calling all firefighters!

Siri Kirpal

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Sat Nam! (literally "Truth Name"--a Sikh greeting)

Okay, here's the scenario:

Basics: Small town in suburban Western Oregon, close to a fictional county seat. Large Victorian house/mansion on about 6 acres. Carriage house is on the opposite side of the carriage drive and perhaps 50 feet down the carriage drive from it. It's the main place of business for the owners of the mansion and their friend, the mc. Abandoned pasture/berry patch on the other side of the carriage house. The house fronts on one street, but most traffic and most cars come in by way of the back street. The back street has several houses fronting it opposite the carriage & mansion, a minimum of fifty feet away, and much more in most cases.

Arsons set fire (using gasoline) to the carriage house in the late evening after most of the people in the mansion are in bed. One of those people, whose bedroom faces the carriage house, notices the fire, calls 911, and notifies everyone else. They are getting out of the house as the firetruck arrives. They will be leaving out the front door, but the firetruck(s) will arrive on the back street. Any firefighters trying to get to the mansion will have to go around the block or past the fire to get there. By the time the truck arrives, the carriage house will be beyond redemption.

An off-duty police officer will drive by (his house is on the other side of the mansion and down the road a few blocks) perhaps some twenty minutes or so after the truck arrives. He will offer assistance.

Questions:

1. What are the firefighters going to do first?
2. How are they going to contact the residents of the mansion who are standing on the other side of the mansion's front street?
3. Are they going to contact the people in the houses on the other side of the street from the carriage house?
4. When the residents be allowed back in? (the mansion doesn't catch fire)
5. When will media arrive?
6. What tasks will the police officer be set? There will be an on-duty officer who I assume will be redirecting traffic.
7. How long will it take to get the fire out? (Yes, I know, it depends, but...)
8. How long will the smell last?
9. Anything obvious I need to know?

Thanks for any and all help.

Blessings,

Siri Kirpal
 

MaeZe

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...
Questions:

1. What are the firefighters going to do first?
2. How are they going to contact the residents of the mansion who are standing on the other side of the mansion's front street?
3. Are they going to contact the people in the houses on the other side of the street from the carriage house?
4. When the residents be allowed back in? (the mansion doesn't catch fire)
5. When will media arrive?
6. What tasks will the police officer be set? There will be an on-duty officer who I assume will be redirecting traffic.
7. How long will it take to get the fire out? (Yes, I know, it depends, but...)
8. How long will the smell last?
9. Anything obvious I need to know?

Thanks for any and all help.

Blessings,

Siri Kirpal
I don't understand the fire fighters arriving from the back. Why would they arrive that way?

#1 First step is to assess the building on fire. What kind of details are you looking for?
Tasks include saving people if there are any. Then they fight the fire from inside if they can. They vent the roof, letting the hot gasses escape to prevent a flashover. They essentially 'push' the fire out if they can. If they can't do any of those things they protect other structures.

#2 I don't understand why the people in front of the house wouldn't just head toward the firefighters. They'd be interviewed starting with, "is there anyone inside the burning structure?"

#3 Not unless there is a reason. Fire investigation generally occurs the next day after the fire is out. And I suspect the police would be the neighborhood canvassers if the fire inspector determined the fire was suspicious.

#4 If the mansion wasn't involved in the fire, the fire department wouldn't have anything to do with the mansion. You said the two buildings were separate.

#5, 6, 7 all depend.

#8 The smell will last days. Had a fire in a rooming house I lived in once, only one unit burned. They told all of us to leave for the night, they put huge fans in several locations to get the smoke out. If you don't leave they said we'd all have terrible headaches.

#9 If these are separate buildings you might be over thinking it.

:D
 

cornflake

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Not a firefighter, but in general...

They're not likely to be professionals, in a small, rural-ish area in Oregon. It's likely volunteer.

They'd try to put it out, heh, and attempt to go in, to see if there's anyone in there, if it's feasible. Sometimes those things coincide, sometimes not.

I don't think I understand why the people don't walk over there, or get beckoned.

Contact people in other houses why? If there's a danger to those structures, yes.

