my experience with the editors

Irene Eng

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Happy spring AWers

Dear editors, what should I expect when I sign on?

What I really want to ask is what do editors do, and especially when they say "they do editing, story flow and story development ... " - but that sounds silly, so here are some of my experiences - your feedbacks are greatly appreciated. (After few years, I figured out some of them but not all...)

#1. Editor Online (5 years ago): she charges $389 monthly fee (3 month min) and edits certain amount of words/chapters. I signed on to get over my procrastination. But then, I saw all she did was to correct a few words and some grammar - I doubt my writing is that good (OR maybe it's so bad that is beyond salvage. And if the writer is so bad at it, would the editor soldier on?

#2. One Hour (5 yr ago): a popular forum runs by an agent suggested an editor. My gut feeling was she was new at freelancing. $200 to read 2 pages and one hour on the phone. She was late to the phone and was outside, with plenty background noise. After 30 minutes, we both had nothing to say.

#3. You're not Ready (4 yrs ago): $210 to read my ms and then declined bec I need to make my ms better ... I like her, even she didn't return my fee -> #2 post at this post.

#4. Writing Class: the teacher who edited our writings is really good in terns of yelling and praising. But I didn't think we hit it off so I didn't contact her after the class was over. Maybe for the yelling she's worth her gold.

#5. Lower East: $100 for reading few pages and one hour meeting. She was sensible and liked what I wrote but I didn't hear any critics.

#6. The Developmental Editor: I googled what they do but this editor did, mostly were line editing and correct my grammar (I thought these are for copy editor, no?). I knew I need suggestions and corrections of my story line, development ... oh well ...

#7. Memoir Teacher: he edited a short essay for me but then didn't reply to my next inquiry. Probably due to reason #1 above. Forgot how much I paid.

#8. Free lancer in a group: $165 for a trial run (2k words and 30 min on phone) . Many praises when I knew I deserve more criticism ...

#9. Free lancer in a group II: "sorry I'm too busy", end of story. I like this editor too :cry:.

#10. Amazon: not too bad because I didn't know what to ask ... so it's my fault. Tuition paid.

...

#1001 Current: she said she'll do story flow and development but during our one on one session, she corrected my usage of words and grammar. I don't need the copy editing yet. I need to iron out my story first ...


I think I need an editor to actually edit my story flow and development. Will the editor ever be critical? I'm wondering why is it so hard to find one? Even a bad writer deserves a suitable editor, doesn't she?

Dear Editors, when you say story line and development, do you really mean it??? OR what do you really mean?

Thank you for suffering through my Chinglish :D Have a great weekend.
 
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cornflake

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Well, that all sounds kind of torturous, heh.

I'm only guessing, as I don't know the people involved, obviously, but it doesn't sound like most of these were the most... professional, experienced, or well-trained people. If you're looking for a developmental/big-picture type edit, and people are just discussing your grammar, there's an issue (which could be that your grasp of English is so tenuous that they had a hard time even reading your work, though judging by your post here, that seems unlikely).

Before you agree to work with someone, you should be clear on what you're looking for, and the editor you employ should be clear on what they're being engaged to do, and how they work (timeframe, costs, communication, etc.).

As for the people just praising, or worse, making no comments, I've told people when I've thought something was really good (really, I have! <-- disclaimer for people who know me), but first, there are, you know, reasons I'll give that relate to the work, and second, there's nothing that can't be improved.

So, while I don't know what happened beyond the sketches you're providing, those don't sound like proper, professional editorial interactions.

You should both be clear on what you want, and editors should do what they say they will, without just blowing smoke.

Finally, $200 for two pages and an hour? Fuck me, I clearly don't charge enough. Heh.
 
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Irene Eng

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Well, that all sounds kind of torturous, heh.

..
$200 for two pages and an hour? Fuck me, I clearly don't charge enough. Heh.

Thanks Cornflake! It's torturous and frustrating.

The $200 Editor was the worst, imho!

With other editors, my need has always been simple: I've too much materials to work with, so I need guidance on flow and development. Then copy editing. I hope my expectation is correct :Shrug:
 

goddessofgliese

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My experience: (All for developmental editing)

#1: $300. He provided nothing of value. Complete waste of money.

#2: She charged me less than $500 on a 100K-word manuscript. She was really good and I learned a lot from her. Honestly, when I grew into a better writer a few years later, I cringed to think how she had been able to soldier on while reading such a horribly written story. Anyway, I hired her a few more times.

#3. $750. He provided service that was probably only worth $300.

#4. $1750 on 110k-word manuscript. She was pretty good, too. Lots and lots of notes.

#5. $750. Another male editor that turned out to be a scammer.

#6. $2K on 80k-word manuscript. Former acquisition editor of one of the big five. She gave great overall big-picture review, but very little notes throughout the manuscript. Not happy for the amount of money I paid.

After #6, I'm done with developmental editors. I'll stick with beta readers.
 
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WeaselFire

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If you need a development editor, make sure you exhausted beta readers first, then shelve the project for a year and take another stab at it. If you have a story to tell that is a guaranteed sell, such as "How I seduced a President" or "The 27 serial killers I've captured" but you aren't that great a writer, hire a development editor and a ghostwriter.

I know two, pretty good, development editors, both teach in major universities and both provide the service for students and will do contract work. They turn down 90% of requests because the author doesn't need a development editor or doesn't know what one is. One told me she gets about half the requests from people who can't handle basic spelling or grammar in the email they send, which is an automatic no.

Personally, if I can't figure out a story, then it probably isn't ready to be told yet.

Jeff
 

Siri Kirpal

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I once hired a male editor who charged $1000 to critique a proposal and complete ms that I'd had a hard time finding an agent or publisher for. He gave me invaluable advice on changing the title, the overview of the proposal and what to add to and subtract from the ms. The next publisher I approached published it. That's Sikh Spiritual Practice in my avie.

The way you find a genuine good quality editor is by looking for editors that belong to quality organizations. There's a list of such organizations at the back of Jeff Herman's Guide (not remembering the specific title). You can probably find a copy in a library.

Blessings,

Siri Kirpal
 

Michael Myers

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I rely heavily on my developmental editor. As a former MFA professor of 20 years, he is in many ways my teacher. He charges $75/hour for as many hours as he considers necessary. I consider it tuition and well worth the cost. His opinions can brutalize tender egos but are always the truth. He no longer accepts new clients.
 

Irene Eng

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My experience: (All for developmental editing)


#2: She charged me less than $500 on a 100K-word manuscript. She was really good and I learned a lot from her. Honestly, when I grew into a better writer a few years later, I cringed to think how she had been able to soldier on while reading such a horribly written story. Anyway, I hired her a few more times.


#4. $1750 on 110k-word manuscript. She was pretty good, too. Lots and lots of notes.


#6. $2K on 80k-word manuscript. Former acquisition editor of one of the big five. She gave great overall big-picture review, but very little notes throughout the manuscript. Not happy for the amount of money I paid.

After #6, I'm done with developmental editors. I'll stick with beta readers.
Thank you Goddess for sharing! I'll try the beta readers ...
 

Irene Eng

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Sat Nam! (Literally "Truth Name"--a Sikh greeting)

I once hired a male editor who charged $1000 to critique a proposal and complete ms that I'd had a hard time finding an agent or publisher for. He gave me invaluable advice on changing the title, the overview of the proposal and what to add to and subtract from the ms. The next publisher I approached published it. That's Sikh Spiritual Practice in my avie.

The way you find a genuine good quality editor is by looking for editors that belong to quality organizations. There's a list of such organizations at the back of Jeff Herman's Guide (not remembering the specific title). You can probably find a copy in a library.

Blessings,

Siri Kirpal


Thanks Siri, so glad it worked out for you!!
 

Irene Eng

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If you need a development editor, make sure you exhausted beta readers first, then shelve the project for a year and take another stab at it. If you have a story to tell that is a guaranteed sell, such as "How I seduced a President" or "The 27 serial killers I've captured" but you aren't that great a writer, hire a development editor and a ghostwriter.

