Who assists the ME? Police lieutenant?

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Hi all, quick staffing questions:

Who assists the ME? How do I refer to them? Dr. So and So? Nurse So and So?
Who does admin stuff for the police lieutenant in charge of a precinct? Officer Whosit? Or would they maybe just go by their first name?
Are there other staff you can think of, who would have access to confidential info about an investigation, but who are not obvious choices like uniformed officers, detectives, and crime scene investigators?

Thank you!

ETA: are there teams of CSI? How are they referred to: Officer so and so's team? A team and B team? Red squadron and blue squadron?

I'm sorry, I never watch those shows and now I wish I had.
 
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Stytch

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I'm my little corner of small town USA, the ME is a local doc who works at the hospital. I kind of get the impression they are solitary. Likewise, there is just one or two admin/front desk people at the PO. When you read reports, it's clear the officers do their own, with all their unique and terrible handwriting. Once stuff gets into the computer system, I suppose anyone with clearance would access the stuff. Certainly a reporter who shows up can get handed a photocopy of the basic report pretty easily, minus some parts. I guess it depends on how much of their notes or actions the investigator actually puts into their report. That I couldn't know. Sometimes in court cases investigators' notes can be entered into the record, or even submitted as evidence, but I think they are just in the possession of the officer/investigator until that time. I did do a summer as a sort of junior intern at a police station back in high school, working with the department's admin lady, and I never saw her handle their notes or anything, just the reports that they wrote up, which were always very bland. In a small town, word travels. Cops know stuff and they tell their buddies, or their wives, and it goes from their. Or even just people who live next door and have a front seat to whatever the cops are doing at a crime scene, etc. And all the emergency rescue folks who show up when you call 911, they talk about what they saw. Like, when someone gets shot, even if they're dead, EMTs or whoever still have to show up to cart off the body, so, they see stuff at "the crime scene" that maybe the police wouldn't want to talk about. Hope some of that helps. Again, everything I know is through the filter of small, rural town in the USA, so, take it with a grain of salt if that's not your setting.
 

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I'm my little corner of small town USA, the ME is a local doc who works at the hospital. I kind of get the impression they are solitary. Likewise, there is just one or two admin/front desk people at the PO. When you read reports, it's clear the officers do their own, with all their unique and terrible handwriting. Once stuff gets into the computer system, I suppose anyone with clearance would access the stuff. Certainly a reporter who shows up can get handed a photocopy of the basic report pretty easily, minus some parts. I guess it depends on how much of their notes or actions the investigator actually puts into their report. That I couldn't know. Sometimes in court cases investigators' notes can be entered into the record, or even submitted as evidence, but I think they are just in the possession of the officer/investigator until that time. I did do a summer as a sort of junior intern at a police station back in high school, working with the department's admin lady, and I never saw her handle their notes or anything, just the reports that they wrote up, which were always very bland. In a small town, word travels. Cops know stuff and they tell their buddies, or their wives, and it goes from their. Or even just people who live next door and have a front seat to whatever the cops are doing at a crime scene, etc. And all the emergency rescue folks who show up when you call 911, they talk about what they saw. Like, when someone gets shot, even if they're dead, EMTs or whoever still have to show up to cart off the body, so, they see stuff at "the crime scene" that maybe the police wouldn't want to talk about. Hope some of that helps. Again, everything I know is through the filter of small, rural town in the USA, so, take it with a grain of salt if that's not your setting.

Thank you!

My setting is NYC, so, maybe a bit different. But I do really appreciate the response!
 

lonestarlibrarian

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I don't watch CSI, either, but-- I looked up who my local Medical Examiner was, to see if they were connected to the County government or to the municipal Police or to the regional Hospital.
In my part of Texas (poor, rural, remote), it looks like we don't have ME's. We only have Coroners. And it seems that the Justice of the Peace does double-duty as a Coroner. (Which is interesting, because in TX, a JP doesn't need to be a lawyer--- so now we have a non-lawyer/non-physician serving as a JP/Coroner.)
So then I had to look up the difference between a ME and a Coroner.

Coroners are usually elected and are not required to be physicians. If an autopsy is needed, a coroner will frequently consult with a pathologist or forensic pathologist. Medical examiners, in most cases, are appointed and must be physicians.

Anyhow, just throwing it out there as something to show how it's done in one place, to give the data point and allow you to contrast it against how others do it elsewhere.
 

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Yeah, I think the coroner just signs off on the cause of death. If the doc writes "heart failure," they don't ask questions, they just sign. It's paperwork.
 

cornflake

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Hi all, quick staffing questions:

Who assists the ME? How do I refer to them? Dr. So and So? Nurse So and So?
Who does admin stuff for the police lieutenant in charge of a precinct? Officer Whosit? Or would they maybe just go by their first name?
Are there other staff you can think of, who would have access to confidential info about an investigation, but who are not obvious choices like uniformed officers, detectives, and crime scene investigators?

