The British Brexit facepalm thread

talktidy

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I am wondering if Boris Johnson's political aspirations are damaged beyond repair.

He's dumped the Queen in major shit, made her do something that was an illegal act - shutting down parliament.

One does not embarrass the Queen and remain unscathed.

If that's the end of him, I shall celebrate. I cannot stand the man, and that is aside from his brand of politics.
 

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I am wondering if Boris Johnson's political aspirations are damaged beyond repair.

He's dumped the Queen in major shit, made her do something that was an illegal act - shutting down parliament.

One does not embarrass the Queen and remain unscathed.

If that's the end of him, I shall celebrate. I cannot stand the man, and that is aside from his brand of politics.

It wasn't an illegal act at the time as there was a historical precedence for prorogation. The supreme court said it was "unlawful", rather than "illegal". Which is why he hasn't been charged with committing a crime.

Boris isn't going anywhere. He has a healthy approval rating and the left are a total shambles in this country. Vote of no confidence, tying his hands further by forcing through laws, whatever way they turn, the remainer MP's in parliament are playing right into Dominic Cumming's hands. The longer this shambles go on, the angrier the public will get which makes them easier to manipulate. Whether you agree with it or not (I voted remain BTW), it's working.
 

talktidy

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It wasn't an illegal act at the time as there was a historical precedence for prorogation. The supreme court said it was "unlawful", rather than "illegal". Which is why he hasn't been charged with committing a crime.

Boris isn't going anywhere. He has a healthy approval rating and the left are a total shambles in this country. Vote of no confidence, tying his hands further by forcing through laws, whatever way they turn, the remainer MP's in parliament are playing right into Dominic Cumming's hands. The longer this shambles go on, the angrier the public will get which makes them easier to manipulate. Whether you agree with it or not (I voted remain BTW), it's working.

Yep, I mis-spoke on the illegal/unlawful thing.

I watched a Channel 4 prog on the other night. The Tories at War and should have turned it off, because it was doing terrible things for my blood pressure. The presenter went in for the whole vox populi thing - approaching the man/woman in the street for a representative view of the perception of the state of Brexit and they chose a constituency for the purpose, which went for leave in a big way.

You had someone expressing their keenness for a no deal Brexit and then in the next breath saying they didn't really understand the ins and outs of it. Not the foggiest of what it is likely to do to the economy and British business. My cue to start swearing at the telly. Unfortunately, this is not just a few isolated examples. I have family members gung-ho for leaving, who scoff at you, when you warn this will not end well.

I still hold out hope there are those who can see through BoJo. Unfortunately, I suspect you are probably right
 

neandermagnon

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Article about people who used to support leave but who now support remain, also, the reasons why they voted leave and why they changed their minds: https://www.standard.co.uk/news/pol...aaqWYTuinsO88dcmyURcEylF3b7rgPzo38vwb3MyI31XA

"I had no awareness of the issue this presented to peace in Northern Ireland. I didn’t know that my vote jeopardised that and when I learnt about it - I was in shock. I had voted for better NHS and more funding into services for the UK. I would never have voted leave if I had understood that it would jeopardise the agreement that I had long taken for granted." (quote from the article)
 
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ElaineA

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I realize that it's hard when misinformation is spewing into a person's ear, but Christ on a Pop Tart, if I, an American, knew about the dangers of messing with the RI/NI border, couldn't a British voter have dug a little deeper to see what they were contemplating voting for? I just don't believe these people making excuses now--here in the US or there in the UK. All the info about the dangers of Brexit (like the danger of Trump) was available then if they cared to look. They didn't want to find it, or they heard it and ignored it. Or, they knew it all and made their choice anyway, which is where I think 90% of them land.
 

talktidy

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I realize that it's hard when misinformation is spewing into a person's ear, but Christ on a Pop Tart, if I, an American, knew about the dangers of messing with the RI/NI border, couldn't a British voter have dug a little deeper to see what they were contemplating voting for? I just don't believe these people making excuses now--here in the US or there in the UK. All the info about the dangers of Brexit (like the danger of Trump) was available then if they cared to look. They didn't want to find it, or they heard it and ignored it. Or, they knew it all and made their choice anyway, which is where I think 90% of them land.

Cue a shit ton of swearing. I am so angry at those people, who responded to warnings of what Brexit would do to the economy, and the Good Friday agreement, by bleating out the refrain of project bloody fear. I have family members employed at a local university campus, where the funding for their brand spanking new campus came from the EU, and yet one of the family member's own parents was gung-ho on leaving. The parents are chivvying them to produce grandchildren, but family member is shit scared a poof of disappearing funding means the end of their job.
 

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Cue a shit ton of swearing. I am so angry at those people, who responded to warnings of what Brexit would do to the economy, and the Good Friday agreement, by bleating out the refrain of project bloody fear.