Why would the media arrive? Media from where? Again, in a small town in Oregon, is there a media presence? A local paper photogtapher might show up, if it's a notable house, and they have a scanner, or the next day, or... not. If it's close to a city and there's nothing going on, maybe, but like, an unoccupied carriage house isn't news people are likely to travel to.

Why are there no cops besides one who drives by? Weren't they sent out originally?

Totally depends.

A good while.

Are you looking for arson investigations? That's a specialized thing, not a volunteer fire dept. thing.
 

MaeZe

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Yes Cornflake, you are correct, more than a few rural fire departments are indeed volunteers. But as I work with a number of volunteer departments as well as with paid departments, the volunteers are not exactly unskilled and untrained. Skills of both paid and unpaid depend on the departments. But volunteer departments in WA State at least, spend a lot of time on training and drills.

The rest of your post is spot on.

But for a writer, that gives one a lot of leeway.
 
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Norman Mjadwesch

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I have had two such experiences, but please understand that I am not a professional firefighter, and my recollections may not be accurate in every detail. I can’t answer all of your questions but I will pass on what I am able.

The first was as a child in a suburban house (mine, 1979), which was attended by professionals; the second was as a volunteer first responder in a rural setting (arson, 1988). I would assume that most protocols for professional firefighters would not have changed too much since then, other than the availability and increased efficiency of some protective gear and other equipment. OTOH, the voluntary services had no training in 1988, but that has since been addressed and now everyone has training. In the 1980s, it was not unusual for all of the neighbourhood kids to carry portable backpacks so that the adults could concentrate on using the pumps, though minors are no longer permitted to go anywhere near any kind of emergency. OH&S: different times, I guess.

In neither case was there any media involvement, though as cornflake has already noted, some reporters have access to scanners. Whoever arrives at a fire first has as much to do with how far they have to travel as it does with who receives the first notification.

In the first scenario the house was evacuated before the fire brigade arrived, although some adults (parents / neighbours) went into the building to locate and recover pets (dogs were rescued, the fish all died) and the neighbour had the presence of mind to turn off the power at the meter box (priority). There were no police on site until the fire had already been contained, with damage being limited to one room, plus smoke damage to the entire house. It reeked for weeks, and the smell lingered until the inside was eventually repainted.

The second fire was the result of a gas explosion, which my father and I both heard from a mile away. We originally thought that someone was using dynamite illegally, until we saw the column of smoke. It was a deliberate act by the house’s elderly owner, who for whatever reason had decided to kill himself, though none of this was known to us until later. His wife told police that he had splashed petrol all over the place after opening the gas line, then told her to leave (she fled to the next house down the road, about half a mile).

The house was already completely destroyed when we arrived on the scene, with all of the walls blown out and the roof collapsed. There was no way to determine if there were survivors (these were family friends of ours and we assumed both were dead, but did everything we could in case they were still alive). As first responders (volunteers with zero formal training, equipped with a small-capacity tanker), we did not take proper precautions and decided to try to contain the fire until other units could respond. We made serious errors of judgement: we did not have any way to shut down the electricity or to check the gas cylinders, but continued regardless. I don’t know who, if anyone, later turned off the electricity. The external gas cylinders didn’t explode. I suppose we were just lucky.

There was urgency but no fear; we were focused on saving who we were able to save. We concentrated our efforts on the fiercest flames, which of course was the location where the accelerant had been poured on the floor and walls. Because this was the room where the body was recovered, the body was not completely destroyed, as seems to have been the likely intention of the suicide. Though we had only limited water on our tanker, other units arrived within minutes and the fire was contained within maybe half an hour of the initial blast (11am), but it took several hours until the last of it was extinguished and the wreckage of the house could be sifted.

The police called in forensic experts to determine the source and course of the fire, which was explained to those of us who were still hanging around (a truly fascinating tutorial, each blistered piece of wood telling its tale). Other police took statements while all of this was underway, and the recovery of the body was not concealed from anyone in attendance. In hindsight, I find it really bizarre that everyone was pretty informal with everything that happened that day, especially since there were several teenagers amongst the volunteers. Even the ambulance crew were talkative, especially when they realised that the body was in no condition to be transported in their vehicle (an undertaker was called in, partly because the spreadeagled arms were locked in place and needed an ‘adjustment’ before the body could be loaded aboard).

