I loved immensely. That one got me really motivated to write and had me finish a partial draft and an entire outline.

IMO, it's the community that's beneficial. Most of the other stuff you can learn in your own, but I personally thrive in a class room setting.
 

Carrie in PA

Write All The Words!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 25, 2006
Messages
1,942
Reaction score
1,078
Location
in my own little world
I've taken lots of classes. Some are helpful, some less so, but I've found value in all of them. Sometimes the value is in reinforcing grammar mechanics (illicit vs elicit :tongue ) or specific craft subjects (setting/dialogue) or general related subjects (mind mapping/organizing files/goal setting/Scrivener tricks). Sometimes the value is in spending my precious time with other writers who understand the idiosyncrasies of being a writer, which can, in turn, inspire me to be more productive on my own. I've made many good writer friends through classes and workshops, several of whom have become invaluable beta readers and critiquers.

If you go into them with an open mind, you'll learn something, even if it's not quite what you anticipated. If you go into them already having decided they're a waste of time, you probably won't. Which is kind of how your post reads to me, so if that's your feeling, don't waste the money and time. You may benefit more from a critique group or joining a professional organization rather than taking a workshop.
 

lorna_w

Hybrid Grump
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 25, 2011
Messages
3,262
Reaction score
3,238
So, have others undertaken formal creative writing training and if so would you recommend it? I should mention that I have no interest in reading my work aloud to a group, or in the social aspects of joining an evening class (I have precious little time to socialise as it is).

Thanks, writers!

I have an MFA (utterly worthless except it allowed me to teach at universities) and went to summer workshops that ranged from pretty good to worthless, and I taught a few CW courses both in community ed systems and at universities. I'd come down on the side of "they're going to be not very valuable and they could be terribly destructive."

But considering what you said at the end...that's all most CW courses are in the USA! It's critique and socializing. So you'd be much better off checking out a library book on the craft of writing every few weeks and doing exercises, or hunting for exercises online. And you'd save untold money.
 

Cindyt

Gettin wiggy wit it
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 14, 2016
Messages
4,826
Reaction score
1,954
Location
The Sticks
Website
growingupwolf.blogspot.com
I've had several creative writing courses and workshops that taught me the elements of writing, but it was reading fiction and writing a newspaper article that went toward how to write something that readers want to read. That said, only you can shape the quality of your story.
 
Last edited:

g_eke

Kind Benefactor
Registered
Joined
Feb 6, 2019
Messages
46
Reaction score
3
Location
UK
Thanks for the words of wisdom, folks!

I've been on a few different types of courses, online and in uni/class. At first it was just to figure the basics out...then it was 'I need to understand this better.' You wouldn't book the first math class you found online and expect it to give you an indepth angle in physics.
Know what you want to improve on. Target that first. Every writer is different. Some work better from guidebooks, some prefer tutor-led, others enjoy socially mixing. Know what works for you.

Reading helps bed down the learning. You spot the techniques - or aspire to do similar.
Always read.

Just noticed you're in the UK. There are plenty of courses/events cheap and otherwise that will stretch your skills. Check out local workshops for a start.

Good point. Identifying what specific areas I need to improve on could be my next step. I undertook this project with the healthy attitude that my writing sucks (I'm at peace with this, it really is terrible at the moment!), and that when draft #1 were done I'd seek out some general guidance in *all* areas, from plotting and pacing to prose and punctuation. I fully intend to ramp up my critiquing and general reading, but in terms of courses, the question was about whether the paid-for, formal variety would be essential to complement these other activities, or whether I could make equivalent gains by studying craft books, using SYW, buddying up with alpha-readers, diving into free online courses, etc. In a nutshell, investing the same energies but saving the cash and travel time.

Do you want a course that explain the fundamentals and make you practise?

Yes, I think this was what I had in mind. Something like the foundations of good writing, focusing each week on a different core aspect. Also, I was thinking that in terms of peer review, the anonymity of the internet might actually be better than face-to-face in garnering brutally honest feedback.

IMO, it's the community that's beneficial. Most of the other stuff you can learn in your own, but I personally thrive in a class room setting.

Me too, to an extent. An online community like AW could be valid substitute though, possibly?

Sometimes the value is in spending my precious time with other writers who understand the idiosyncrasies of being a writer, which can, in turn, inspire me to be more productive on my own. I've made many good writer friends through classes and workshops, several of whom have become invaluable beta readers and critiquers.

If you go into them with an open mind, you'll learn something, even if it's not quite what you anticipated. If you go into them already having decided they're a waste of time, you probably won't. Which is kind of how your post reads to me, so if that's your feeling, don't waste the money and time. You may benefit more from a critique group or joining a professional organization rather than taking a workshop.

Thanks Carrie, I'd not really considered that a face-to-face class might help with something as basic as motivation. It's a very good point. And I'd perhaps naively assumed I could find a beta reader or two online with relative ease, if I offered the same service in return. Maybe that's not the case, I haven't reached the looking stage yet.

I'm undecided about a physical class, hence asking what experiences you folks had had. I was all set to sign up for a basic introduction to creative writing evening class, then a seed of doubt was sown when I read one person's view that they were a waste of time. I'm that suggestible!

(illicit vs elicit :tongue )

d'oh! :)
 

Maryn

At Sea
Staff member
Super Moderator
Moderator
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
55,681
Reaction score
25,859
What I gained from creative writing courses is experience with critique, which is useful for my own writing once I'm distant enough from it. While I enjoyed the sense of community (and the critique group that formed after the class ended), the biggie for me was seeing flaws in what appeared to be adequate writing, and helping the writer--sometimes me--do better.
 

lonestarlibrarian

senior bean supervisor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 30, 2009
Messages
756
Reaction score
169
I took a creative writing class online. It was someone who was putting together a course, and needed some volunteers to guinea-pig it on before she unleashed it on paid students.

The thing that I found most useful was that it made me get into a routine with a deadline, and it made me experiment with structures I wouldn't have normally tried. So it expanded my horizons, but the best part was that it made me focus.

I do like the comment above regarding how they can be constructive vs destructive. I know a few people who tried majoring in creative writing in undergrad... and they had a desire to write speculative fiction, but the professors were more interested in literary writing. So they were very unhappy--- much like my friends who majored in art because they enjoyed fantasy/fanart, but all the class projects tried to get them to conform to a different style of art. In both cases, they might have enjoyed themselves more if they had been able to recognize the overlapping elements that they could bring from their coursework to what they really wanted to do privately, and used those elements to strengthen their work outside of class projects. But instead, they found it boring and restrictive.
 

novelgirl

YA Fantasy Novelist
Registered
Joined
Jan 12, 2012
Messages
33
Reaction score
0
Location
New Orleans
Website
www.jennadevillier.wordpress.com
I've only attended one, a six week course at the University of California, Berkeley in 2013. I found it useful because I was only 2 years into "seriously writing" at the time. Not to mention the atmosphere of the school and environment itself was inspiring to me. It was my first workshop-type experience, which was terrifying but ultimately rewarding. I don't think you NEED to attend a program like that, certainly, but if you have the time and money, it's nice.
 

indianroads

Wherever I go, there I am.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 4, 2017
Messages
2,372
Reaction score
230
Location
Colorado
Website
indianroads.net
Reading a lot from a variety of genres creates an instinctive feel for what's working and what's not. You may not know the rule you're breaking, but you'll sense that something's wrong and will play with your writing until it feels right.

I feel that the greatest value of writing courses is the feedback you get from your instructor or other students, and you may be able to get this same sort of instruction via beta readers or a good editor.

Lastly, the act of writing is probably the best teacher of all, with the caveat that you have followed my previous suggestions. You'll not improve until you look outside yourself for instruction / inspiration - but you can't linger there; you can study music all your life but you'll never play well until you sit down at the keyboard and start belting out tunes.
 

lizmonster

Possibly A Mermaid Queen
Absolute Sage
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 5, 2012
Messages
14,756
Reaction score
24,806
Location
Massachusetts
Website
elizabethbonesteel.com
My "formal" creative writing training was two courses in college, and I'm going to come down on the side of "it depends." And the thing it depends on is whether or not you want to invest your time this way.

The best thing I got from the college courses, hands down, was peer critique, both giving and receiving. The second best thing was actual deadlines, although the second course I took allowed unfinished work and was useless in that respect.

Some of this helps with craft. As much as reading and writing as much as you can? ...Well, peer critique can be a good way to gauge how well your development is going. Up to a point, though, I believe practice is much more important than getting feedback.

Learning to meet deadlines is a different thing, and one that's sometimes neglected by those of us who mostly self-train. Here's where I think a formal course can make a huge difference, because getting the discipline to finish a piece and let it fly out into the world is a very different skill than the writing itself. A formal course is a good, safe place to learn and practice this skill.