That "project fear" meme lodged pretty tightly into too many brains. Brexit is something to fear, if the results are going to be awful, as it seems like they will be.

In the U.S., the Brexit-as-article-of-religious-faith equivalent seems to be people who support Tmurp's trade wars, with the rejoinder to "this is bad" typically that it's "about time someone did something". Well, cratering the global economy is "something", I'll give them that much.
 

neandermagnon

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Another article: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...Jo9yfZGcQS8RHrofqeBwNs5bVLtl4qi5rOe_ew19i2woI

More than 2.6 million people have changed their minds, according to polls quoted in the above article.

It's all very well (and understandable) to rant about individuals who voted without doing their research first or just believed lies on a bus or whatever, but the facts are:

1. the remain campaign was weak and failed to get across all the benefits of EU membership or the possible consequences of leaving

2. the leave campaign flat out lied and manipulated people

3. large numbers of people actually don't want to leave the EU anymore


Where to go from there...?

If it was up to me, there'd be a second referendum and a change in the law to hold politicians to a much higher standard of honesty in campaigning. We accept lies and manipulation as part of the political process. Why?

As for Trump, the best explanation for why people vote for Trump is that humans are a species of great ape and Trump is very good at presenting himself as a good alpha great ape contender - chest beating and "Trust me because I'm the best leader. I'm better than all the other leaders". It's probably the only thing he's good at. I've given up wishing that humans would stop behaving like apes because we are apes and can't really be surprised when apes behave like apes.

ETA: not just Trump voters. Large numbers of people of all kinds of political opinons do the same. People who actually carefully consider the facts and make an informed choice are in the minority. How to fix that? I have no idea. I'm still trying to figure out how to fix the fact that a lot of people believe that the Earth is flat even when presented with the reams of evidence that prove the Earth is a planet (planets are spherical by definition).
 
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onesecondglance

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1. the remain campaign was weak and failed to get across all the benefits of EU membership

This in particular. There was virtually nothing from the Remain campaign to educate people on the benefits we get from being in the EU - particularly our very favourable deal compared to pretty much every other nation. All we had was the dire warnings about leaving, which just fed the "Project Fear" line, and a certain kind of "meh, the status quo is okay, isn't it?"

We got beaten by Leave in the referendum because they had a more effective campaign. An illegal, morally bankrupt, frequently despicable campaign, but more effective, nonetheless.
 

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Well, I dunno. It's easy now to say the remain-campaign didn't do enough, but... most people didn't think it necessary. The benefits of EU membership are pretty obvious, even then. I expected people to see through the very obvious lies of the Leave-campaign. I suppose others did as well.

IMO the remain-campaign's error was thinking people would in the end be reasonable and let logic make such an important decision that would impact their lives and nation for generations to come, rather than falling for lies that appealed to baser emotions. The Brits have had that clear-headed reputation for so long with so much of their contributions to science. The stiff upper lip during the world wars, etc... A couple of years ago I couldn't think of a nation I thought more capable of making the right decision in this than the UK. Clearly I was wrong.

Keeping the high moral ground and expecting people to do the right thing is all nice and all, but history is showing us it will cost you elections and referenda.
 

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The benefits of EU membership are pretty obvious, even then.

Just to take an example, Cornwall - which has received "Objective One" funding from the EU in the region of £2bn since 1999 - voted Leave. I guess we could argue that perhaps some of the Leave votes were fully aware of the scale of that funding and voted out of the EU anyway, but - falling back on the logic you mention - I'm more inclined to believe there just wasn't enough awareness of what that funding was being used for and how it benefits those areas to stay in. I do know that some of the Leave voters expected the mythical "£350m" that would pay for everything in the sunlit uplands to make up those subsidies - which is a peculiarly contorted piece of reasoning.

But yeah, in the wake of Brexit, Trump, Johnson, etc., the days of politicians not being able to get away with bare-faced lies are behind us.
 

neandermagnon

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This in particular. There was virtually nothing from the Remain campaign to educate people on the benefits we get from being in the EU - particularly our very favourable deal compared to pretty much every other nation. All we had was the dire warnings about leaving, which just fed the "Project Fear" line, and a certain kind of "meh, the status quo is okay, isn't it?"

We got beaten by Leave in the referendum because they had a more effective campaign. An illegal, morally bankrupt, frequently despicable campaign, but more effective, nonetheless.

This is true. And it's also made me realise how little I knew about the EU. I've outlined the reasons why I voted remain earlier in the thread - that plus all the human rights and workers rights that come from the EU - but honestly I didn't know about half the things that have come up since then. I don't remember learning about the EEC at school even though I did GCSE geography (granted I did my GCSEs before the EEC became the EU) - I just looked up whether it's even on the national curriculum to learn about the EU, and it's not. I found a few tabloid articles from 2013 saying that learning about the EU had been cut from the national curriculum. I don't know when it was introduced into the national curriculum or for how many years it was there. Suffice it to say most of the population don't know much about it.

