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Is extended nudity allowed in Upper MG?
- Thread starter coffeehunter
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I'm not sure what the issue is here, coffeehunter.
What you outline seems perfectly reasonable to me so I guess what's causing me to stumble is understanding what you mean by 'excessive' nudity.
I can't visualise how the narrative coverage (sorry about the pun) can be excessive if it's treated as outlined in the two paragraphs above, beginning 'In its broadest sense...'
What you outline seems perfectly reasonable to me so I guess what's causing me to stumble is understanding what you mean by 'excessive' nudity.
I can't visualise how the narrative coverage (sorry about the pun) can be excessive if it's treated as outlined in the two paragraphs above, beginning 'In its broadest sense...'
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Thanks, Buffy. I've always enjoyed your input. Sorry about my word choice. What I meant was the nudity is more than the usual found in such books, which made me wonder and worry if the transition was going to be worth the time. I'm glad the description sounds reasonable. I feel encouraged to go ahead with the transition. Thanks.
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I wish you luck but I still don't know what you mean by 'more than the usual'. Surely all I need to know is that the tribesfolk wear loincloths or whatever. Why does the nudity aspect need to be dwelt upon when it will be obvious to anyone why tribesfolk in say an Amazonian scenario wear little to nothing?
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Buffy: The MC semi-dwells on it because of being new to the culture and adapting.
I'm going to do us a favor and remove the story detail. While I like sharing context and being as clear as possible, I think this is more of a general question, and maybe it'd be helpful to others.
In more simpler terms:
Is it fine in Upper MG to have a long duration of non-detailed nudity as long as it fits the plot and culture/setting, and that such nudity is kept to the background as much as possible? Examples: tribal/rainforest, historical, etc.
It sounds like yes so far as long as it's reasonable. I feel encouraged enough to go for it.
I'm going to do us a favor and remove the story detail. While I like sharing context and being as clear as possible, I think this is more of a general question, and maybe it'd be helpful to others.
In more simpler terms:
Is it fine in Upper MG to have a long duration of non-detailed nudity as long as it fits the plot and culture/setting, and that such nudity is kept to the background as much as possible? Examples: tribal/rainforest, historical, etc.
It sounds like yes so far as long as it's reasonable. I feel encouraged enough to go for it.
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It's a book, not a movie. After a couple of mentions when it's really new to the character, just continue with the actual story. How often are clothes mentioned in the course of a non-nudity story?
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Sorry, phone trouble.
Makes sense. The MC is going through this story and adapting almost day by day, so I think a perfect solution would be a time gap so it's less something to bring up. I hate time gaps, but this isn't Fox's 24. It's a book.thanks.
Makes sense. The MC is going through this story and adapting almost day by day, so I think a perfect solution would be a time gap so it's less something to bring up. I hate time gaps, but this isn't Fox's 24. It's a book.thanks.
Why would you need a time gap though? After the first couple mentions the reader would know about it and realize the kid is getting used to it.
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Phone browser trouble again, sorry.
You're right and it depends on the character. I guess it would be an interesting question on how long it would take to adapt. I think it varies on will, background and belief systems. For kids, maybe less so.
On my story, one kid has been there for two weeks and he's close to being used to it. The MC has been there for 4 days, and he's having moments of being fine with it. However, there's a bully making his adapting a little harder, too. The bully gets taken down on day three.
Because of this, I think it's reasonable that the MC can't just think of it twice and it would be gone. But minimalizing mentions is a good tip. Generally, I just tend to do so where it's relevant to mention it. If it's not, I don't.
You're right and it depends on the character. I guess it would be an interesting question on how long it would take to adapt. I think it varies on will, background and belief systems. For kids, maybe less so.
On my story, one kid has been there for two weeks and he's close to being used to it. The MC has been there for 4 days, and he's having moments of being fine with it. However, there's a bully making his adapting a little harder, too. The bully gets taken down on day three.
Because of this, I think it's reasonable that the MC can't just think of it twice and it would be gone. But minimalizing mentions is a good tip. Generally, I just tend to do so where it's relevant to mention it. If it's not, I don't.
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Well, I feel satisfied with my OP question and will move on. I appreciate all the thoughts and tips. If anyone wants to leave extra tips/advice or discuss, feel free to do so.
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European answer - I appreciate that some USA people are a bit more iffy about nudity. There's UK specific info as well - note that Brits are considered a bit prudish by European standards.
Here is the PEGI website guidance https://pegi.info/what-do-the-labels-mean This is guidance on what is and is not acceptable for video games for the different age ratings. It's a system used in Europe (not sure if that's just the EU or the whole of Europe). PEGI 7 means not suitable for children under 7, etc.
The section on sex (i.e. what would require the sex warning label to be on the game) says "This content descriptor can accompany a PEGI 12 rating if the game includes sexual posturing or innuendo, a PEGI 16 rating if there is erotic nudity or sexual intercourse without visible genitals or a PEGI 18 rating if there is explicit sexual activity in the game. Depictions of nudity in a non-sexual content do not require a specific age rating, and this descriptor would not be necessary." In other words, games with PEGI 3 (the lowest rating) can have non-sexual nudity.
Although this is for video games, parents' expectations of book content won't be that different. If anything, nudity's much less of an issue in books because you don't actually see anything. I can think of lots of British children's books with non-sexual nudity, including books for toddlers that involve learning about bath time and potty training.
Here's the British Board of Film Classification website's page about U certificate (universal/suitable for all) https://www.bbfc.co.uk/what-classification/u - the section on nudity says "Occasional nudity, with no sexual context." - i.e. non sexual nudity is acceptable. In a context where everyone's naked because their culture doesn't do clothes, they'll likely shoot and edit the film carefully so it's clear that people are naked but genitals aren't shown on screen. (See the link at the end - but in a non-humorous setting the not showing of genitals would be a lot more subtle. Also, occasional glimpses aren't likely to be an issue.) ETA: they may not even edit it out if it's in the context of a documentary. I'm not 100% clear of the rules, but this is in relation to on-screen shots of genitals. A context where people just don't wear clothes is not an issue at all. Also, this is U certificate (suitable for all ages). MG books can have 12A certificate content so really, truly, what you're talking about is not an issue.
I realise that the USA is different (but surely not that different?); there was a really interesting article about this on the BBFC website but I can't find it
USA parents tend to be more concerned about sex and nudity while UK parents are more concerned about violence and threat. Film ratings can reflect this, for example there are films that get a 15* rating in the UK because of threat/violence while in the USA they get a lower rating (like the USA equivalent of 12A*) and there's an example of a film that was PG* in the UK but got an adults only rating in the USA because there's a brief scene with full frontal nudity in it (can't remember if there was any implied sex or not, but there was no explicit sex in the film), but as it was not marketed as a children's film and the scene was brief it got a PG rating.
*15 = no-one under 15 is allowed into the film; 12A = children under 12 must be accompanied by an adult; PG = some scenes may be unsuitable for young children, but there are no restrictions on who's allowed in. Most kids' films are PG.
Also, last time I took my kids to the cinema, they showed this ad https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgUzu1-g9-U and the film had a U rating. (Ads and trailers must be rated the same as the film.) I hope this allays your concerns, at least as far as European audiences go...
Here is the PEGI website guidance https://pegi.info/what-do-the-labels-mean This is guidance on what is and is not acceptable for video games for the different age ratings. It's a system used in Europe (not sure if that's just the EU or the whole of Europe). PEGI 7 means not suitable for children under 7, etc.
The section on sex (i.e. what would require the sex warning label to be on the game) says "This content descriptor can accompany a PEGI 12 rating if the game includes sexual posturing or innuendo, a PEGI 16 rating if there is erotic nudity or sexual intercourse without visible genitals or a PEGI 18 rating if there is explicit sexual activity in the game. Depictions of nudity in a non-sexual content do not require a specific age rating, and this descriptor would not be necessary." In other words, games with PEGI 3 (the lowest rating) can have non-sexual nudity.
Although this is for video games, parents' expectations of book content won't be that different. If anything, nudity's much less of an issue in books because you don't actually see anything. I can think of lots of British children's books with non-sexual nudity, including books for toddlers that involve learning about bath time and potty training.
Here's the British Board of Film Classification website's page about U certificate (universal/suitable for all) https://www.bbfc.co.uk/what-classification/u - the section on nudity says "Occasional nudity, with no sexual context." - i.e. non sexual nudity is acceptable. In a context where everyone's naked because their culture doesn't do clothes, they'll likely shoot and edit the film carefully so it's clear that people are naked but genitals aren't shown on screen. (See the link at the end - but in a non-humorous setting the not showing of genitals would be a lot more subtle. Also, occasional glimpses aren't likely to be an issue.) ETA: they may not even edit it out if it's in the context of a documentary. I'm not 100% clear of the rules, but this is in relation to on-screen shots of genitals. A context where people just don't wear clothes is not an issue at all. Also, this is U certificate (suitable for all ages). MG books can have 12A certificate content so really, truly, what you're talking about is not an issue.
I realise that the USA is different (but surely not that different?); there was a really interesting article about this on the BBFC website but I can't find it
USA parents tend to be more concerned about sex and nudity while UK parents are more concerned about violence and threat. Film ratings can reflect this, for example there are films that get a 15* rating in the UK because of threat/violence while in the USA they get a lower rating (like the USA equivalent of 12A*) and there's an example of a film that was PG* in the UK but got an adults only rating in the USA because there's a brief scene with full frontal nudity in it (can't remember if there was any implied sex or not, but there was no explicit sex in the film), but as it was not marketed as a children's film and the scene was brief it got a PG rating. *15 = no-one under 15 is allowed into the film; 12A = children under 12 must be accompanied by an adult; PG = some scenes may be unsuitable for young children, but there are no restrictions on who's allowed in. Most kids' films are PG.
Also, last time I took my kids to the cinema, they showed this ad https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgUzu1-g9-U and the film had a U rating. (Ads and trailers must be rated the same as the film.) I hope this allays your concerns, at least as far as European audiences go...
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I'm sorry, coffeehunter, but I still fail to follow what the issue is here. Posts 6 and 8 are valid responses.
What on earth is 'a long duration of non-detailed nudity'? It suggests more than one occasion where pages of dialogue or description relate to one character's reaction to seeing nude natives, which sounds pretty boring. Isn't the story itself more interesting than the fact the natives wear clothes appropriate to their climate?
I honestly think you may be over-thinking this issue. If the MC isn't having really serious issues about confronting nudity in a perfectly natural surrounding like an Amazonian tribe the topic shouldn't be dwelt upon at all because there's no reason to dwell upon it beyond making the reader initially aware of the setting. And if the MC is having issues, it has to be questioned what he's doing there in the first place unless the book really has a message on the topic of accepting nudity or whatever, although I have no idea what an Upper Middle Grade reader would make of such a message.
Good luck- and it might have been helpful if an example of one of these 'long durations of non-detailed nudity' were posted so we could see what the perceived issue is.
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Buffy, kindly saying, but there's a point on dwelling on my previous question, too, when it's been said to be satisfied twice now. I do appreciate your caring for my success with the story though. Only the author knows the story, so goes the old saying. I think it's more of a question for beta readers at this point, although my current alpha readers have shared no concern and enjoy the character. I've just never read an Upper MG book with extended nudity, so I was merely justifying that it's fine based on execution/setting. The MC's adapting is another issue that continues to improve when editing. One suggestion was to keep the mentions to a minimal, and I think it is, but am scanning through the manuscript again. Earlier, I said if it's relevant or necessary then it is kept, and the goal right now is to find and remove mentions if it is not relevant or necessary. Thanks again for the good luck!
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European answer - I appreciate that some USA people are a bit more iffy about nudity. There's UK specific info as well - note that Brits are considered a bit prudish by European standards.
Here is the PEGI website guidance https://pegi.info/what-do-the-labels-mean This is guidance on what is and is not acceptable for video games for the different age ratings. It's a system used in Europe (not sure if that's just the EU or the whole of Europe). PEGI 7 means not suitable for children under 7, etc.
The section on sex (i.e. what would require the sex warning label to be on the game) says "This content descriptor can accompany a PEGI 12 rating if the game includes sexual posturing or innuendo, a PEGI 16 rating if there is erotic nudity or sexual intercourse without visible genitals or a PEGI 18 rating if there is explicit sexual activity in the game. Depictions of nudity in a non-sexual content do not require a specific age rating, and this descriptor would not be necessary." In other words, games with PEGI 3 (the lowest rating) can have non-sexual nudity.
Although this is for video games, parents' expectations of book content won't be that different. If anything, nudity's much less of an issue in books because you don't actually see anything. I can think of lots of British children's books with non-sexual nudity, including books for toddlers that involve learning about bath time and potty training.
Here's the British Board of Film Classification website's page about U certificate (universal/suitable for all) https://www.bbfc.co.uk/what-classification/u - the section on nudity says "Occasional nudity, with no sexual context." - i.e. non sexual nudity is acceptable. In a context where everyone's naked because their culture doesn't do clothes, they'll likely shoot and edit the film carefully so it's clear that people are naked but genitals aren't shown on screen. (See the link at the end - but in a non-humorous setting the not showing of genitals would be a lot more subtle. Also, occasional glimpses aren't likely to be an issue.) ETA: they may not even edit it out if it's in the context of a documentary. I'm not 100% clear of the rules, but this is in relation to on-screen shots of genitals. A context where people just don't wear clothes is not an issue at all. Also, this is U certificate (suitable for all ages). MG books can have 12A certificate content so really, truly, what you're talking about is not an issue.
I realise that the USA is different (but surely not that different?); there was a really interesting article about this on the BBFC website but I can't find it
*15 = no-one under 15 is allowed into the film; 12A = children under 12 must be accompanied by an adult; PG = some scenes may be unsuitable for young children, but there are no restrictions on who's allowed in. Most kids' films are PG.
Also, last time I took my kids to the cinema, they showed this ad https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgUzu1-g9-U and the film had a U rating. (Ads and trailers must be rated the same as the film.) I hope this allays your concerns, at least as far as European audiences go...
Very informative for Europeans. Thanks for sharing!
If by time gap you are referring to how long it would take for the MC to become comfortable with his own public nudity, then that would be an individual question. Some people are quite happy to get about with their kit off and others take time to adjust. I’ve done it from time to time (various humorous reasons) but never feel entirely normal. OTOH one of my students once went on an overseas holiday and went to a nudist beach and even though he’d never been in the skin before he adapted after just a few hours of exposure (deliberate pun), even with all of the staring at his “attributes” (his words, not mine).
I think the rest of your question has already been answered by others. Do whatever your story needs, it’s no big deal if you don’t want it to be.
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Yeah, although my question is answered, I do feel the adapting duration is debatable for my character. I do think a ten year old is less likely to go by religious, moral and background reasons that is more developed in an adult. Currently, it takes him 4 days to start braving it out, and 2 weeks to fully adapt. The reason is due to his character and background. But having new friends typically encourages one to do new, sometimes crazy things, and he has a new best friend there, so I feel encouraged to experiment with reducing his braving/adapting time by half, as well as unnecessary adaption mentions, and see how that goes during this new edit. I think it will move him along a little quicker and jump into the story's conflict a little sooner. Thanks!
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I'm wondering how the average MG reader would feel about reading about a tribe that is nude? I would definitely try to get some age-appropriate beta readers.