Using words from a different time period/language

I'd steer clear of mater and pater if only for the association with Basil Fotherington-Tomas from the Molesworth books, as any fule kno. (Warning: that's a link to a TV Tropes page.)

Using untranslated words in what's essential a translated text can be problematic, but I wouldn't blink twice at atrium and amphora, because they have specific meanings.

Hi pingle,

My characters speak various languages and sometimes switch in scene, so I've thought about this a lot, how to show it without it being jarring. The protagonists are Germans, their POV, so I don't usually drop German words into the running English text because of Helix's reason. It doesn't fit the fluency of the point of view. But I think it's fair to give the reader a stronger flavor of a time or place or character in the language. Very rarely, I'll use a German word or phrase to illustrate that. We'll see if this makes it past the line edit stage! I used one or two phrases that have no translation into English but the meaning was clear in context. I think any of this can be done, but very lightly, as a part of world-building.

pingle said:

Hi! First post in a long time. I'm currently writing a book set in ancient Rome. I also happen to have recently read a book to my daughter set in ancient Rome, and throughout words were used that were (I presume) authentic at the time, e.g. pater rather than father, but it was mostly in English.
And of course have read lots of other books that do it (I'm currently reading Hild, which does the same but in 7th century Britain), but I've never really focused on it before so I can't recall if it's the norm.

I guess it does add authenticity, but I wonder if everyone does this, and if it's kind of expected when writing historic fiction?

Writing atrium to name that room in the house or amphora to name the storage jar seems right to me, whereas I've used father rather than pater as I felt like the latter broke the flow of the story.
I'm newish to writing historical fiction (it was all YA magical stuff before) so I guess I'm curious as to how much authentic terminology others put in their work. I imagine there is no one 'correct' way.

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Well, for words like atrium, you have the advantage that they're used in English, as well. It's the exact same word with basically the same meaning. There are some Latin words that are convenient that way. Amphora is also perfectly familiar to an English-speaker, so no worries there. You have to write with an audience in mind. A reasonably well-educate audience will be reasonably well-acquainted with Latin words/roots.

All these characters are thinking and speaking in Latin (or whatever vulgar tongue they may be speaking), so any particular word won't stand out to them, anymore than English words would stand out to me. However, when it's a specific term for a specific item/concept that doesn't translate well, I think it makes sense to use the Latin. (I'm thinking of, like, praetor or something like that, which refers to something specific.) Then you have to judge, based on your audience, whether the word itself will be familiar enough in context for your reader to understand, or whether they need some more clues. I'm thinking of a French WIP I'm beta reading; words like musée d'anthropologie are used, but I don't need any explanation because it's evident what it means.

As for mater/pater, I might actually use it in dialogue. If writing about French characters, for instance, I would likely have them call their mother "maman" in dialogue. Adds a touch of flavor, and your audience will understand.

pingle said:

Writing atrium to name that room in the house or amphora to name the storage jar seems right to me, whereas I've used father rather than pater as I felt like the latter broke the flow of the story.

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There is no one way, yet there is a standard way. Translate what has a direct translation and use the original words when those more clearly describe the thing or act. For example of what I do is that in a(n admittably unpublished) historical fantasy with a Japanese MC, I use tokonoma to describe a similar space in an alien room. The character is familiar with tokonoma, reader can look up the meaning in a few clicks through an online search if the context in the scene doesn't provide a strong enough impression, and the word saves me from an awkward description that puts too much emphasis on the alcove (a word that conveys an empty source for many English readers) when the artistic arrangement within it should be the focus. However, the MC refers to his "mother" and "father", because that's a translation that makes the characters' relationships clear without description that inyerrupts the story's flow.

angeliz2k said:

As for mater/pater, I might actually use it in dialogue. If writing about French characters, for instance, I would likely have them call their mother "maman" in dialogue. Adds a touch of flavor, and your audience will understand.

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Interestingly, using pater/mater and using 'maman' are different in effect just because latin is a forgotten dead language and french is a current spoken language. It could come across as too emphatic to use old latin words in such a basic daily context, but it's totally fine if you used 'maman' in a novel set in France, and french is associated with a certain romanticism so it works.

But pater and mater are the formal terms, aren't they? 'Father' and 'mother'. In French, 'pere' and 'mere'.
Is what you want a more informal term, that a child would use speaking informally, to or of a parent?
I believe Daddy is 'Tata' and Mommy is 'Mama'.

I loved First Man in Rome, and I think Colleen McCullough used Tata and Mama, the informal forms.

Good points, all. My main point was that brief, specific words or phrases (especially in dialogue) are appropriate and give a flavor for the time. And anyway, sometimes people use the more formal "mother" and "father", so I still say it's fine to use mater and pater.

Seeing "pater" and "mater" in dialog makes me immediately jump to "pretentious upper class English twit" -- IOW they're a world building cue, all right, but for me not one that works as you presumably intend!

I'm working on a historical fiction novel set mostly in Tudor England, and while I played with adding historical terminology and accents in dialogue, as of right now I don't think it helps the story all that much. I like the idea of including occasional easily understood words to keep the reader in the time/mode, but I'm not sure how much is too much! Thoughts?

Hi Pingle – I remember your writing from Historical SYW; it was very interesting and seemed to have a good balance – carefully placed details, not too many unfamiliar things, just enough to make the reader feel that they are in a different world.