I was 19 at the time, but never suffered any ill effects from the experience. As a first responder, I was told that I could expect to make a statement before a coronial inquiry and that I should make notes as soon as I went home so that I would remember every detail, but that was the end of the incident. I never received a summons. Fifteen years later I volunteered in a different town’s brigade, but by then everything was completely different and the correct procedures were drilled into us before we were allowed to attend even small planned burns.
 
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jclarkdawe

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I was a captain on a rural volunteer fire department. Yes, I was a professional, and have a crap load of certifications, but I wasn't paid. In this day, most volunteers are certified fire.

Sat Nam! (literally "Truth Name"--a Sikh greeting)

Okay, here's the scenario:

Basics: Small town in suburban Western Oregon, close to a fictional county seat. So we'll assume a volunteer department with a rather wide area needed to get the equipment and personnel needed. Large Victorian house/mansion on about 6 acres. How many stories? Carriage house is on the opposite side of the carriage drive and perhaps 50 feet down the carriage drive from it. That's a lot closer than I would expect, but there is a definite risk of the fire spreading to the other structure depending upon wind and fire volume (heat). It's the main place of business for the owners of the mansion and their friend, the mc. Abandoned pasture/berry patch on the other side of the carriage house. Is this brush fire season? Is the brush green or dry? What are the risks of a substantial brush fire? The house fronts on one street, but most traffic and most cars come in by way of the back street. Any competent fire fighter knows all the roads in his or her district. Pre-plannning is a constant in the fire service. Any structure like this is going to be planned out for years. The back street has several houses fronting it opposite the carriage & mansion, a minimum of fifty feet away, and much more in most cases. Again, what is the fire load and wind like? That determines how much of a risk of the fire spreading the fire department should have.

Not mentioned is water supply. I would assume no hydrants, so I would need to set up a tanker operation. So how far away are the water sources and how large are they? Can I go through water without worrying about it, or do I have to balance my attack with water supply concerns?

Mutual aid also needs to be addressed. A full box for a rural service would be something like two engines, two tankers, a ladder and a rescue. From the sounds of this fire, I would be at a third or fourth alarm, and wanting about six engines, ten tankers, one or two ladders, and two rescues, or about 70 people. Depending upon water supply and risk of brush fire, I might go heavier on the tankers and want a few forestry trucks.


Arsons set fire (using gasoline) to the carriage house in the late evening after most of the people in the mansion are in bed. One of those people, whose bedroom faces the carriage house, notices the fire, calls 911, and notifies everyone else. They are getting out of the house as the firetruck arrives. They will be leaving out the front door, but the firetruck(s) will arrive on the back street. Any firefighters trying to get to the mansion will have to go around the block or past the fire to get there. By the time the truck arrives, the carriage house will be beyond redemption. So here's where pre-planning comes in. First truck on scene goes to one side of the building. Second truck in goes to the other side. Third truck in establishes water supply. By that point, command is in operation and will be assigning locations to the trucks as they arrive. Nothing here is terribly exciting or complicating to a fire fighter.

An off-duty police officer will drive by (his house is on the other side of the mansion and down the road a few blocks) perhaps some twenty minutes or so after the truck arrives. He will offer assistance. Command will be calling for police a lot sooner than 20 minutes in. Roads need to be blocked, a perimeter needs to be set up, and the scene needs to be secured.

Questions:

1. What are the firefighters going to do first? First truck in starts assessing the situation as the truck approaches. I've called multiple alarms from over a mile out. I will tell the fire fighters what size line I want to use. Once the truck stops, the driver will get the pump in operation. The crew (two people) will be pulling lines, getting their SCBA's ready, and waiting for the word on what is going to happen. The officer walks around the building, assessing the sides (A, B, C, D) and radioing dispatch as to what are the conditions (fully involved, fire showing on sides A, B, C, D, structure three story 50 x 125, exterior attack) (guess as to the approximate situation based upon your scenario), talks with witnesses as to whether everybody is out, and establishes command. Determines location of ladder truck.

