The case for impeachment

MaeZe · Sep 22, 2019

I have heard Pelosi on multiple occasions in her own words saying impeachment is NOT off the table. The media wants conflict, they want scandal.

This headline from your link is dishonest:

Apparently Nothing Trump Does Will Convince Nancy Pelosi to Impeach Him

They cite NPR without a link so we don't know how old this is or whether it is Pelosi's words or something she no longer stands by:

Nevertheless, according to NPR, Pelosi still believes that impeachment hearings would “alienate” swing voters and harm Democrats in 2020. I don’t know how many ways there are to articulate a counterargument to this point, but we’ve pretty much covered them all here at Splinter.

She may very well still believe it will alienate voters but still not be against it.

I was disappointed hearing Pelosi say we need to collect the evidence when Mueller's report spelled out obstruction of justice on four different occasions.

However, I'm bothered when the media repeats she's against impeachment when I have heard her myself say that is not true.

I'm happy to have patience. I would like to see the Democrats get a little more feisty in the House hearings. They did a piss-poor job in my opinion interviewing Lewandowski.

Trump, on the other hand, feeling more invincible apparently is making stupider mistakes by the day.

As for repercussions, focus on McConnell, not on Pelosi.

Roxxsmom · Sep 22, 2019

The lack of accountability at the highest levels of government is disquieting, to put it mildly. He does seem to think he's invincible and is acting exactly like a mad king back in the days when kings had no checks on their power.

But history is filled with kings who lost their heads, or were locked up in towers, or who suffered revolts by their nobles, or who were forced to submit to medical treatments for being mad.

Mad King *rump, head of state in what is supposed to be a Constitutional representative democracy with checks and balances? No consequences at all thus far.

I would weep for my people, but I'm not sure I have a people...

MaeZe · Sep 22, 2019

Vox: Trump admits he discussed Biden with Ukraine, but says he was just worried about corruption

Republicans are now calling for an investigation into Biden as Democrats call for impeachment.

And now Trump turns his attention to Warren.
Vox: Trump just asked the Supreme Court to let him fire the CFPB’s head. The implications are enormous.

On Tuesday, the Trump administration asked the Supreme Court to hear a lawsuit challenging the leadership structure of the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau (CFPB) — taking the same side as the people suing the government in a major constitutional dispute.

The administration essentially threw in the towel in the challenge to the consumer protection agency started by senator and presidential candidate Elizabeth Warren. As a general rule, the Justice Department has a duty to defend federal laws challenged in court. The administration, however, decided not to defend the law at issue in this case.

With the Justice Department urging the Court to weigh in, it is now very likely that the justices will do so. The policy implications of this suit, Seila Law v. CFPB, are unclear. In the narrowest sense, Seila Law is a case about whether a federal agency can be led by a single director that the president cannot remove at will. More broadly, however, the case is the most recent skirmish in a war over what kind of government our Constitution permits.

Most likely, the Supreme Court will hold that the president may remove the CFPB director. In the short term, that could give a big boost to a future Democratic president — potentially allowing a President Warren to replace Trump’s CFPB director with her own on the first day of her presidency.

But the Court could also go much further. There is a chance — albeit a very small one — that the Supreme Court could strike down the CFPB in its entirety. There’s a somewhat greater chance that the Supreme Court could disallow “independent” agencies in which the leaders of those agencies are protected against removal by the president.

President Trump, in other words, could gain the power to fire members of the Federal Reserve board who refuse to inject steroids into the economy while Trump is running for reelection.

This will give Warren ammo, fighting the corrupt establishment.

cbenoi1 · Sep 23, 2019

MaeZe said:
I have heard Pelosi on multiple occasions in her own words saying impeachment is NOT off the table.

She has the choice between removing Trump from power now or obliterating the GOP from the US political map forever a year from now. My take: she's hoping one day enough people will eventually wake up to reality and that moment will happen two months before the 2020 elections. So she's in no big hurry to kick the bum out. And no need to tangle up Nadler either; he can fall on his face all by himself.

-cb

Maggie Maxwell · Sep 23, 2019

When there's a giant monster stomping around Tokyo destroying everything in its path, you don't wait a year because you can build better weapons for taking out all the kaiju then. You take out the immediate problem and then continue to build the better weapons because the threat is still there.

MaeZe · Sep 23, 2019

I like that analogy Maggie.

But the way to impeach him might be getting more active and loud in House hearings. Public pressure on the Senate is going to be needed. Supporting Trump needs to be a bigger political liability.

Introversion · Sep 23, 2019

The frustrating thing to me, watching the Democrats dither, is that Democratic leadership is basing their reluctance to impeach based on perceived lack of public support for it.

But public support for anything isn't immutable, nor does it arise from a vacuum. Most voters pay relatively little attention to the details of *rump's impeachable offenses, and/or they hear what conservative media says about it. If Democrats want the public to understand the gravity of *rump's offenses, then they need to fecking lead here. Make the case. Don't waffle (as Pelosi always does), don't fear that it's a step too far (as Pelosi seems to). All that does is play along with conservative media's and *rump's assertions that there's nothing serious there.

Make the case for impeachment. Democrats should be doing this 24x7. And if it goes to the Senate and dies there? Then that becomes the campaign ad against every Republican up for re-election: They voted against holding a rogue president accountable, for the many transgressions we (the Democrats) laid out to the public.

And if that still fails? Well, then America gets what it deserves. But you don't shirk battle because you might lose the war. That's just cowardice.

PostHuman · Sep 23, 2019

cbenoi1 said:
She has the choice between removing Trump from power now or obliterating the GOP from the US political map forever a year from now.

She can initiate impeachment inquiry, then, possibly pass articles of impeachment by majority in the House. If she manages to get that far, then the Senate would hold a trial and to convict him would require 2/3 majority vote in the senate. I think it would be unlikely for GOP senators to vote for conviction if he were tried today IMO. And even if he is convicted, the Senate might vote to remove him from office, possibly without barring him from running again in the future. So even if convicted (which seems unlikely), it would be a lengthy process and he could conceivably run again next year anyways and win another 4 years.

And if he gets impeached but is not convicted by the 2/3 majority in Senate, I think he wears that around his neck like a medal of exoneration and it helps him win more votes in the 2020 election.

cbenoi1 · Sep 23, 2019

Maggie Maxwell said:
When there's a giant monster stomping around Tokyo destroying everything in its path, you don't wait a year because you can build better weapons for taking out all the kaiju then. You take out the immediate problem and then continue to build the better weapons because the threat is still there.

The workers at the Osaka weapons facility don't really care about Tokyo. They feel they are far away from it all and they have their own issues to deal with. Some even think Tokyo was so dysfunctional it needed rebuilding anyway. So much for that.

It's gonna take a year one way or another is what I think Pelosi is contemplating.

-cb

lizmonster · Sep 23, 2019

cbenoi1 said:
It's gonna take a year one way or another is what I think Pelosi is contemplating.

The House could impeach; the Senate won't follow through. The 2020 election will be rigged. I'm beginning to feel pretty strongly that it won't matter whether we impeach him or not.

None of this is aimed in a good direction.

CWatts · Sep 24, 2019

So proud of my congresswoman joining the call for impeachment. Abigail Spanberger is a former CIA officer and serves on the Foreign Affairs Committee.

https://spanberger.house.gov/news/documentsingle.aspx?DocumentID=2053

But the newest allegations against the President of the United States have started a new chapter, and they must be treated as such. The allegation that the President may have used his position to ask a foreign leader to investigate a political rival to benefit his reelection efforts is shocking. That he may have tried to use U.S. taxpayer-funded security assistance funding as leverage in this effort represents a national security threat. In addition to the alleged actions of the President, the Administration is also blocking the Intelligence Community Inspector General from providing “urgent” and “credible” whistleblower information to Congress as required by law. The people of Central Virginia and the entire country deserve answers.

That’s why I’ve joined with my fellow veteran and national security colleagues in calling on the House to pursue all possible avenues to determine the validity of these allegations. I want to make clear to the people of Central Virginia that these allegations, if proven true, pose a threat to our national security, endanger the integrity of our elections, and represent impeachable offenses. Congress must urgently determine if these allegations are true.

AW Admin · Sep 24, 2019

People

Stop posting in a hostile fashion. I'm not kidding. I've had enough hostility, and I'm not going to put up with more.

You can disagree without it being a personal attack.

Try dealing with the words, the ideas, and not the writer.

I'm reading deliberate rhetorically constructed hostility that is entirely unnecessary and not helpful. Knock it off.

MaeZe · Sep 24, 2019

Pelosi is going to make an announcement in about 15 minutes on the impeachment issue.

You can hear it live here: CSPAN Radio live in a few minutes.

CSPAN 3
CSPAN Radio
CSPAN.org

2pm Eastern Standard Time.

Warning: currently playing is gag-worthy Kellyanne Conway.

Arrghh, they've announced it won't be for an hour more, Pelosi is meeting with other legislators.

Schumer is on discussing the whistle blower complaint. There was a Tuesday deadline for Congress to get the full report. He's demanding the Senate act. They probably won't.

Introversion · Sep 24, 2019

MaeZe said:
Pelosi is going to make an announcement in about 15 minutes on the impeachment issue.

I'd like to be hopeful, but I'm not sure it's warranted. Suspect it's going to either be a rejoinder against "an unwise rush to impeachment", or a too-cautious statement about the desire to blah blah blah.

Brightdreamer · Sep 24, 2019

My money's on nothing more definitive than "maybe form an exploratory team to consider organizing a committee to shuffle notecards and clear throats and scuff feet on the carpet while possibly thinking about crafting a strongly-worded letter that wouldn't actually included the 'i'-word."