I also don't think you need "pater" or "mater", since father and mother are identical, and Latin, despite being a dead language, does have some words which acquired very peculiar overtones over the ages. In general it's good to be careful with using informal language, because it wasn't all that common. Parents were showed a tremendous amount of respect by their children in most countries until at least the 20th century. A child could not sit or assume a relaxed posture in their parent's presence, without being allowed to by said parent. Crazy times!

Okay – so my story is set in the 19th century Japan, and I had the same problem before I started writing: I wasn't sure what to do with so many terms and titles and honorifics, specific to the Japanese language and culture of the time. I began to read English-language books set in various periods of Japanese history, to see how others deal with it. I found out that the authors generally love to use as much Japanese words in their books as possible, even if there is absolutely no need to. I mean, why say ryokan, when you can say inn? Yes, a ryokan operates in a different way than a Western inn, but so what? It's a Japanese equivalent of an inn. But lots of words, especially titles or honorifics, are used to add authenticity, and come off as wrong, horribly wrong. For example, instead of "mater" and "pater" there are "otōsan" and "okāsan", which are very polite, contemporary Japanese equivalents. But depending on the place and era, the word to address a mother, "okāsan", can be:

– hahaue
– okāsama
– okān
– okā
– okāchan
– okkāsan
– kāchan
– kakā

... which is not all. I try to read every historical novel set in Japan that comes out recently; I can count on fingers of one hand the number of books where this is done right. Even the long-suffering honorific "san" is contemporary; it can be quite rude, depending on circumstances, even now; it can be very rude, or outright impossible to use, in historical fiction.

I also saw readers and reviewers complain that there were too many Japanese terms and unfamiliar words for them to be able to enjoy the book fully; that they appreciated the author wanting to teach them "new things", but that they wanted to be entertained first, and that the constant need to check the glossary or Google didn't allow for that.

So I decided to ditch almost all the Japanese words, titles, and honorifics, and do everything in my power to render them in English, or to otherwise weasel my way around them so that I could make my readers feel comfortable with the characters and within the story. I also found out I'm not interested in showing off my knowledge of the subject, at least not in that way. A few instances where I do use Japanese terms:

1. I decided to keep words which are universally known, and which have no English equivalents – sushi, geisha, and the like – but I'm not using "ryokan" instead of "inn".
2. I sometimes use a Japanese term together with an English one, when the English word alone might bring to mind a different image than I want – "geta clogs" instead of only "clogs".
3. I use Japanese words when they are 100% irreplaceable, surprising, and have an added authenticity bonus. Oiran is an example – for people interested in Japanese culture, "oiran" is a high-class courtesan; but in reality it was a honorific, akin to "lady", used by guests and staff in licensed pleasure quarters to address a courtesan, no matter the rank.

What I really want to say is this, I think – it's not the terminology that makes the story more authentic and immersive for the readers, it's your skill to introduce the readers to the way of living, the attitudes, the beliefs, the mindset specific to that time and place. Actually, I'm also reading Hild at the moment, and I think that Nicola Griffith does sometimes overdo the first, but never, ever fails to employ the second – and that is what makes her book so wonderful.

Sorry for the length – and best of luck

I can suggest going to writings from the period to get a sense of vocabulary and phrasing. There are plenty of writers from then whose works have survived. Yes, the writing may be distorted by translations, but you will get a good sense from it to enrich your voice.

One of my pals reads old magazines, articles, interviews, etc. from more modern venues, the last century or so, and it fleshed out her writing. Her young editor (who apparently had no history classes in college) was quick to point out what she thought were historical errors, only to be shot down time and again by facts collected by the author.

Going to the original sources is better than reading anything in current fiction. I learned a long time ago that fiction writers can and often do get it wrong. Use them for inspiration, never for research.

Another pal had a hobby of reading such historicals, then blogging about the screw ups. She really enjoyed her schadenfreude!

https://www.thoughtco.com/roman-authors-timeline-119490

benbenberi said:

Seeing "pater" and "mater" in dialog makes me immediately jump to "pretentious upper class English twit" -- IOW they're a world building cue, all right, but for me not one that works as you presumably intend!

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I wouldn't use Pater and Mater in a Classical era book for that reason, and because in Latin of the era, Mater and Pater have very specific socio-cultural implications about the nature of the Roman household and clan, as well as specific religious overtones.

You'll notice that authors don't use Mater and Pater in historical novels; see, for instance, I Claudius by Graves.

EmmaReLo said:

I'm working on a historical fiction novel set mostly in Tudor England, and while I played with adding historical terminology and accents in dialogue, as of right now I don't think it helps the story all that much. I like the idea of including occasional easily understood words to keep the reader in the time/mode, but I'm not sure how much is too much! Thoughts?

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I'd try for the appropriate level of formality, and the correct vocabulary, to avoid anachronisms. There's a lot of both formal and casual Tudor prose readily available to use as a model—including lots and lots of letters of various sorts.

Also, as a general note for early forms of English, the Oxford English Dictionary (OED) is a very large multi-volume dictionary that seeks not so much to define words but to show their history and usage in specific eras. It will show the various attestations in context with a date.

Most public libraries have the OED; many have it online.

In my medieval novel I used period words from time to time but only when they'd be easily understood. For example:
"Each table bore a small nef, the largest in full sail before her. The little jewel-encrusted ships brimmed with the spices she had chosen this morning."