Swearing

pingle

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So, following on from my last post about using authentic words, I've decided I'll only use words that still have modern day relevance and will otherwise translate. (For those that haven't read the last post, the book is set in ancient Rome, so I'll sometimes use latin that is still used today). The latin swearwords I've found so far don't tick that box.

My research suggests the Romans swore a lot, and some of those I'm writing about probably swore more than most. From what I could tell the swear words centred around body parts and sex, surprise surprise, so in my mind a lot of current swearwords cover these bases. But when I did add a fuck, and shared the chapter with a few people the word was questioned. For some reason it felt modern to some, though as far as I know it isn't.

I'm a bit stumped. I feel swearing is needed, but I don't want readers feeling the language is wrong.

Does anyone know any good swear words that sound suitably old?
 

angeliz2k

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Many f words ahead . . .

Well. Fuck is in fact a fairly old word, though it wasn't always as taboo (as I understand it). And, frankly, the word (or it's equivalent) is as old as time because the act is as old as time. However, there are a lot of ways to use that word--like, a lot; it's actually a fascinating word!--so the way you used it might feel modern. I would lean towards using it only to describe the actual act, not, for instance, using it as an intensifier or an interjection ("fucking snakes!" or "fuck, I just banged my thumb").

Also, I'm curious how into historical fiction (and this era) your readers are. Not that their input isn't valuable no matter what, but to evaluate this specific criticism, it's important to know where they're coming from.

The WIPs I've written in which people swear are all quite modern, thankfully. It's kinda fun to swear in "Victorian Southern" and "Edwardian British"!
 

Marissa D

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You can always consider making up your swears/exclamations so that they (a) sound like they could be old and (b) can be used as a bit of character-building. If someone's running around muttering "Jupiter's balls!" all the time when he's annoyed, it says something about him. :)
 

Siri Kirpal

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Sat Nam! (literally "Truth Name")

The F word is very old, but also very Germanic. Marissa's idea of creating age/era appropriate swears would work.

Blessings,

Siri Kirpal
 

AW Admin

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Fuck is indeed very old, and it was already forbidden in the 15th century. The first written extant use of fuck is in the poetry of Scottish Chaucerian, the Middle Scot poet William Dunbar, and he deliberately masked his use with a code.

I'd probably use fuck, personally. It has the same basic register (i.e. tone and level of formality) as the Latin version futuo, and as in English, it's used both in hostility and in affection.
 

benbenberi

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"Fuck" was only used to refer to the actual sexual act through most of its long history. It only became an all-purpose swear in recent times (exactly when is uncertain because writing always lags speech, but probably mid-late 19c).

This means it's probably ok to use it however you want in an ancient-Roman setting, or some other pre-modern non-English-speaking context, as long as the usage fits the context.There's always an implicit translation going on with all the non-English dialog anyway. If your style is such that, were the characters speaking modern English, they'd be saying "fuck the fucking fucker, you fucking fuck!", that's what they can say in ancient wherever. If your dialog is written in a more formal style, of course fuck won't do. And if you're writing a Tudor, or Regency, or some other English-speaking historical, universal fuck is an obvious anachronism.
 
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angeliz2k

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"Fuck" was only used to refer to the actual sexual act through most of its long history. It only became an all-purpose swear in recent times (exactly when is uncertain because writing always lags speech, but probably mid-late 19c).

This means it's probably ok to use it however you want in an ancient-Roman setting, or some other pre-modern non-English-speaking context, as long as the usage fits the context.There's always an implicit translation going on with all the non-English dialog anyway. If your style is such that, were the characters speaking modern English, they'd be saying "fuck the fucking fucker, you fucking fuck!", that's what they can say in ancient wherever. If your dialog is written in a more formal style, of course fuck won't do. And if you're writing a Tudor, or Regency, or some other English-speaking historical, universal fuck is an obvious anachronism.

Agreed--there's the "translation" factor. There are also reader expectations. Even if, really, it makes perfect sense to use "fuck" in the modern way, if your target audience doesn't feel it's hitting the right tone, then . . . it isn't hitting the right tone.

One of the reasons I was delighted to write in the Edwardian era is the liberal usage of the f word. I recall one anecdote from a soldier who said that you knew your commanding officer was serious when he said "get your gun" and not "get your fucking gun" (paraphrasing a bit). And I know George Llewelyn Davies, just after he joined the British Army in 1914, told his brother, "We're deep in it now, fuck if we aren't." But of course, that's neither here nor there, in relation to ancient Rome.

In re the series Rome, I did enjoy the creative cursing! It was funny, fit the situation and the characters, and actually made sense for ancient Romans (swearing by various gods' or goddesses' body parts, for instance).
 

pingle

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Thank you for all the brilliant answers! I've been told to watch Rome before and now think I really need to try to find it. I've also heard of that swearing book, I think an article about it might have come up when researching, so good to hear a recommendation for it. I don't have a particularly 'funny' voice so as much as I love the sound of Jupiter's balls :ROFL: and similar I wonder if it would work, but no reason why I can't give it a go and see what readers think.
 

ironmikezero

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This may be a bit of a tangent, but some of the most colorful and creative swearing/cursing I've ever found proliferated during the Golden Age of Piracy. While researching for a particular work I found THE PIRATE PRIMER by George Choundas, in my local library. Scanning a number of pages, I couldn't stop chuckling aloud--I had to secure my own copy. It's an absolute joy to peruse just for fun, and a very comprehensive period-language research tool.

https://www.writersdigest.com/qp7-migration-books/the-pirate-primer
 

CWatts

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Thank you for all the brilliant answers! I've been told to watch Rome before and now think I really need to try to find it. I've also heard of that swearing book, I think an article about it might have come up when researching, so good to hear a recommendation for it. I don't have a particularly 'funny' voice so as much as I love the sound of Jupiter's balls :ROFL: and similar I wonder if it would work, but no reason why I can't give it a go and see what readers think.

I found that quote page because I remember them saying "Jupiter's cock!" but I can't find the reference. I don wonder if it makes a difference that most of the cast is British - The Queen's Latin trope and all.

The show also demonstrates how utterly nonchalant they were about nudity, sex and violence. At one point Pullo and Vorenus (one of the best bromances ever btw) are just walkin' around carrying a severed head and folks hardly blink.
 
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stephenf

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Derek Jarman 's film Sabastine was in Latin. Possibly making it more authentic, but it was not very popular. I believe you have no choice but to use modern-day language to get the reaction your looking for. That was the approach in the TV series Rome. There is a constant shift in sensitivities. Old London place names reflect the day to day activities to be found there. Gropecunt Lane was common but has now been edited out of history.
 
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frimble3

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IIRC, the Angevin and early Plantagenet kings were fond of oaths like "God's teeth" and "God's eyes", so I don't see why Jupiter's anatomy isn't fair game as well. ;) Or any other Roman deity, for that matter.

Might be a useful way to show something about characters? The blacksmith swearing by Vulcan's forge, the lover who swears by bits of Venus?
 

pingle

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I'm going to have an editing day today so will see what creative swearing I can come up with. Thanks again for all the replies, very helpful, and the general sense I get is that there isn't a right way, so at least I won't be wrong, but I do need it to sound natural to the reader, which maybe means more swearing :Shrug: