When's the best time to get a story beta read: While it's in Progress or After it's entirely done?

MKnightium · Mar 23, 2019

Context time,

I've been working on two novels that might be eligible to be turned over to Parvus Press when they're done. But, due to my anxiety, I keep getting worried things don't flow right, and I end up trying to get them looked at while they're in progress, instead of doing what many do and get the story edited and looked at when it's as done as it can be.

I'm just mainly asking if this is the right way: working up to a certain point and then getting it looked over, instead of getting it looked over all at once when it's finished.

...need to get that anxiety looked, also, but that's an unrelated note. Might be pills for that somewhere.

Brightdreamer · Mar 23, 2019

IMHO, it's best to get a beta read when you have it as good and presentable as you can get it alone: that's when you can benefit from other eyes on the piece, because you know you've taken it as far as you yourself can, but you still don't know how an outsider will view it. (And the best time for an outsider to view it is before releasing it into the wild, while you have a chance to consider feedback and whether you've met your goal of conveying your story effectively.)

The one possible exception is if you're stuck on an issue and have a trusted "muse"/partner who can look over what you have and make suggestions for getting unstuck, but this would be a far more specialized relationship than just general beta-reading; the reader would have to understand that the story is coming to them because it's flawed, and ideally that reader would also understand you well enough to consider where you want to go with it and help you get there.

mccardey · Mar 23, 2019

I think a beta read is best done when the thing has been written, polished, set aside and re-read. A beta is a terrible thing to waste.

I think what you're looking for at the moment is more along the lines of a critique partner. (There are places here on the boards where you can look for both.)

D. E. Wyatt · Mar 23, 2019

I'm curious whether a beta should be done before or after it's been given a professional edit.

Kat M · Mar 23, 2019

D. E. Wyatt said:
I'm curious whether a beta should be done before or after it's been given a professional edit.

The advice I've seen tends to lean towards before. Say a large portion of your story isn't working for multiple betas, and you have to do substantive rewrites—then you might end up throwing out a lot of what the editor has seen, wasting the editing $$$.

Thomas Vail · Mar 25, 2019

D. E. Wyatt said:
I'm curious whether a beta should be done before or after it's been given a professional edit.

Before. If you've submitted it to an editor, you're rather past the point where beta readers would be most useful.

Woollybear · Mar 26, 2019

I get lots of eyeballs on my work, and fwiw one beta or even three betas might not be any sort of magic bullet for a piece. It's not unusual to get no actionable feedback from a reader, or the wrong feedback, or for it to be clear that the beta reader misunderstood something and spent six weeks reading your work with the wrong understanding.

But, if you have lots of feedback, you start to see where the general issues are and over time you start to see changes in what the betas are saying. Hopefully that is toward improvement.

I'd suggest workshopping a few excerpts at a critique group. If people say your excerpts are too stiff, or too confusing, or purple, or whatever--you can apply that feedback to your whole book. Also compare your work to the authors you hope to emulate. Look at your work side-by-side with whomever you are hoping to sit next to on the shelf. Ask yourself what they have or what they do, that you do not? Look critically, and then learn how to improve those pieces of your writing. Craft books are also another alternative. There are tons.

The editor should be the last thing.

guyjin37 · Mar 26, 2019

As others have noted, it's probably best to have to have a novel beta read after you're done, but before any editors touch it.

Having said that, make sure your definition of "done" matches the majority. It doesn't tend to mean "done with the first draft." But it sounds like you know that part.

Carrie in PA · Mar 27, 2019

Patty said:
<snip>I'd suggest workshopping a few excerpts at a critique group. <snip>

I'd also recommend a critique group. I know you have some anxiety issues, but most crit groups will allow you to come and observe for a meeting or two, so you wouldn't have to put yourself out there right off the bat. You'd be able to get a feel for the group and see how they offer feedback.

