Is there a way to effectively counter this right-wing "projection" tactic?

Roxxsmom

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"O

And FWIW, I consider myself a conservative. Most folks would consider the pope to be conservative. Yet Francis has called "Madre Tierra" the poorest of the poor, the one most in need of our compassion. Just because you count yourself as conservative doesn't mean your mind is turned off.


This is a very interesting point, given that the words "conservative" and "conservation" come from the same root. It reminds me of an article I read a while back that explored the rise of anti-environmentalism among what passes for mainstream conservatism today. There was a time when GOP presidents and members of congress championed clean air and water, the Endangered Species Act and so on. I assume it has something to do with their widening embrace of short-term business interests above all else.

The GOP has sided with the oil companies in this issue. What makes less sense is the way many ordinary Americans have bought into this and become openly hostile towards environmental policies that are meant to protect them and their interests (both short and long term). I suppose some of it is because Al Gore made that movie and became indelibly associated with climate change policy in their minds, and since he was a prominent Democrat, they had to oppose it. Would the issue be less politicized today if some other celebrity, one who is perceived as more politically neutral, had made that movie? I suspect not, because the Oil lobby would probably have found a way to discredit (in the eyes of working-class America, at least) anyone who spoke out on the issue.
 

neandermagnon

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Emphasis mine. I think that's a critically important point. Another denialist tactic I often encounter is, "Oh, if you're so so concerned, why are you still using electricity? Still on the Internet? Still using a car? Aren't you just the perfect hypocrite!"

I don't think this is just a tactic of deniers. Or even any kind of tactic, per se. It's an error of thinking that many, many people have. It's another false dichotomy... "it's not good enough to do something if you don't do everything" - literal all-or-nothing thinking. And this sort of thinking puts off some people who do care about the environment (and other issues) from doing anything at all.

There are lots of examples when you get into it. One that comes to mind is an article I read about a woman who gave up sugar. She read that a lot of medical issues in modern times are from eating too much sugar - obesity, diabetes and complications of these, and other health problems - so what did she do? She eliminated *all* sugar from her diet. She wouldn't even eat fruit. Literally everything that had sugar in it... eliminated. She felt good about herself for doing this until she started getting ill and struggling with her energy levels... as you would... eventually going to her doctor, her doctor told her "whatever possessed you to give up ALL sugar? The advice was to eat less sugar."

This all-or-nothing thinking can be found everywhere, even among writers when people fret they can't make a sentence work without using an adverb, but they were warned about adverb overuse/misuse, so they thought that meant they must eliminate every single adverb from their entire manuscript.

Same with the advice to eat less meat... "eat less meat" doesn't mean "go vegan for the whole of the rest of your life" - but people get polarised into "I'm keeping my meat, go away nasty vegans!" and going 100% vegan and feeling guilty because you found out something you thought was vegan actually has a miniscule amount of honey in it and honey comes from bees and bees are in kingdom Animalia*. The extreme polarisation stops people from realising that even if a meat eater switches to having one or two meat free days a week or just stops eating beef and the less environmentally friendly meats, and/or just switches to getting meat from local farmers instead of meat flown halfway around the world, it's still going to help. But people fall into the all-or-nothing thinking, just changing a few things is "not good enough" so people think "why bother doing anything?" and you get vegans lambasting other vegans over minutiae. And some people take it to dangerous extremes, e.g. becoming fruitarian because plants are living things too. (And I know some people's knee-jerk reaction to vegetarianism is "why just animals though? Plants are living things too.")

*I realise there can be environmental issues with honey production but it's not about that, it's about the fact that people are mentally negating all the environmental good someone's doing from not consuming meat and dairy because of a tiny amount of something that was eaten just once and probably made barely any difference at all.

(note: I know not all vegans do this... plenty of people in all walks of life don't fall into this all-or-nothing thinking, but this post is about the people who do, and the consequences, and how widespread it is.)