2. How are they going to contact the residents of the mansion who are standing on the other side of the mansion's front street? As you walk around the building, you find the people. Usually they come up to you.

3. Are they going to contact the people in the houses on the other side of the street from the carriage house? If I need to evacuate them, I'm hopefully going to have police to do the work. Otherwise it waits until I get enough fire fighters. As an incident commander at an active fire, you have the authority to call in any and all resources that you need. For example, I could call for state police support if the locals don't have enough officers. I can call in the national guard for additional personnel. I can call for specialized equipment. My dispatcher is tasked with making this stuff happen. I've never had to worry about resources. The only concern is the travel time. I've responded in tankers where it took us an hour to get to the scene or longer.

But you need to understand that we start planning for things even before the need arises. I'm about six hours away from New York City. When 9/11 happened, we began planning what equipment and personnel to NYC. We didn't know what they would need immediately, but we started planning for what might be needed. In the end, the local hospital sent significant resources of personnel, as did all hospitals.

4. When the residents be allowed back in? (the mansion doesn't catch fire) When it is safe.

5. When will media arrive? Hopefully never. Depends upon how good a story this is.

6. What tasks will the police officer be set? There will be an on-duty officer who I assume will be redirecting traffic. Traffic control, controlling access, notifying people that need to be evacuated. I'm going to want more than one cop for a major structure fire.

7. How long will it take to get the fire out? (Yes, I know, it depends, but...) Several hours before the last crew leaves. Probably about two to three hours when I start releasing crews.

8. How long will the smell last? Days. Depends upon how much rain you get.

9. Anything obvious I need to know?

Thanks for any and all help.

Blessings,

Siri Kirpal

Jim Clark-Dawe
 

cornflake

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I didn't mean to imply volunteer firefighters were totally untrained or unskilled. Firefighters have to be trained wherever -- not to the level of a large department that has $$ for a lengthy training program, but they have skills.

Arson investigation is a science unto itself. It's not a thing regular firefighters -- or fire investigators, who can be those who don't fight fires but inspect the aftermath -- who have not had a LOT of specialized training should be doing.
 

Chris P

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Just a couple layperson questions I would consider:

Is there a hydrant nearby, or are they going to relay on a pumper truck?

What's the weather been like? If dry, I suspect the firefighters would be concerned that sparks could start fires elsewhere, particularly if it's windy.
 

WeaselFire

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Jim nailed it, especially with the water source. First concern is people, second is structure. They'd need to know everyone is out of the carriage house as well as the main house. If the building is engulfed, you don't want to be heading in to search for potential victims.

That close, firefighters would almost certainly set up a water curtain, basically a hose with a wide spread spraying in between and on the main structure to knock down embers or anything that might set off other structures. This uses a lot of water so sources of water determine this. Definitely multiple alarms, you likely need the tankers bringing water. A lot of the tactics used depend on manpower available and equipment available. My local volunteers have a single truck manned by two firefighters and a driver. They have on-call guys available that might be able to respond, usually can get a dozen to the scene pretty quickly. These guys will always get there first, but it's hard for them to work anything larger than a bonfire with the men and equipment available. Their backup is 20-30 minutes away at best, so they basically just try to keep fire from expanding uncontrollably and work to get people out. Water sources are ponds, no hydrants out here, and they can hook up portable pumps but those aren't really adequate for large scale firefighting. These volunteers are certified and twice as good as the paid guys that respond, better training and more experience. The current captain is a retired captain from Boston with thirty years behind him.

These guys are extremely good at pulling people out of mobile homes and extinguishing kitchen fires which, mercifully, is the majority of our fires around here. Arsonists are really rare in our neck of the woods and fall more into the angry ex-girlfriend type of arson.

Jeff
 

Siri Kirpal

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Sat Nam! (Literally "Truth Name"--a Sikh greeting)

I'll go back and read your answers carefully, but I'm going to address the obvious things first. This is not a rural town (sorry that's not clearer), it's a former Victorian lumber boomtown and is now a tourist attraction, besides being a bedroom community for the county seat. So yes, there's a small professional fire crew...or the county seat is so close that they can use that much larger crew. Fire hydrant on corner across the street, no need to bring in water. Main house (which will not burn, but they're concerned it might) is two stories, plus lived in attic and basement. Carriage house, two stories. No way they can get safely into the carriage house by the time they get there.

