How many beta readers do you need?

Three, but it's taken me some time to get there. A lot of people have a problem with their first book--it's so flawed that betas keep finding stuff of substance to fix, but by the time the line edits are done, the voice is erased. (I see this sometimes in QLH, too.) It happened to me on my first novel.

Anyway, three good beta friends, run through the book individually (so each beta gets a newly edited draft) will get my story to the point that I'm proud of it.

You're not sending it to 3 simultaneously (i.e. without revision), right? As far as a number, just like everything else writerly, it depends on you and your situation. For one of my current books, I'm on full beta number 10 (over a 7 year period). It was my first, so had a loooong way to go when I started. After each solid read, I revise extensively. I'm going to keep the beta-cycle up until I get a story that the beta comes back and says, "I couldn't put it down. Some clean-up and this will be fantastic." Then, once polished, I'll send it to one of my solid-gold best readers and beg for a re-read to see if I'm really there. My thinking is that if I can't wow my beta readers, I'll never stand out for an agent. It's a journey that's been great for me since I have a tendency to say, "That's good enough. Let's just see what happens." But that's a short road to mediocrity.
It's been fulfilling to watch the reads go from, "I see what you're going for, but it needs a lot of work," to "I really enjoyed this." I'll either get that final step completed or die trying. As a side benefit, many of the reads have been swaps and I discovered I love reading for other people, too. I've read a couple I check back on occasionally to see if they're out there yet (because they will be!). Reading is a ton of work, but enjoyable.
If you're an experienced writer, I think you could get away with 2 or 3. But for us clueless rubes, it may take several.

Also, when I say "beta" I mean somebody who isn't a family member or friend. They don't count. A beta is somebody who cares only about the story, not the author. Just to clarify.

There are a lot of different ways to approach this, but for me, I find the ideal number is six to eight. Unlike the other posters, I prefer simultaneous reads. (Note: unlike E.Murray, I do include some family members and friends in this group: the ones who are excellent writers themselves, who read in my genre, and who I know will be brutally honest with me.)

Why?

Well, first off, you'll get a lot of different opinions thrown at you. Some of them will be easy to make a decision on: you'll see someone's comment and think, "OH! Why didn't I see that?!" and immediately scuttle off to fix it. But for other things, you may think, "Hmm, Billy Joe Bob says my pacing on this chapter is slow. But I don't think it is. Is that my author bias? Or BJB's 3.5-second attention span?" Or maybe Delilah tells you she got totally confused about what was happening in the car chase scene. Is it unclear? Or does D always struggle with visualizing city street layouts?

If I have six readers and one of them gets confused on a point, but it seems very clear to me and to all my other readers, I might ignore that note. If three or four of them are confused, it doesn't matter how clear I thought I was being; that section is getting rewritten.

I also find that multiple readers seeing the same draft helps me to pinpoint the most glaring problems in my manuscript. Which is useful, because if I'm going to make major changes, I want to make sure to hit the most important issues first, before I tidy up the minor ones.

Also, as Neil Gaiman said, "Remember: when people tell you something’s wrong or doesn’t work for them, they are almost always right. When they tell you exactly what they think is wrong and how to fix it, they are almost always wrong." For me, seeing feedback from different people on the same draft is often a good reminder of this. Three people may tell me a chapter's not working for three different reasons, and two of them may propose very different solutions. Seeing a variety of takes on a single problem can be helpful to me; I'm pretty sure there's been at least one case where the real problem/solution wasn't something anyone articulated--but because I had a variety of comments around one section, I was able to take a closer look and ask myself, "Okay, so why is this causing different problems for different people?" And work out the solution from there.

If I've made a lot of changes to a manuscript after beta feedback, I may run it by a second round of readers--actually, I'm in the process of doing that now--just to make sure I didn't create new problems when solving old ones. But that's a much less intense process, and the revisions from that one (at least in this case) are relatively minor.

I have one or two beta readers, usually, and they are my friends. If not friends, who would be willing to do this work?

I like at least five. Contradictory feedback is inevitable, so you need a range to work out what's likely to be a problem for most readers and what's just a turn off for a particular person (as starsknight pointed out, much more eloquently).

I had to kiss an awful lot of frogs to find five princes(ses) who are reliable, perceptive, and give helpful feedback, but it was so worth it. I have five critique partners now - relationships where we read pretty much everything the other writes, as well as helping with brainstorming and cheerleading and a bit of occasional therapy - and this feels a good number. I'm not actively looking, but I would add another one or two if the opportunity came along. I think more than seven would be unmanageable, especially as a few of my CPs are very prolific.

I think once you become more confident in writing and knowing your market, you might only need one or two close friends to read the manuscript and make sure you haven't gone insane. I'm working on my fifth novel-length manuscript and I'm not there yet.

I sent my first finished MS to six people. Got some lovely comments. Almost nothing useful, though.

It's actually quite hard to find readers who have the time, inclination, and skills to give you a substantive critique. It can take a lot of trial and error to find compatible people.

It's also important to remember that they don't have to write in your genre - or even be writers at all - to be effective betas. What you want is someone who sees (more or less) what you're trying to do with the piece, and can point out where you're not doing what you think you're doing.

Right now I have two regular beta readers whose feedback I've learned to trust. I'll occasionally find another person to read a piece, which often has good results as well, but I have two I always ask first.

I have none. I have no idea how to find any. I mean, I'm sure I could randomly do swaps through the internet with people also desperate for a beta reader, but who's to say we will be well suited to each other?

My sister and a friend will read my work and say lovely things, but they don't know how to critique.

pingle said:

I have none. I have no idea how to find any. I mean, I'm sure I could randomly do swaps through the internet with people also desperate for a beta reader, but who's to say we will be well suited to each other?

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One of my beta readers I found on the NaNoWriMo forum, when we read each other's stuff on the "post your first 1000 words" thread. The other I found here at AW, when they helped me with my query letter.

They're not the only people who've critted fragments or helped me with queries. In a way it was random chance that they also turned out to be excellent betas.

TL;DR: I think you do kinda have to approach random strangers. Most of them probably won't work out, at least long-term, but you really don't know where you'll land someone who's a good fit.

Did you swap a few chapters first? I think it's the thought of committing to a whole book that scares me with swaps. What if we both really don't get on with each other's work, or worse, what if only one of us is hating it, argh. I would struggle to back out but you've got to enjoy what you're reading, right?

pingle said:

Did you swap a few chapters first? I think it's the thought of committing to a whole book that scares me with swaps. What if we both really don't get on with each other's work, or worse, what if only one of us is hating it, argh. I would struggle to back out but you've got to enjoy what you're reading, right?

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Honestly? I don't remember! Certainly with my NaNo buddy I had a sense of what they wrote and vice-versa. I expect we did trade chunks before leaping to longer works.

I frequently see people advised to trade a few chapters before committing to a longer read. I certainly don't think it'd be offensive to set it up that way. Taste is subjective, and you don't want to find yourself critting a book you dislike that you know may be well written but just isn't your Thing.

For me, I aim for at least 3 full beta reads for each major revision, and more like 8 or more for the first 50 pages. Tastes are so varied and feedback can be too inconsistent for me to feel comfortable with just one or two. I'm looking for patterns, as well as what jumps out as really solid advice.


I stick to strangers or "writing friends" (who I really only know from writing sites) for beta reads. I do really value those who are excellent, thorough beta readers, and some have become CPs, but I also get something out of every beta read. For example, one reader didn't say a whole lot, but really wanted follow-up on a couple minor characters (who I guess I was seeing as minor enough that I didn't need to), and that one thing could have a big impact on reader satisfaction.

I've found beta readers here on AW - in the beta forum and the beta project, and in Twitter events. Some from here have become CPs.

Pingle, swapping a few chapters first can be a great idea. I've done this sometimes. It definitely helped me get out of one exchange I wasn't comfortable with, and it's also been good for seeing that chapters are holding interest (when a beta keeps wanting the next batch).