I know two, pretty good, development editors, both teach in major universities and both provide the service for students and will do contract work. They turn down 90% of requests because the author doesn't need a development editor or doesn't know what one is. One told me she gets about half the requests from people who can't handle basic spelling or grammar in the email they send, which is an automatic no.

Personally, if I can't figure out a story, then it probably isn't ready to be told yet.

Jeff
Thanks Jeff, for your insight. Will try the beta readers ...
 

Irene Eng

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I rely heavily on my developmental editor. As a former MFA professor of 20 years, he is in many ways my teacher. He charges $75/hour for as many hours as he considers necessary. I consider it tuition and well worth the cost. His opinions can brutalize tender egos but are always the truth. He no longer accepts new clients.


Thanks Michael. I so agree it's a tuition ... but as with all teachers (and anything in between ....), some are excellent while others aren't.
 

KBooks

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I would suggest going with beta readers (swap! you can help each other out!), and I would suggest being very, very blunt about your needs/wishes.

I think for most people it is human nature to 1) attempt to address the most obvious problems first and 2) perhaps try to not "pile on" by listing so many things that are wrong that they feel like meanies.

Since you know there are going to be grammar usage issues going on in your work that you fully expect to later clean up with a good copy edit tell your betas from the start to please ignore all grammar/punctuation/spelling issues and focus ONLY on story, plot, characters, whatever. I love it when I'm beta-reading and the person sends me a list of questions. That helps me to know what they're looking for.

Because everyone has their own critting style, it will help if you are very clear that you want critical feedback, LOTS of it, NO praise, and that it will NOT hurt your feelings. If you go to the "share your work" section of this site, you will see there is a wide range of reactions to feedback. Some people are cool with very direct feedback. Other people ask for very gentle crits. I suspect everyone has their own reaction to having beta'ed and edited for a while and encountered those different reactions, but I think you can probably maximize your chances of finding someone who will provide you what you're looking for by being very clear what that is.
 
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Irene Eng

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I would suggest going with beta readers (swap! you can help each other out!), and I would suggest being very, very blunt about your needs/wishes.

I think for most people it is human nature to 1) attempt to address the most obvious problems first and 2) perhaps try to not "pile on" by listing so many things that are wrong that they feel like meanies.

Since you know there are going to be grammar usage issues going on in your work that you fully expect to later clean up with a good copy edit tell your betas from the start to please ignore all grammar/punctuation/spelling issues and focus ONLY on story, plot, characters, whatever. I love it when I'm beta-reading and the person sends me a list of questions. That helps me to know what they're looking for.

Because everyone has their own critting style, it will help if you are very clear that you want critical feedback, LOTS of it, NO praise, and that it will NOT hurt your feelings. If you go to the "share your work" section of this site, you will see there is a wide range of reactions to feedback. Some people are cool with very direct feedback. Other people ask for very gentle crits. I suspect everyone has their own reaction to having beta'ed and edited for a while and encountered those different reactions, but I think you can probably maximize your chances of finding someone who will provide you what you're looking for by being very clear what that is.
Thank you Kat, good insight. I'll keep that in mind ...


meanies :welcome:
 

WeaselFire

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Thanks Michael. I so agree it's a tuition ... but as with all teachers (and anything in between ....), some are excellent while others aren't.

This may actually be the key in finding a good developmental editor. I only know long-time and respected professors who are good at this, and they have published works themselves to back it up. One of the best ways to find one might be to take a course from them first. Not everyone learns or works in the same way. A friend of mine had a fantastic professor who normally teaches graduate level classes but took over her writing class when her original professor was injured in an auto accident and out for the rest of the semester. She published her first three books with help from him over the years, as well as recommendations to agents. Sometimes life works out well.

Also, in response to Siri's comment, there's a difference between fiction and non-fiction work in that you do a lot of the developmental work before you write the book. I've done a fair amount of technical editing and, as part of the process, referenced the order things appear in as well as whether they fit the topic intended. There are quite a few decent technical writers who have English as a second language and approach things in a way their US readers may not. The developmental process can work wonders in making a book sell well.

Hope you have better luck in the future.

Jeff