As for beta readers - I always give it to betas after I've gotten it finished and revised at least once on my own. The thought of giving someone a partial bit of a first draft is my own personal nightmare. I don't want an outside opinion to shape my story while it's being formed.

MKnightium · Mar 27, 2019

Alright, this is a lot of helpful feedback (that I wish I got notified about. Emails just told me there was a single comment but, not more) and it's pointing towards finding a critique group or a dedicated partner for that instead of outright looking for a beta reader. I'll look around for some but, are there any here? Sort of weird question but, still feeling my way around these parts for the most part.

Sarahrizz · Mar 27, 2019

MKnightium said:
Alright, this is a lot of helpful feedback (that I wish I got notified about. Emails just told me there was a single comment but, not more) and it's pointing towards finding a critique group or a dedicated partner for that instead of outright looking for a beta reader. I'll look around for some but, are there any here? Sort of weird question but, still feeling my way around these parts for the most part.

The way the notifications work, it notifies you for one, then it doesn't send a notification email until you log in again on the page. It can kind of be annoying when you are away from a PC, but that's how it all works.

On the feedback question: I find it really depends on the writer. When I write, I prefer getting things out completely before I ask anyone to read it, unless I am stuck on something that is. Then I come here...
But my mom, on the other hand, needs constant feedback. She'll write one session and be asking you to read her piece again. It can be hard when you're also working on your own piece, but that's where other family members come in handy. :Hug2:

mccardey · Mar 27, 2019

MKnightium said:
Alright, this is a lot of helpful feedback (that I wish I got notified about. Emails just told me there was a single comment but, not more) and it's pointing towards finding a critique group or a dedicated partner for that instead of outright looking for a beta reader. I'll look around for some but, are there any here? Sort of weird question but, still feeling my way around these parts for the most part.

Here's a little thing we prepared earlier...

NINA28 · Mar 30, 2019

In my opinion it's best to get it read by others when it's as good as you can make it. Reading the whole thing gives people the entire things not just one element or one situation. They can really see all the ingredients in the pie.

Having said that, if you're having a problem somewhere you could just approach people with that. Or if you're learning and want to see if you've put something into practise. Like character arc or plot points.

AW Admin · Mar 30, 2019

We have an entire sub-forum about beta reading and finding a beta.

I'm going to move this there.

Kat M · Mar 30, 2019

NINA28 said:
Having said that, if you're having a problem somewhere you could just approach people with that. Or if you're learning and want to see if you've put something into practise. Like character arc or plot points.

Ooh, good eyes! I didn't see that part of the OP's question until you said something.
And we happen to have a handy-dandy Brainstorming Sandbox for that sort of thing. (Password = vista.)

Welcome both of you.

WeaselFire · Apr 2, 2019

If you ain't done with it it ain't ready to be read.

Critique groups work on small sections, often a page or two, maybe a chapter. A beta should read the entire story.

Frankly, I run 50/50 on betas, both those I get and those I do. I usually ask for some specific answers, such as "Does the secondary plot make sense?" or "Is the dialog between to the two main characters too heavily romantic?" I have gotten beta results that were thirty pages and rewrote the plot line to be that of the latest super-hero movie and others that were a dozen words about how great a story it is. Neither are much help. The best betas fill a niche I can't, such as a female view or the view of a wounded veteran.

I have also agreed to do betas that turn out to be half-finished or random thoughts. I did one where the language failed basic grammar and I just couldn't understand what the author was saying. And I've gotten betas that are completely polished with very few plot or character issues where my comments are usually just asking for more clarity or a deeper explanation. I've also gotten some that are hard to make suggestions for without bending the plot line or rewriting it but which probably do well as written. I did one where I read an absolutely wonderful adult romance that was really a perfect middle-grade first romance story. I made that suggestion to the author and she ended up rewriting it as such and got her top choice agent on the first round of submissions. In her second book, the protagonist adopted a puppy named Jeffrey in my honor.

Jeff

MKnightium · Apr 2, 2019

Huh, so the thread's been moved. Neat, and unexpected.