Having said all this, I've heard lorna_w's warning here and there: formal courses can be destructive. This is where you'd want to do your homework, and preferably talk to people who'd taken the course before. You want a teacher and an atmosphere that encourages your creativity, and not one that's set up to demoralize you or tell you what you want to write is unimportant.

But given a class that's more or less positive, I really do think it depends on what you want to get from it. It's not going to magically turn you into a polished writer, and it's not going to offer you anything you can't find anywhere else. It may offer you a solid learning experience, and some peers you can lean on as all of you move forward. It may also be a lot of fun, which is a good enough reason in and of itself. :)
 

RookieWriter

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 7, 2012
Messages
1,745
Reaction score
40
Location
Mojave Desert
I took one and it was great. It really helped with my confidence. I think they are useful for new writers because A) it teaches you about meeting deadlines and B) it forces you to share your writing with others. These are two areas where some new writers struggle.

They can be useful for more experienced writers but I would think taking an advanced class would be a better choice. You will get feedback from other writer's who will likely notice things about your writing that you haven't.

It was also beneficial for me to take a screenwriting class so I could learn the format and understand how writing for film is different than writing for print.
 

litdawg

Helping those who help themselves
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 18, 2019
Messages
873
Reaction score
562
Location
California
Why not Google online videos of some classes? That will be a very low bar for judging whether formal instruction would be valuable for you. Sci fi/fantasy may not be your genre, but Brandon Sanderson's college class on writing in that genre is free via Youtube. Watch a few class periods and decide for yourself if you need more instruction like that.
 

g_eke

Kind Benefactor
Registered
Joined
Feb 6, 2019
Messages
46
Reaction score
3
Location
UK
But considering what you said at the end...that's all most CW courses are in the USA! It's critique and socializing. So you'd be much better off checking out a library book on the craft of writing every few weeks and doing exercises, or hunting for exercises online. And you'd save untold money.

I'm sure there will be some variation from course to course, but yes if they mostly boil down to critique and meeting other aspiring writers in the flesh, I'm not convinced I couldn't reap the benefits I need online.

...it was reading fiction and writing a newspaper article that went toward how to write something that readers want to read. That said, only you can shape the quality of your story.

To be honest, I'd be departing from my usual approach to learning by not attending a foundational course. I've always deferred to the experts to provide the basics from which I can decide my own path. The fact I've nearly finished draft #1 with no input from anyone else feels weird, and this break with tradition is perhaps what prompted me to ask whether it's possible/advisable to go it "alone" (by which I mean just using online resources and crits).

The thing that I found most useful was that it made me get into a routine with a deadline, and it made me experiment with structures I wouldn't have normally tried. So it expanded my horizons, but the best part was that it made me focus.

My writing currently doesn't even have a style that I'm conscious of (except that I've shoehorned my story into a Save the Cat beat structure). I'd love to experiment with different styles and see if there's some actual voice in there, buried beneath the dry crust of academic writing that I seem to default to. Deadlines are a PITA, but I'm fairly motivated in that department.

Reading a lot from a variety of genres creates an instinctive feel for what's working and what's not. You may not know the rule you're breaking, but you'll sense that something's wrong and will play with your writing until it feels right.

I feel that the greatest value of writing courses is the feedback you get from your instructor or other students, and you may be able to get this same sort of instruction via beta readers or a good editor.

Lastly, the act of writing is probably the best teacher of all, with the caveat that you have followed my previous suggestions. You'll not improve until you look outside yourself for instruction / inspiration - but you can't linger there; you can study music all your life but you'll never play well until you sit down at the keyboard and start belting out tunes.

Read lots (and widely), write lots, seek feedback from beta readers. This was pretty much my plan if I chose not to attend a class. I was also intending to offer regular critique of others' work, although I admit I currently feel like a charlatan doing that. The confidence will grow over time, hopefully.


<sage words>)

Thanks, lizmonster. My academic training was 100% essay based, with some large-ish word counts and fairly tight deadlines. I'm hoping that that experience should see me through, though a decade has somehow passed since I finished my course. I'm sure I would enjoy the experience of a class on a social level, having attended a few evening classes and formed a few friendships. But fun though that would be, that's really not my aim at this time. If I can get feedback of the same quality as face-to-face via t'internet then I may as well go with that.

But all that said, it might be worth my reaching out to some course leaders with specific questions about their course structure, and just take it from there.