ETA: If you go under "edit signature" you can put a note that you're seeking beta readers (and describe your project). I've gotten several this way in the past. If you're active in the forums, it will be seen.

pingle said:

Did you swap a few chapters first? I think it's the thought of committing to a whole book that scares me with swaps. What if we both really don't get on with each other's work, or worse, what if only one of us is hating it, argh. I would struggle to back out but you've got to enjoy what you're reading, right?

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If it's a swap, I like to do a chapter or two first. The way I handle it, typically, is that my reading of theirs is independent of their reading of mine. If I'm interested in their work and think I can be useful, I'll continue the read, regardless of whether they continue with mine. Also, I try to make clear up front the "rules."
Rule 1 is honesty. If my work isn't up to par, do not try to find good things to say. When I was new at this a decade ago, my first reader wanted to encourage me rather than beat me up (when I needed a good smack). So I spent a year making minor tweaks to a story that needed to go on the trash heap and wasted the time of a couple of good readers because I couldn't get past the idea that it was "pretty close to good" when it wasn't. That, incidentally, is why I don't take seriously the crits of people I know. They're just too nice. I would love it if I had a friend who could give an honest critique. I just don't at the moment. If you have good friends who can help, I am truly jealous. Care to lend them?
Rule 2 is that if I run out of interest in their story, I'll stop and they get to do the same thing with me. If I bomb out, I'll give a couple pages of write-up just like if I had finished the book, but if I'm not doing anything useful (either because I'm not the right reader or the story just needs too much work), I'll drop out. And they are free to do that with mine. I've had both scenarios happen multiple times and it's perfectly ok.

Pingle--Definitely swap a few chapters first, because even awesome writers and readers can be on an entirely different wavelengths from one another--and some might try to take your story somewhere it shouldn't go, in good faith, and with good intentions.

Also, look into local critique groups--Perhaps you can find some in your area. Through local critique groups I've met some people to swap with. The feedback ranges from "This is great!" to "This is awful!" --even with non-friends and non-family. It makes perfect sense that we all respond differently to words.

But also--instead of beta readers--reading novels in our genres (and out of it)--this can be like getting beta feedback. I saw advice somewhere to try to mimic authors we enjoy, as an exercise in understanding our own writing. Learning to spot the differences between how we write and how the authors we enjoy, write. So one day, for example, I wrote a paragraph that followed the pattern of a published author I enjoyed.

It was eye-opening to say the least. "Oh--My favorite author always describes an external detail and an internal response when introducing a character! It never occurred to me to do that, but now I see why it gets me into the scene!" That's the sort of feeling this exercise can bring about, and learning it in this way can be more effective than having a beta reader say: "I'm not feeling immersed."

If the goal is to get another perspective on our work, sometimes we can find some of that different perspective for ourselves by looking to 'leaders' -- reading -- authors from whom we can learn (not copy).

p.s. Not trying to derail the thread... Back to beta readers... I've had about six and two remained in contact but provided no helpful feedback whatsoever (Looks great!), one was way off base with what the book was even about, and a couple were very helpful. Several people who offered to beta got my chapters and never got back to me with anything at all--like they fell off the face of the earth. So that happens too.

Thank you for the wise words and sorry for the thread hijack!

Patty, I do read loads and totally agree that's it's incredibly helpful. In fact my reading is one of the things that makes getting a beta reader a daunting prospect, it takes up all my free time (of which there is not much, like all of us I'm sure) and the thought of reading stuff I'm not into instead of getting through my huge to-read list makes me panic. BUT I'm sure a beta reader is invaluable really, so when the WIP is done I'll certainly try to get some.

(I do swap chapters in a writing group now which is great, but what I struggle with is not knowing whether the book as a whole works)

Will slink away now, sorry again for the hijack!

I have two; my wife and a professional novelist friend. My wife is by far the scariest!

Three is probably a very good number! So far I've only found one who actually goes through with it and reads and all of that.

This issue is a sticking point for me and has me very concerned.

The number of people involved reading my entire novel:5

I hired one woman who is a writing teacher and a published mystery novelist to review my novel twice. She was a tough critic and made useful commentary, but was careless, not catching big mistakes I myself found later. I then found another woman who is also a writing teacher and published mystery novelist to work with. She would go the extra mile and also had useful things to say, but I think she wasn't tough enough with me, afraid of hurting my feelings. When I contacted her agent about representation, the agent didn't even bother to get back to me!