House and grounds are on one largish block. The house faces one street, but the carriage house is closer to the street behind it. The other nearby houses are on that street. When I said "back street" I did not mean alley. Sorry for confusion about that too.

Critically important to story that media arrive. That's how the stalker is going to find my mc. But it doesn't have to be during the fire itself. The mansion is one of the town's selling points, so yes, media will want to be there.

We're at the very beginning of fall, which is fire season here in the West. Fortunately, no wind to speak of, and although the fire decimates the building quickly (it's a century plus old wood structure), it's near lots of berry brambles, which aren't going to burn without a fight, so the fire hasn't spread all that much by the time the fire crew arrives.

The arsons are high school kids and this is a hate crime.

Okay, now to go back and read your answers carefully.

Blessings,

Siri Kirpal
 

jclarkdawe

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I didn't mean to imply volunteer firefighters were totally untrained or unskilled. Firefighters have to be trained wherever -- not to the level of a large department that has $$ for a lengthy training program, but they have skills.

It's a lot more complicated than you think. Firefighters are certified to different levels. Beginning firefighter is certified at Level I. Most volunteers will stay at that level. Paid firefighters will go on for higher certifications. And paid firefighters will probably have a greater experience level.

But understand that where you work makes as much of a difference. I'm certified in farm rescue. You go into a silo rescue or a tractor rescue without specialized knowledge and you're going to have problems. I doubt too many firefighters in Boston have that certification. But I have no experience or certifications in urban search and rescue or high rise firefighting.

It's funny watching an urban fire service trying to draft water. It's almost as funny as watching me deal with a hydrant. But our experiences are different and that can make a lot of different.


Arson investigation is a science unto itself. It's not a thing regular firefighters -- or fire investigators, who can be those who don't fight fires but inspect the aftermath -- who have not had a LOT of specialized training should be doing.

Both start with the fire triangle. Any time a firefighter arrives at a fire, we want to know how it started. That can influence how we fight the fire. So the incident commander is going to start an investigation. This determines whether a fire marshal is called in. From there, yes, arson investigation becomes specialized. But all fire officers know the basics.

Jim Clark-Dawe
 

Siri Kirpal

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Sat Nam! (literally "Truth Name"--a Sikh greeting)

Okay, I've done a quick, but thorough reading. (I'll probably read this all a couple more times.) It looks like most of my questions got answered...enough to be going on with. Thanks, guys!

The police on duty did arrive within minutes of the firefighters, and yes, he's doing traffic control. The police officer who arrives 20 minutes into it is off-duty and driving back from a visit to a different county. But I can see what he'd likely be asked to do.

Thanks, again!

Blessings,

Siri Kirpal
 

jclarkdawe

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This means more engines and less tankers. Probably one less alarm. Maybe another ladder. With that type of response time for the initial engine, and arriving at a fully involved structure, I'm going to be wondering between arson and gas.

Understand "hydrants" are not created equal. A hydrant fed by a six-inch main is very different than a hydrant fed from a 24-inch main. Six-inch main and I'd probably want a secondary water source.

Then there's the question of the water supply for the hydrant system. If the water supply is wells, fed to a water tank for storage, you've got a difference over a water supply from a large lake. I'm going to need thousands of gallons of water to change BTUs from fire. Basically I'm going to be cooling the fire down (that's what water does) and that heat exchange uses a lot of water. One can actually calculate this, but usually it's an eyeball calculation done by the incident commander.

Fire service does not control the media. The media is controlled by how many stories are going on. On a slow news day, any fire can attract the media. If all hell is breaking loose, a major structure fire might not be reported on.

Jim Clark-Dawe
 

Siri Kirpal

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Sat Nam! (literally "Truth Name"--a Sikh greeting)

Thanks, Jim! That does suggest one tanker and two engines, with the tanker coming up the carriage drive from the front street, which has no nearby hydrants. Probably just the one ladder. The fire crew probably serves nearby rural areas, so they'd have at least one tanker.

I figured firefighters don't call the media, but I was thinking you might know something about timing. Sounds like "depends" is the answer, which is okay.

And yes, the arson is caused by heavy use of gasoline Am I correct that a good firefighter could tell by the smell? Also, the mc saw the two kids run off and suspects arson. So I'm planning on having her tell someone in the fire crew.

Again, thanks.

Blessings,

Siri Kirpal
 

MaeZe

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Jim Clark-Dawe

For the record, Jim, those laws vary by state. Best to pick a state and look up the law. On the west coast fire fighters respond to medical calls but it's my understanding that in some states back east the two functions are independent of each other.
 
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cornflake

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Sat Nam! (literally "Truth Name"--a Sikh greeting)

Thanks, Jim! That does suggest one tanker and two engines, with the tanker coming up the carriage drive from the front street, which has no nearby hydrants. Probably just the one ladder. The fire crew probably serves nearby rural areas, so they'd have at least one tanker.

I figured firefighters don't call the media, but I was thinking you might know something about timing. Sounds like "depends" is the answer, which is okay.

And yes, the arson is caused by heavy use of gasoline Am I correct that a good firefighter could tell by the smell?
Also, the mc saw the two kids run off and suspects arson. So I'm planning on having her tell someone in the fire crew.

Again, thanks.

Blessings,

Siri Kirpal

No, sorry. I mean you might be able to smell gasoline, though I'm not sure how well or much at all if the whole carriage house is burning, but even if they could smell gas, that wouldn't mean anyone would think it was arson. People keep gas on their property for a lot of reasons -- generators, lawn tools, snow machines, etc., etc., yada even just for storms, in case the power goes out and the gas stations can't pump. The presence of gas at a fire just means... there was gas someplace. It's a correlation not causation thing.
 

cornflake

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For the record, Jim, those laws vary by state. Best to pick a state and look up the law. On the west coast fire fighters respond to medical calls but it's my understanding that in some states back east the two functions are independent of each other.

What they do in general would vary according to a lot of things, I agree.

I know a NYC firefighter -- he told me once that someone called the house to say a cat was stuck in a tree. Another firefighter who'd answered the call said sorry, they don't do that, you have to call Animal Control or the ASPCA cops. The guy I know acknowledged that's the procedure, but said to ask where the tree was. He said he'd been a firefighter more than a decade, and it'd never happened, and this was probably his once chance to be a cliche, so they were going -- he took one of the trucks and a crew and got the cat, heh.

There are, as I understand it, places the fire brigade does respond to those calls routinely, and are supposed to.
 
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jclarkdawe

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I'm sorry if I was confusing, although it becomes very complicated.

Certification is done on a statewide basis, based upon national guidelines. Firefighter 1 or EMT basic will be roughly the same from state to state, but not exactly. For instance, one state might require a firefighter to get into gear in less than three minutes (bunker pants, boots, jacket, hood, SCBA, helmet, and gloves) while another state might require a firefighter to get into an SCBA in less than one minute (SCBA, helmet, gloves) and let him have the bunker gear on before the test starts. The end result is virtually identical.

EMTs and firefighters are entirely different certifications. A firefighter may be an EMT, or not. Each group has a variety of certifications that apply in that field. For instance, a paramedic is an EMT with advanced, specific training. A paramedic might not be a firefighter. An urban search and rescue specialist will be a firefighter with advanced training, which may include the requirement to have an EMT certification. Again, each state does this a bit differently. And departments have different hiring requirements.

You have three components to emergency services -- fire, medical, and police. Each has very different certification programs, although there is some overlap. For example, vehicle extrication is covered in the basic courses for all three. But most of the skills are specialized, although I know many people who are certified in all three. Each town/county/district establishes how they want to set this up. You can have police officers who provide medical, more common is firefighting and medical combined, but you can do this all separately.

Manchester, NH uses an independent ambulance service and you may not get a paramedic on an engine. Manchester fire responds to most, if not all medical calls, and will provide support services to the ambulance crew.

Meanwhile, Concord, NH has the fire and medical in the same department. All medical calls get an engine and an ambulance. Each ambulance has a paramedic. The reason for the engine is if additional personnel are needed. For example, a CPR call requires three or four in the back of the ambulance, a driver for the ambulance, and a driver for the engine.

Much of this is a result of the funding fights that went on in the 1970s and 80s.

Each fire department and medical department sets its own protocols and policies. Medical is set up through the local hospital. NARCAN was adopted by EMTs in New Hampshire as the hospitals approved the protocols for their EMTs to do the work. (All practicing EMTs practice under a doctor's supervision, although they may never actually see the doctor.)

Some fire departments will rescue cats, others do not. Others will do it if it's a slow day. I once had the cemetery call up to see if the fire department would pump a grave. Without bothering the Chief, I told them no. (Too much mud going into our pumps.)

Local practices are nice to find out. Notice that if you do a story involving an ambulance call set in Manchester, NH you have to set it up differently than if your story is set in Concord, NH. Twenty miles apart and a very different approach. One of the neighboring towns has an fire/medical and an independent rescue. (Long story on why this happened.)

As far as I know, no state sets a law deciding how to organize your departments.

Some people say they can smell gas. Most are not able to do so. If all of the gas has burned off, the odor left will be pretty much gone. But as Cornflake points out, many people store gasoline in their garages/basement.

I would be thinking arson more based upon the fire's spread. Fire spreads in a very finite way. So a wooden structure with multiple rooms will require a certain amount of time. If the windows are open, the fire will spread from the initial source of ignition in a certain pattern, spreading from room to room. Interior doors open or shut will contribute to how the fire spreads. But it's going to take a while for a wooden structure to spread from room to room.

Now if the windows are closed, the heat will be retained inside the building, gradually building. Eventually the air at the top of the rooms will become super-heated and cause a flash over. This will probably blow out most if not all of the windows. You will have a structure that from the exterior goes from some smoke rising from various openings, to a fully involved structure fire in seconds.

With a gas arson fire, you get a rapid burn without a lot of heat and less explosive force than a flash over. Result is the windows might not blow out. But with the rapid burn of the gas vapors, you need a secondary source to maintain the fire. Understand that many household items no longer burn very well. In real life, many gas arson fires will see a large amount of scorching, but a fire that goes out in a few minutes. It's not unknown for the fire department to arrive and find nothing burning.

But using gas to start a fire, spread through most if not all of the rooms, can result in the type of fire the OP is suggesting. Other two scenarios are a flash over, or a natural or propane gas explosion that ignited before it reached the volume of gas necessary for the destruction of the building by explosion. A flash over is not as likely in an occupied structure, as the heat will be noticeable way before the flash over occurred. But if I suspect arson might be a possibility, I'll be requesting an arson investigator when I get a chance.

Jim Clark-Dawe
 

Siri Kirpal

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Okay, thanks all. Every city in Oregon that I know about has fire meds. They go in a boxy red vehicle separate from the engines. They won't be needed this time around, because no one was in the building.

Windows would definitely be closed. Good point about keeping gas etc. inside buildings, because there is a tool shed attached to this, which would have gas for the mower.

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MaeZe

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That makes more sense Jim, and it's interesting what they do in your state.

Here in King County, (WA) fire engine and aid units are dispatched first. The firefighters on the engines are all EMTs and equipped to do what the aid units can do except transport. And the EMTs on the aid units are also all firefighters. The idea is they arrive first and call for a medic unit with the paramedics if advanced life support is needed. If the call is more serious from the beginning, dispatch can send the medics right away. That way fewer medics can cover more territory and patients are seen within a few minutes of the call in most cases.

In the volunteer departments I work with they are all encouraged to get EMT certification but in some areas not all the volunteers have their certification when they start. Usually there is a core of paid firefighters in the volunteer departments.

The medics (paramedics) here are fantastic. They do incredible things from inserting IVs into the bone marrow if they can't start an IV in a vein and they are certified to do cricotomies (cut a hole in the airway) if they can't intubate. They're certified here just as EMTs are certified. It simply means a licensed person or agency oversees them. Whereas I have a license and that makes me independent.

I'm going to guess certification and licensure means different things in different states as well.