Thank you!

ETA: are there teams of CSI? How are they referred to: Officer so and so's team? A team and B team? Red squadron and blue squadron?

I'm sorry, I never watch those shows and now I wish I had.

I was going to say this depends on where and then saw you said NYC so....

Where? What do you mean assists the ME? What ME? Assists in what?

What precinct? There's a Lt. in charge? That seems weird, but I guess possible depending on where, maybe. Administrative stuff depends on WHAT administrative stuff -- sometimes officers (and depends on their rank/title), sometimes the admins, etc.

As to your last question, I have concerns you don't understand the scope of what you're asking at all. Do you mean crime scene investigators within the OCME? Within the CSU? Affiliated with the JTF? With Fed Evidence Response?

If the NYPD belonged to a sovereign nation, it'd be the seventh-largest army in the world. We have A LOT of cops (and attendant investigators and investigating divisions).

Also, please don't watch those shows; they're not anywhere close to an accurate representation of anything.
 

TheListener

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Hi all, quick staffing questions:

Who assists the ME? How do I refer to them? Dr. So and So? Nurse So and So?
Who does admin stuff for the police lieutenant in charge of a precinct? Officer Whosit? Or would they maybe just go by their first name?
Are there other staff you can think of, who would have access to confidential info about an investigation, but who are not obvious choices like uniformed officers, detectives, and crime scene investigators?

Thank you!

ETA: are there teams of CSI? How are they referred to: Officer so and so's team? A team and B team? Red squadron and blue squadron?

I'm sorry, I never watch those shows and now I wish I had.

Well. You an start here: https://www1.nyc.gov/site/ocme/about/about-ocme.page

Then you can try the dictionary: an official whose duty is to investigate deaths occurring under unusual or suspicious circumstances, perform post-mortems, and initiate inquests.

Try here:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CSI:_Crime_Scene_Investigation

Other staff that may have access to confidential stuff that either gets typed up or lays on someone's desk in the open: Personal secretary (a civilian) and the janitor.

Good luck.
 

Al X.

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Also, please don't watch those shows; they're not anywhere close to an accurate representation of anything.

Heh. The NCIS shows in particular are laughably inaccurate, although entertaining. To my recollection growing up on Navy bases, I don't -think- NCIS had their own ME, they either wore uniforms or suits, rarely ventured off base, didn't carry guns, and sure as hell didn't engage in tactical ops. They actually had pretty boring jobs. I don't even think they had a crime lab.
 

cornflake

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I watched one half of one of the CSI things -- someone pulled a severed foot out of a swamp, looked at the severed ankle/femur and declared it belonged to a girl of 15. Realistic!
 

jclarkdawe

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NYC medical examiner -- https://www1.nyc.gov/site/ocme/about/about-ocme.page

Autopsy surgeons tend to work alone, or maybe with one assistant, often a medical technician. See https://study.com/articles/Forensic_Autopsy_Technician_Salary_and_Career_Information.html

All autopsies require medical samples of various organs to be sent out for testing, including testing for drugs. As you can see from the locations for NYC, the medical examiner is frequently on a hospital campus. The testing is done frequently by the hospital, in the hospital's normal operation. Medical examiners can share computer software with the associated hospital. These data bases can be hacked.

Jim Clark-Dawe
 

cornflake

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NYC medical examiner -- https://www1.nyc.gov/site/ocme/about/about-ocme.page

Autopsy surgeons tend to work alone, or maybe with one assistant, often a medical technician. See https://study.com/articles/Forensic_Autopsy_Technician_Salary_and_Career_Information.html

All autopsies require medical samples of various organs to be sent out for testing, including testing for drugs. As you can see from the locations for NYC, the medical examiner is frequently on a hospital campus. The testing is done frequently by the hospital, in the hospital's normal operation. Medical examiners can share computer software with the associated hospital. These data bases can be hacked.

Jim Clark-Dawe

Testing isn't generally done by the hospital -- OCME has its pwn labs, of all sorts, including bio, histology, tox... there might be some path sent to a hospital lab but afaik (I'm not positive on any sort of potential breakdown or anything and probably depends on a lot of things), they use their own facilities and personnel. There's a difference between forensic and other in almost everything so... better to know in equivocal situations. There are also dedicated ballistics labs dotted about.
 

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Thank you for the clarifying questions. I am a bit intimidated but I'll try to answer!


The exact location is vague right now, so actually, if someone has a suggestion because it would work best in my scenario, I'd be really open to it. Has to be NYC, though.