Anyway, feels like we're all crying over spilled milk now. I feel like my country's driving off the edge of a cliff. I also feel like my entire species is driving off the edge of an even worse cliff with regards to climate change. I also think that humans being so bloody stupid when it comes to making decisions for emotional reasons and the cognitive dissonance that prevents people from listening to facts and reason because it contradicts incorrect ideas that we have an emotional attachment to is what's going to lead to the extinction of our species. Bye bye Homo sapiens sapiens. Wise wise man. LOL. If any alien archaeologists find our planet and the remains of our species and decipher our writings they're going to have a right old laugh at that...
 

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This doesn't seem good?

Millions of apples left to rot as European pickers abandon Britain

The London Economic said:
...

One hundred tonnes of fruit has gone unpicked in Britain already this season. This means that rather than heading for apple pressing or processing plants, shops, or fruit storage facilities, more than 16 million apples so far have been left to rot at the peak of harvest season due to a Brexit-led employment slump.

...

Popular winter vegetables could also be left unpicked, with concern expressed over the availability of Brussels sprouts, carrots, parsnips and broccoli in the run-up to Christmas.

Industry experts believe that the country would need 70,000 workers to plug the gap.

Ali Capper, chairwoman of the NFU’s horticultural board and an apple producer, said that she had never seen crop wastage like it.
 

Friendly Frog

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oneblindmouse

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... By the time Brexit rolls on, all farmers will be broke and gone. Can't they make the politicians go and pick the fruit? At least then they'll actually be doing something useful for their voters.

A lot of these farmers voted Leave, apparently oblivious to the disastrous effects it would have on their own businesses!
 

Friendly Frog

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I've been hearing rumours Johnson is trying to pull a quick one over Parlement and has slipped some language in a bill that will allow him a no-deal-Brexit if he can just delay long enough. I can't find any clear confirmation. (To be honest, sometimes my eyes start to glaze over when I read Brexit-things.) Can anyone shed some light?

A lot of these farmers voted Leave, apparently oblivious to the disastrous effects it would have on their own businesses!
Clearly the ability to make one's own trade treaties, which will be so much better without the clout and funding the EU can bring to the table, will fix this. The red bus said so.

The red bus just didn't take into account the many non-UK people involved in UK harvests.

I am worried what Macron is going to do. He seems prepared to rip off the band aid and dump the UK asap.
I doubt France is more ready to deal with a no-deal-Brexit than the rest of Europe. So I doubt he'll actually follow through. But then I have been wrong about Brexit before in so many ways. Who knows anymore? But I can't fault him for feeling like "Leave already, will you?!"

That said, Brexit is turning out to be a awesome deterrent against other EU exits. This dumpster fire is turning out to be worse than anyone could have imagined in 2016.
 
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talktidy

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I doubt France is more ready to deal with a no-deal-Brexit than the rest of Europe. So I doubt he'll actually follow through. But then I have been wrong about Brexit before in so many ways. Who knows anymore? But I can't fault him for feeling like "Leave already, will you?!"

I pray you are right about Macron not wanting a no deal Brexit.
 

onesecondglance

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Right-oh, no deal is off the table (thank god) and it looks like we're going to have an election before Christmas.

The parties have finally aggregated along relatively clear lines:

Tories: Boris's deal
Labour: 2nd referendum
Lib Dems: Revoke without referendum
Brexit Party: No deal
Greens: same as Labour but with far less chance of winning

Interestingly, as this current motion to call an election is a separate bill, and not a motion under the Fixed Term Parliaments Act, it can be amended (because it is about a proposed law rather than an existing one - I think). Might we see Labour propose an amendment to lower the voting age to 16? It would strongly favour their demographic, which the Tories won't like, but they don't have a (technical) majority any more...
 

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Well, another delay. I'm kind of torn whether this will be better for anyone at all but there it is. Not sure what another election is going to solve, another referendum seems much more useful, but it's the UK's money to waste on that one. Unless, if the parties remain split along the lines which onesecondglance mentioned, maybe another election is as good as another referendum.

Speaking of money , I'm hearing on twitter some rumours that US pharma companies are already taking steps to open talks to 'renogociate' (read: upwards) the pricing for their meds once the Brexit is through. Can't let those 300 millions a week for the NHS go to waste, I reckon.
 

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Speaking of money , I'm hearing on twitter some rumours that US pharma companies are already taking steps to open talks to 'renogociate' (read: upwards) the pricing for their meds once the Brexit is through. Can't let those 300 millions a week for the NHS go to waste, I reckon.

The UK peeps who still want to Leave have no idea what they're in favor of. Expecting to get a more favorable (than EU) trade agreement out of Tmurp is like expecting hornets not to sting you. Hornets sting, and Tmurp screws you because he views everything as transactional in a zero-sum game.