But, so far, I'm gonna scour the rest of this subfourm and see about finding a group or something and ask them for some feedback. I'm once again considering rewriting the novel but in third person omniscient but, I'm also afraid I might end up accidentally head hop which could turn people off to the story. But, hopefully, the critique group thing should help me determine which route would be a better one for me to take with the novel.

chrisjhalk · Apr 6, 2019

D. E. Wyatt said:
I'm curious whether a beta should be done before or after it's been given a professional edit.

I would absolutely say before a professional edit. If you spend the cash to have it professionally edited, only to have it ripped apart by beta readers, redone by you, and then pay for a professional edit again. It makes me think the professional edit before the beta reader is a huge waste of time. But like other posters say, clean it up as best as you can. I find that the editor in Microsoft Word is really pretty good. I think good enough for a turn over to a beta reader.

chrisjhalk · Apr 6, 2019

WeaselFire said:
If you ain't done with it it ain't ready to be read.

Critique groups work on small sections, often a page or two, maybe a chapter. A beta should read the entire story.

Frankly, I run 50/50 on betas, both those I get and those I do. I usually ask for some specific answers, such as "Does the secondary plot make sense?" or "Is the dialog between to the two main characters too heavily romantic?" I have gotten beta results that were thirty pages and rewrote the plot line to be that of the latest super-hero movie and others that were a dozen words about how great a story it is. Neither are much help. The best betas fill a niche I can't, such as a female view or the view of a wounded veteran.

I have also agreed to do betas that turn out to be half-finished or random thoughts. I did one where the language failed basic grammar and I just couldn't understand what the author was saying. And I've gotten betas that are completely polished with very few plot or character issues where my comments are usually just asking for more clarity or a deeper explanation. I've also gotten some that are hard to make suggestions for without bending the plot line or rewriting it but which probably do well as written. I did one where I read an absolutely wonderful adult romance that was really a perfect middle-grade first romance story. I made that suggestion to the author and she ended up rewriting it as such and got her top choice agent on the first round of submissions. In her second book, the protagonist adopted a puppy named Jeffrey in my honor.

Jeff

I am not entirely certain I agree with this, but I understand what WeaseFire is saying - and to be sure - he isn't wrong, I just don't agree.

I have submitted my novel in it's entirely to beta readers. They start out strong and then towards the end, it dies off in comments. You could argue this is just because it's bad writing and I leave room for that. But I also think it has a lot to do with reader fatigue while doing a job. Giving them one chapter allows for a far more in-depth review and I find that more comments are done on a chapter by chapter review instead of an entire novel.

I would recommend that either in Critique Groups or in Beta reading, that an absolute max is two chapters. My advice is always one chapter for beta readers and for critique groups.

Anyway, that is just me.

shadowsminder · Apr 6, 2019

I miss when (or where?) alpha reader and beta reader were both terms in use.

An alpha reader was one of the first test readers for a work. The alpha reader was someone the writer trusted enough to help guide the direction of the story during the writing of the first draft and/or within the initial revisions.

A beta reader is a test reader of the completed and polished work. The purpose of the beta reader used to be to catch mistakes before the book went to the editor or reviewers. Now beta reader stands in for test reader.

Test readers can be useful at every stage. For those of us with high anxiety, a trusted first reader can be essential to pointing what is and isn't working to get out of a disastrous mental loop.

When's the best time to get a story beta read: While it's in Progress or After it's entirely done?

MKnightium

Brightdreamer

Just Another Lazy Perfectionist

mccardey

D. E. Wyatt

Kat M

Ooh, look! String!

Thomas Vail

What?

Woollybear

guyjin37

Carrie in PA

Write All The Words!

MKnightium

Sarahrizz

mccardey

NINA28

AW Admin

Kat M

Ooh, look! String!

WeaselFire

Benefactor Member

MKnightium

chrisjhalk

chrisjhalk

shadowsminder

writing in the shadows