Kjbartolotta · Sep 24, 2019

Introversion said:
I'd like to be hopeful, but I'm not sure it's warranted. Suspect it's going to either be a rejoinder against "an unwise rush to impeachment", or a too-cautious statement about the desire to blah blah blah.

But let's wait and see what she says.

I'm not defended her foot-dragging, btw, but a lot of the rhetoric pointed at her leaves me cold.

MaeZe · Sep 24, 2019

Postponed until 5pm Eastern (two hours).

I'll keep the thread updated.

I'm going with: she's been pressured to act. At a minimum there will be some ultimatum which Trump won't cave to, like releasing the whistle blower report.

My hope is that she's done giving Trump rope to hang himself.

Now there is something else on with Pelosi from the past. This is not the announcement but it appears related.

ElaineA · Sep 24, 2019

~~Twenty-six~~ 30 MOC have come out in favor of impeachment since *last night. The news of the op-ed by 7 "swing-district" freshman MOC was a dam-breaker.

And by the by, there ARE impeachment-related hearings ongoing in the house. I get the frustration, but it's not like the Democratic caucus in the house is just sitting under a rock.

Lyv · Sep 24, 2019

My rep is Stephen Lynch, who is wishy-washy and does little. Certainly never anything requiring courage or...I dunno, a pulse? (Not a fan). Called his office and asked an aide when he's going to fulfill his constitutional duty and call for impeachment. I've been calling at least weekly. He is heading back to DC and will be briefed, no commitment either way.

Kjbartolotta · Sep 24, 2019

MaeZe said:
I'm going with: she's been pressured to act. At a minimum there will be some ultimatum which Trump won't cave to, like releasing the whistle blower report.

My hope is that she's done giving Trump rope to hang himself.

It's my hope too, FWIW. It sounds like we're going full impeachment today but I might damn well be wrong. I'm both perpetually frustrated with her and understand that I don't have to make the choices Pelosi does. I'm unhappy with the choices she's made and you wanna talk new leadership, well, maybe I'm here for that.

But it sounds like we're moving forward. That's good. And it took a hell of a lot of work to get there and ain't gonna be a cake walk from here.

MaeZe · Sep 24, 2019

The Pelosi interview this morning with the Atlantic, just played on CSPAN radio, was pretty damn good.

When asked about the phone transcript Trump has agreed to release (in a Tweet), Pelosi noted one, you don't need a 'pro quo' to make it an impeachable offense to ask a foreign country to interfere in our elections, and two, Trump held up foreign aid to Ukraine several days before the call. That was not legal in and of itself.

She's meeting with her caucus at four and will have an announcement at five.

Trump's making excuses for withholding the aid to Ukraine, blaming the EU.

Roxxsmom · Sep 24, 2019

Assuming something can actually be produced that is damning, I think it's time to move forward with this, if there ever is.

The Republican base will never believe he's done anything wrong, not even if he shot someone on national television. I doubt there's anything that can be done to get more than a handful of GOP senators, if that, to vote impeachment. But it's a matter of standing by one's principles and convincing both confirmed Democrats and people of a more moderate bent that one party still has their backs and stands for the rule of law (and that party ain't the GOP).

The GOP needs to be convincingly cast as the party of obstruction and corruption so the Democratic base turns out in force (at least) and so independents swing for them in 2020.

cbenoi1 · Sep 24, 2019

She'll say she might consider maybe it's time the Democrats ramp up the threat level to start moving forward the thought process around an impeachment strategy.

-cb

Night_Writer · Sep 24, 2019

What I'm really looking forward to is watching Donald run a re-election campaign while he's going through impeachment proceedings. I don't think that's ever happened before. I can't wait to see the commercials.

Lyv · Sep 24, 2019

Adam Schiff just tweeted:

We have been informed by the whistleblower’s counsel that their client would like to speak to our committee and has requested guidance from the Acting DNI as to how to do so.

We‘re in touch with counsel and look forward to the whistleblower’s testimony as soon as this week.

I hope that person has plenty of protection.

The case for impeachment

MaeZe

Roxxsmom

Beastly Fido

MaeZe

cbenoi1

Maggie Maxwell

Making Einstein cry since 1994

MaeZe

Introversion

Pie aren't squared, pie are round!

PostHuman

cbenoi1

lizmonster

Possibly A Mermaid Queen

CWatts

down the rabbit hole of research...

AW Admin

MaeZe

Introversion

Pie aren't squared, pie are round!

Brightdreamer

Just Another Lazy Perfectionist

Kjbartolotta

Potentially has/is dog

MaeZe

ElaineA

All about that action, boss.

Lyv

I meant to do that.

Kjbartolotta

Potentially has/is dog

MaeZe

Roxxsmom

Beastly Fido

cbenoi1

Night_Writer

It's all symbolic.

Lyv

I meant to do that.