In addition, I've had two friends, one with an MFA in writing, but unpublished, the other self-published, review my book. My wife, who is excellent with plotting, but not a native English speaker, has also read and made commentary. Still, agents seeing my query letter and my first 10 pages don't want any more.


I feel confident my book would get at least a B if it was a graded assignment. Unfortunately, to make it in the publishing world, you need an A or A plus. I'm not sure if it is there and I don't know who I can fully trust to get me there.

You've hit a few misconceptions here, so apologies if this seems like I'm picking on you. That's not my intent, but you've said some things I feel ought to be cleared up.

SAWeiner said:

I hired one woman who is a writing teacher and a published mystery novelist to review my novel twice. She was a tough critic and made useful commentary, but was careless, not catching big mistakes I myself found later.

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It's not clear in what capacity you hired her or what kind of "mistakes" she missed, but it's important to remember that an editor is not responsible for making your work perfect. An editor's role is to suggest changes; it's up to you to take them or not. They're certainly not there to substantively alter your work.

SAWeiner said:

I then found another woman who is also a writing teacher and published mystery novelist to work with. She would go the extra mile and also had useful things to say, but I think she wasn't tough enough with me, afraid of hurting my feelings.

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It's possible she was completely honest in her assessments of your work.

SAWeiner said:

When I contacted her agent about representation, the agent didn't even bother to get back to me!

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I winced a little when I read this. It's not clear if you used her name when contacting her agent, or if so, that she gave you her permission to do so.

Having a contact with an agent gets you nothing if the agent doesn't want to rep your book. You could be J.K. Rowling's best friend, and if you don't have a book her agent thinks they could sell, knowing her won't matter a single bit.

Assuming you did have her permission to use her name when contacting her agent...the best that'll do is get you a closer reading of your query. It doesn't guarantee you anything.

And yes, it's perfectly possible the author loved your book, and her agent didn't. Art is subjective.

SAWeiner said:

I feel confident my book would get at least a B if it was a graded assignment. Unfortunately, to make it in the publishing world, you need an A or A plus. I'm not sure if it is there and I don't know who I can fully trust to get me there.

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When you hit your 50 posts, head over to Share Your Work and post your query and the start of your book. What you'll find there is a lot of people willing to be brutally honest with you, many of whom are really skilled at pointing out issues and what sorts of changes you might make.

lizmonster said:

You've hit a few misconceptions here, so apologies if this seems like I'm picking on you. That's not my intent, but you've said some things I feel ought to be cleared up.

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Now, it's my turn to reply. My apologies if I'm too harsh with you.

It's not clear in what capacity you hired her or what kind of "mistakes" she missed, but it's important to remember that an editor is not responsible for making your work perfect. An editor's role is to suggest changes; it's up to you to take them or not. They're certainly not there to substantively alter your work.

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Writer/Teacher #1 was hired for a full edit, both as to lines and to content. And yes, there were clear errors with grammar, spelling, syntax, etc. I'm not talking about subjective matters of taste. Also, she showed her carelessness with returning the novel. We agreed she'd leave it with her doorman on a set date for me to pick it up. She neglected to give it to the doorman then, meaning I wasted an hour of my time.

It's possible she was completely honest in her assessments of your work.

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I am not God. Having a reasonable doubt about Writer/Teacher#2, I will not name her to badmouth her. I also feel she did go the extra mile with me, so I am grateful for that. However, I do know I'm still not where I want to be.

It's not clear if you used her name when contacting her agent, or if so, that she gave you her permission to do so.

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Writer/Teacher#2 did give me permission to use her name and I did use it.

Having a contact with an agent gets you nothing

And yes, it's perfectly possible the author loved your book, and her agent didn't. Art is subjective.

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If the agent answered and told me no, I'd agree with you. The fact the agent didn't even bother to answer despite the referral is what threw me, plus my complete inability to get my foot in the door with others since.

When you hit your 50 posts, head over to Share Your Work and post your query and the start of your book. What you'll find there is a lot of people willing to be brutally honest with you, many of whom are really skilled at pointing out issues and what sorts of changes you might make.