Sorry for the sidetrack, Siri Kirpal, :gone:
 

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Sat Nam! (literally "Truth Name"--a Sikh greeting)

Okay, thanks all. Every city in Oregon that I know about has fire meds. They go in a boxy red vehicle separate from the engines. They won't be needed this time around, because no one was in the building.

Windows would definitely be closed. Good point about keeping gas etc. inside buildings, because there is a tool shed attached to this, which would have gas for the mower.

Blessings,

Siri Kirpal
The boxy red thing is an aid unit. :tongue

If it doesn't matter for the story it will probably clutter things but but it's common to send everyone out and then send them home if they aren't needed instead of delaying things if they were to be needed.
 

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A license is very different from a certification from the legal prospective. A license is legal authority to perform certain tasks, such as an EMT or doctor or lawyer or plumber. As far as I know, EMTs are licensed in all 50 states, and usually at two or three levels -- EMT basic, EMT intermediate, Paramedic. A basic is allowed to do X, an intermediate is allowed to do X plus Y, and a paramedic is allowed to do X plus Y plus Z. This authorization is issued by the state.

However, all EMTs have to be certified for CPR. The CPR certification is issued by the American Red Cross.

Firefighters are not usually licensed, and depending upon department policy, anyone, even someone with no training, can be put on a hose.

I'm certified in farm rescue, but that doesn't mean that in a farm situation someone without the training can't act. There's no state requirement for that certification. It simply indicates that I met the requirement set forth by someone (I can't remember who) that I've met the training requirements to have certain knowledge about the special conditions of farm rescue.

I used certification here to keep it a bit simpler. When I was licensed as an EMT, I was also certified by a national organization as an EMT. I needed that certification to get my license.

Jim Clark-Dawe
 

MaeZe

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A license is very different from a certification from the legal prospective. A license is legal authority to perform certain tasks, such as an EMT or doctor or lawyer or plumber. As far as I know, EMTs are licensed in all 50 states, and usually at two or three levels -- EMT basic, EMT intermediate, Paramedic. A basic is allowed to do X, an intermediate is allowed to do X plus Y, and a paramedic is allowed to do X plus Y plus Z. This authorization is issued by the state.

However, all EMTs have to be certified for CPR. The CPR certification is issued by the American Red Cross.

Firefighters are not usually licensed, and depending upon department policy, anyone, even someone with no training, can be put on a hose.

I'm certified in farm rescue, but that doesn't mean that in a farm situation someone without the training can't act. There's no state requirement for that certification. It simply indicates that I met the requirement set forth by someone (I can't remember who) that I've met the training requirements to have certain knowledge about the special conditions of farm rescue.

I used certification here to keep it a bit simpler. When I was licensed as an EMT, I was also certified by a national organization as an EMT. I needed that certification to get my license.

Jim Clark-Dawe
It's not the same in this state. That is what I was trying to say, each state has different regulatory laws. Here EMTs and paramedics hold certifications.

You mentioned certified in farm rescue. I'm not familiar with that one but it's similar here, there are certifications for specific tasks as well as for general categories. Certifications here give you the authority to perform things from phlebotomy and injections to EMS medical procedures all under the authority of a licensed health care provider.

EMS Provider Certification

The license the EMTs work under is this:
2. EMS Agency Association Requirement and EMS Supervisor:
To be certified you must be associated with an EMS agency licensed by the Washington State Department of Health. Your EMS agency supervisor must complete this portion of the form.
Note: You cannot sign for yourself as supervisor. Please have your supervisor sign and date the form.


We have certifications in specialties that you are describing for licensed health care personnel. I have 2 licenses and 3 certifications in specialties. For physicians it's generally referred to as "board certified". I'm an NP not an MD.

Sometimes it seems like just another thing fees can be collected for. My DEA license, for example is one of those. And I have to have a CLIA waived license to perform certain lab tests in my clinic. Counting those two I guess I have 4 licenses. Laboratories have to be licensed.
 
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Siri Kirpal

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I don't mind the sidetrack. Gives a broader view of things to keep in mind.

I think you're correct that they send everyone and then send back those who aren't necessary here.

Blessings,

Siri Kirpal