Why not Google online videos of some classes? That will be a very low bar for judging whether formal instruction would be valuable for you. Sci fi/fantasy may not be your genre, but Brandon Sanderson's college class on writing in that genre is free via Youtube. Watch a few class periods and decide for yourself if you need more instruction like that.

I've actually watched a few of Brandon Sanderson's vids online, and found them really interesting (though I didn't much like his gummy-bear-for-correct-response mode of tuition). If anything, the presence of these online resources reinforces the idea that I don't need to fork out for a formal class, or sacrifice time travelling to and fro.

Thanks again, all!
 

mccardey

Self-Ban
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 10, 2010
Messages
19,342
Reaction score
16,125
Location
Australia.
I have no interest in reading my work aloud to a group, or in the social aspects of joining an evening class (I have precious little time to socialise as it is).

Thanks, writers!
I totally get this.

If I was in the UK, I'd look at Jericho Writers . Write the book, polish it as much as you possibly can and then send it off for an editorial read. You can learn so much that way.
 

g_eke

Kind Benefactor
Registered
Joined
Feb 6, 2019
Messages
46
Reaction score
3
Location
UK
I totally get this.

If I was in the UK, I'd look at Jericho Writers . Write the book, polish it as much as you possibly can and then send it off for an editorial read. You can learn so much that way.

Thanks, mccardey! I'd not come across Jericho Writers before. It might be some time before I have anything ready to send off, but it's good to know bodies like this exist. Off to browse their services now. :)
 

millymollymo

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 12, 2013
Messages
124
Reaction score
5
Location
Somewhere in Yorkshire
Website
www.millymollymo.com
Jericho is good, its a lead in for the York Festival which for some is very pricey. I don't know where you are in the UK @g_eke

You mention Brandon Sanderson... So I'm guessing you're writing Fantasy?
Try these:

https://www.derbyquad.co.uk/whats-on/events/edge-lit-8 <- Genre Convention happening in July in Derby. Packed with workshops, panels and its affordable too. One of the best, friendliest and most welcoming regardless of where you feel your skills are at. Fun too.

Also at Quad you'll find plenty of workshops throughout the year.
https://writingexcuses.com/ <- Outstanding Podcast - I suspect you'll recognise some names.

http://www.britishfantasysociety.co.uk/ - is what it says on the tin. Great starting point for finding out whats what in UK, links in to local social events, writing events, workshops, submission calls. They're on Facebook too.

https://bsfa.co.uk/ < as above but SF - often cross over with BFS.

Worldcon is near this year... https://dublin2019.com/

Also check out Birmingham SF Group, Milford Writers, London's Tea Party (not that Tea Party), HumberSFF, Sheffield SF Social Bristol Con, NovaCon, Cymera Festival (for next year) depending on where in the uk you are ;)

BUT as you mention you're not a socialiser: As a member of BSFA you get access to ORBIT their critique group and has seen many publications via its support. (Speaking from experience :D)
 
Last edited:

Keithy

Just keep swimming
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 23, 2017
Messages
1,547
Reaction score
76
Location
Ireland
I'm learning by doing. Often I find myself panicking or worrying about going off in the wrong direction, but I've learned a lot from mistakes.
 

g_eke

Kind Benefactor
Registered
Joined
Feb 6, 2019
Messages
46
Reaction score
3
Location
UK
Thanks for the links, millymollymo! :) I'm still finding my genre. I tend to read mostly SF and I guess "non-genre" stuff. My current WIP falls into the SF category (but hey, if it's a good story, I'm not averse to any genre). It's not that I'm not a socialiser, it's just that I have to battle for time alone I can dedicate to bum-in-chair these days. And still my friends complain they don't see enough of me. If I can get away with doing some online courses at home combined with critiquing/beta'ing others' work, and reap similar benefits to attending courses or workshops elsewhere, I'd prefer to do that for now.

@Keithy, it's a bit unusual for me. I have learned solely by doing (and referencing textbooks) before. But that was a programming language, which is less subjective.
 
Last edited:

millymollymo

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 12, 2013
Messages
124
Reaction score
5
Location
Somewhere in Yorkshire
Website
www.millymollymo.com
No probs. I know what you mean about programming, and for that matter finding time. Bum in chair is very important. Sometimes a different perspective helps for me, which is why I hit some of the conventions/events.
There's a Spec Fic forum here, and I know a few who've picked up betas through it. Good Luck