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Believe me, I will be posting my Chapter 1 then.

SAWeiner said:

Now, it's my turn to reply. My apologies if I'm too harsh with you.

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My apologies for getting your back up.

SAWeiner said:

I am not God. Having a reasonable doubt about her, I will not name her to badmouth her.

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You have a reasonable doubt about her because she liked your work?

Look, published authors aren't necessarily better critics than anyone else. It sounds to me like she read your stuff, enjoyed it, gave you a critique, and let her agent know you'd be shooting off a query. That query didn't pan out, which is unfortunate, but NRs are common.

When you say "badmouth her," I'm not sure how you could, because I don't see anything here to indicate she did anything but help you out.

SAWeiner said:

If the agent answered and told me no, I'd agree with you. The fact the agent didn't even bother to answer despite the referral is what threw me, plus my complete inability to get my foot in the door with others since.

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FWIW, you're in good company. It happens to a lot of writers. It happens to a lot of really good writers with really good books. It's a rough system to navigate, and there are neither shortcuts nor guarantees.

SAWeiner said:

This issue is a sticking point for me and has me very concerned.

The number of people involved reading my entire novel:5

I hired one woman who is a writing teacher and a published mystery novelist to review my novel twice. She was a tough critic and made useful commentary, but was careless, not catching big mistakes I myself found later. I then found another woman who is also a writing teacher and published mystery novelist to work with. She would go the extra mile and also had useful things to say, but I think she wasn't tough enough with me, afraid of hurting my feelings. When I contacted her agent about representation, the agent didn't even bother to get back to me!

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Editing is a specialized field with several sub specialties. Editing is not proofreading. Structural editing is not copyediting or line editing.

Having a degree in English, or an M.F.A. is pretty much meaningless in terms of whether someone will be a good editor, of any sort.

The degree is about being able to read, write, and sometimes, teach. It won't teach the degree earner to edit. It isn't an indicator of an ability to edit. Even if someone has a publishing certificate or a publishing degree, that doesn't mean they are a good editor, or a good editor for your particular kind of book.

Hang tight and until you reach the 50 post requirement, and can post something in SYW. In the mean time, read all the stickies, read bunches of other people's crits, and try critting yourself. Critting for others is one of the best ways to learn to read closely, and critically, and it will help you revise your own work.

lizmonster said:

My apologies for getting your back up.



You have a reasonable doubt about her because she liked your work?



When you say "badmouth her," I'm not sure how you could, because I don't see anything here to indicate she did anything but help you out.

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"Badmouth" wasn't the right term to use. I definitely believe in her good faith. It's just more my disappointment.

FWIW, you're in good company. It happens to a lot of writers. It happens to a lot of really good writers with really good books. It's a rough system to navigate, and there are neither shortcuts nor guarantees.

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For me, I really believe it's a matter of getting the right ally or allies. I know I can do it ---be published and successful, with the help of the right people. The catch is making that/those connections. I'm sure a lot of talented people have failed because of an inability to link up well. Even in this message strand, I see that a number of individuals don't have good beta readers to help them, an early but important factor on the road to success.

SAWeiner said:

For me, I really believe it's a matter of getting the right ally or allies. I know I can do it ---be published and successful, with the help of the right people. The catch is making that/those connections. I'm sure a lot of talented people have failed because of an inability to link up well.

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Connections won't help you.

Yes, there are probably people here and there who've acquired a publishing deal because of who they know, but they're really rare (I'm guessing they're somewhat less rare in non-fiction, just because you often need a pre-existing platform to get MS interest).

The best way to get an agent? Write a good book, and a good query letter. If you focus on what other people might be able to do for you, you're just going to end up frustrated. There's so much in this business you can't control. Save your energy for what you can.

ETA: You edited while I was writing, so I'll add: beta readers aren't a necessity. They can help you see where your book isn't yet what you want it to be, but they're not going to make you a better writer. IME the best way to improve your writing is by...writing. And reading. A lot.

That's it.

I'd say writing a lot, reading a lot (read widely!) and I'd add to Liz's suggestion learn to revise.