What do you mean assists the ME? What ME? Assists in what?

So, this is a big city, and I imagine there is a need for more than just one person, as some folks in rural places described above. I'm kind of guessing based on what I've read, but it seems like in some larger areas, you have a medical examiner who works with a precinct (or several?), and then some subsidiary medical examiners, and medical technicians specializing in maybe things like lab tests and the like. Right now I have the ME as an important character, but also an assistant of some kind, who gets suspected of being a leak (he's not) to the press. But I gather from what you're saying that it's not a simple situation of ME + assistant. Who would be the second in command to the ME?

What precinct? There's a Lt. in charge? That seems weird, but I guess possible depending on where, maybe.

The precinct is unspecified at the moment. The lieutenant being in charge was something a person who has experience writing crime novels set in NYC advised me to do (he's now unavailable).

Administrative stuff depends on WHAT administrative stuff -- sometimes officers (and depends on their rank/title), sometimes the admins, etc.

Answers phones, manages appointments, deals with other nuts and bolts of everyday work the Lt. does.

As to your last question, I have concerns you don't understand the scope of what you're asking at all. Do you mean crime scene investigators within the OCME? Within the CSU? Affiliated with the JTF? With Fed Evidence Response?

::faints::

I'm really out of my depth.

How to put this. I can't change the setting. I have to have the story in NYC. I also have a deadline and am realizing I have a ton to learn and not enough time to learn it. Please forgive me: can you tell me which one would make the most sense and I'll go with it? :/
 
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-Riv-

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Another role to have a look at is morgue tech/forensic mortuary technician. That may be what is being referred to as a medical assistant in this thread. They typically assist the pathologist during autopsies, lug the bodies from the cooler to the table, etc., and keep the morgue clean. (I applied for a morgue tech job way back when LOL.)
 

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I'm probably not adding much but here are some things from my experience.

CSI is horribly fake. Crime scene analysts are not detectives. That show bugs the hell out of me.

Dr G Medical Examiner is a reality TV show following a real ME with real cases. She has an assistant on most cases. The only time that is an MD is when one is in the morgue doing a clinical rotation.

Occasionally more than one doctor is in the morgue doing other cases. And when necessary she sends an investigator out to report on the scene.

Police will observe the autopsy when a crime is suspected. A lot of people forget there are deaths that need examining that aren't always crimes.

Crime scene analysts collect evidence at the scene and sometimes that's extensive. And they process that evidence back in the crime lab. A lot of people in the crime lab never go out to the scene.

All of them go to court to testify when it is called for.
 
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rosehips

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Another role to have a look at is morgue tech/forensic mortuary technician. That may be what is being referred to as a medical assistant in this thread. They typically assist the pathologist during autopsies, lug the bodies from the cooler to the table, etc., and keep the morgue clean. (I applied for a morgue tech job way back when LOL.)

Yes, this sounds like it would work! Thank you.
 

cornflake

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Thank you for the clarifying questions. I am a bit intimidated but I'll try to answer!



The exact location is vague right now, so actually, if someone has a suggestion because it would work best in my scenario, I'd be really open to it. Has to be NYC, though.



So, this is a big city, and I imagine there is a need for more than just one person, as some folks in rural places described above. I'm kind of guessing based on what I've read, but it seems like in some larger areas, you have a medical examiner who works with a precinct (or several?), and then some subsidiary medical examiners, and medical technicians specializing in maybe things like lab tests and the like. Right now I have the ME as an important character, but also an assistant of some kind, who gets suspected of being a leak (he's not) to the press. But I gather from what you're saying that it's not a simple situation of ME + assistant. Who would be the second in command to the ME?



The precinct is unspecified at the moment. The lieutenant being in charge was something a person who has experience writing crime novels set in NYC advised me to do (he's now unavailable).



Answers phones, manages appointments, deals with other nuts and bolts of everyday work the Lt. does.



::faints::

I'm really out of my depth.

How to put this. I can't change the setting. I have to have the story in NYC. I also have a deadline and am realizing I have a ton to learn and not enough time to learn it. Please forgive me: can you tell me which one would make the most sense and I'll go with it? :/

Ok, I now have... further concerns, heh. You didn't ask this at all, so forgive me please, but have you had your book vetted for general NY stuff? I've seen a lot of things come through SYW that had glaring, glaring errors in ... NYness, for lack of a better word. I'm not talking about minor picky things I notice because I live here; I'm talking about stuff that makes absolutely no sense given the city and that agents and publishers (who are mostly in NY) not to mention readers if the errors got that far, would notice.

As to the MEs... NY has somewhere between 30 and 40 MEs.

Lots of precincts, admin stuff is handled by admin assts.
 

cornflake

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Also, what makes the most sense depends entirely on what you're talking about -- are you talking about a terrorist attack or Bob, dead in Queens, or something in between? These are all entirely different scenarios that have entirely different vectors of answers.
 

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Also, what makes the most sense depends entirely on what you're talking about -- are you talking about a terrorist attack or Bob, dead in Queens, or something in between? These are all entirely different scenarios that have entirely different vectors of answers.

Like, everyday homicide kind of stuff. I sent you a little message through the reputation button. :)
 

ironmikezero

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Please get the NYPD details right--it will matter, even if you only touch on them in passing. And most of all, keep it simple and avoid any bureaucratic rabbit holes.

Detectives assinged to a precinct answer to a sergeant and lieutenant, carry heavy caseloads, and rarely have the time to attend an autopsy (although it can happen if warranted). Postmortem reports, especially lab reports, typically take much longer to prepare and get to the detective(s); a host of people may have seen the documents.


Start here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_Police_Department
 

jclarkdawe

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Testing isn't generally done by the hospital -- OCME has its pwn labs, of all sorts, including bio, histology, tox... there might be some path sent to a hospital lab but afaik (I'm not positive on any sort of potential breakdown or anything and probably depends on a lot of things), they use their own facilities and personnel. There's a difference between forensic and other in almost everything so... better to know in equivocal situations. There are also dedicated ballistics labs dotted about.

I'm not sure about NYC, but normally the economics of some of the testing is best done by a hospital. Remember that beyond the specialized tests (some of which there might be only one lab in the entire US that can do it), you need the normal blood and urine tests and tissue samples from all organs, whether involved in the cause of death or not. Further, the medical examiner is doing autopsies on natural deaths, where the cause of death is a medical condition.

Remember that NYC has a population larger than something like 38 - 40 of the states. And budgets in many areas to match its size.

NYC police have media specialists who are happy to help people get it right. (Fire department as well.) NYC police is justly proud of many of its resources, and in some areas can beat the Feds.

Jim Clark-Dawe
 

cornflake

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I'm not sure about NYC, but normally the economics of some of the testing is best done by a hospital. Remember that beyond the specialized tests (some of which there might be only one lab in the entire US that can do it), you need the normal blood and urine tests and tissue samples from all organs, whether involved in the cause of death or not. Further, the medical examiner is doing autopsies on natural deaths, where the cause of death is a medical condition.

Remember that NYC has a population larger than something like 38 - 40 of the states. And budgets in many areas to match its size.

NYC police have media specialists who are happy to help people get it right. (Fire department as well.) NYC police is justly proud of many of its resources, and in some areas can beat the Feds.

Jim Clark-Dawe

Yeah, I'm only talking about NYC, as that's what I'm familiar with. Beyond the CoE concerns, it's just (in NY) a mess to have stuff spread like that, hence the labs.

As I said, not positive there's nothing ever tested in a hospital, but there is a dedicated, large tox lab, a hist lab, etc., operating under the OCME auspices; they're used.
 

MaeZe

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Yeah, I'm only talking about NYC, as that's what I'm familiar with. Beyond the CoE concerns, it's just (in NY) a mess to have stuff spread like that, hence the labs.

As I said, not positive there's nothing ever tested in a hospital, but there is a dedicated, large tox lab, a hist lab, etc., operating under the OCME auspices; they're used.
Seattle has a crime lab that's part of the state patrol. It's in its own building. A lot of evidence is processed and stored there.

The ME in Seattle is in part of the Harborview Hospital complex. Public Health also has infectious disease offices in the complex. Public health uses the hospital lab but also has its own lab in the north end of Seattle. The ME uses a combination of the hospital lab and the public health lab but both also use the lab at the University of WA and the lab at Children's Orthopedic Hospital for a lot of their serologies and pathology exams.

Everyone is just one big happy family. :D
 

Bing Z

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NYPD hierarchy and organization are complicated. For homicide, they have seven 'Homicide Squads' (2x for The Bronx & Manhattan, one each for the other boroughs) with homicide detectives investigating these crimes. And then precinct detectives are also involved.

As already stated, the Chief Medical Examiner heads the (very large) morgue. For a brief (and aged) info check out this NYT article. As astonishing as it can be, the TV series CSI-NY has one thing right--their crime scene investigators are detectives (or at least some of them) rather than civilians. Hopefully someone (looks at cornflake) has insider information, because the NYPD Press Relations will not talk/explain things to authors (I tried).
 
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rosehips

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Okay, another question:
Let's say a detective calls for back up before entering a house where they think a suspect is hiding. Would the patrol cars answering the call typically pull up with sirens off or on? Light off or on? Because what would make sense to me is for them to pull up with everything off so as not to alert the suspect and cause him to bolt.