These are just a few examples. I think the best way to counter this is to shout loud and clear (okay not literally shout, but promote the message a lot) that making small changes is better than making no changes at all, you don't have to be perfect and even if you just change one thing it still makes a difference. I think some people worry that it's going to make people complacent over changing one thing (like they'll change one thing and feel like they've "done their bit" and change nothing else), but in reality the failure to get this message across leads to large numbers of people doing absolutely nothing and closing their mind to the whole idea. Changing just one thing is still better than changing nothing. And quite often when people succeed at changing just one thing and feel good about it, they're a heck of a lot more open to changing something else.

ETA: just to be clear, I have no criticism of going vegan, my problem's with the pattern of thinking whereby people think that unless you do everything 100% to the absolute extreme, you're a hypocrite/doing it wrong/not good enough, etc. Ditto everything else, not just veganism. Kudos to people who do manage to do so much (as long as it's so extreme that it's dangerous like only eating fruit and nothing else) - just I think the message "doing anything is better than doing nothing" needs to be out there a lot more and people need to be aware of the potential dangers of all-or-nothing thinking.
 
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Roxxsmom

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I don't think this is just a tactic of deniers. Or even any kind of tactic, per se. It's an error of thinking that many, many people have. It's another false dichotomy... "it's not good enough to do something if you don't do everything" - literal all-or-nothing thinking. And this sort of thinking puts off some people who do care about the environment (and other issues) from doing anything at all.

Good points, and I suspect this might be the origin of at least some of the hostility some people feel towards liberals. They feel as if they're being told they must give up everything they love, whether it be a lifestyle that requires at least one of the family cars to be larger than a tiny two seater to eating many of their favorite foods.

I have one of those friends who is rather evangelical about diet. She's diabetic and on a diet where she eats no more than 15g of carbs a day (except for fiber), and she's mostly vegetarian too. She insists this diet is responsible for her being able to maintain herself as long as she has as a type two diabetic without the sorts of health deterioration than most her age have experienced, and she's quite possibly right. She also makes it sound as if anyone who eats any carbs, even complex ones, is on a road to hell, and is very righteous about the animals that are being killed to produce food. She's right about that too.

The thing is, I've told her she's probably right, but for me eating is too much a source of joy to adopt the kind of diet she has, where most of her calories come from vegetables and plant-based oils. She always gets kind of frantic at this point, insisting that veggies are delicious and she doesn't miss carbs and meat at all. She barely eats fruits (an occasional small serving of berries is about it).

The problem is, I don't think veggies are "delicious." I eat them because they are good for me, not because they give me any particular joy. I lack the moral strength to adopt a lifestyle that entails giving up pretty much every food I love, aside from (maybe) an occasional mouthful of fruit. And I always walk away from our conversations feeling frustrated and annoyed and bad about myself for being so morally weak.

I'm guessing some conservatives feel like this about their conversations with liberals about environmental issues. Maybe it's less extreme, because we aren't suggesting they give up everything they love. Really, most environmentalists are just asking people to prioritize and make the changes they can afford and to vote in a way that could eventually make it easier for all of us to make good choices. But they hear us hypocritically telling them they can't have whatever it is they love most, whether it be a large family or steak dinners or their house in the suburbs. Knowing there's a kernel of truth in those arguments only makes people more annoyed.
 

Maxx

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If you want a conservative to take global warming seriously, you'll have to tell him that rising sea levels will make all his guns rust out.

Not much else will make a dent.

I used to have long talks with the (presumably conservative and definitely fundamentalist at least in rhetoric since at least one of them was a preacher and a daring missionary) huntsmen I let go after game on my land. Within the context of a vaguely cooperative effort (I would get some choice cuts of meat from any of their kills and even help them haul out anything big), they were willing to discuss "the future" in a open way. I stayed away from stating bluntly that global warming was going to be a big problem and instead described interesting things they might get to do with solar power and so on. They seemed to find the conversations at least entertaining and in the area of religion were happy to let me go to hell in my own way. I did get some meat occasionally and they did get to tell me they knew I was totally evil, though they wished me well and did not suggest I had any hope of redemption which I think was meant in a moderately humorous way.
 

jpoelma13

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...So my question is whether or not there is anything we can do, aside from adopting the same sleazy tactics, that can work to counter it? Reason doesn't work. Is there a way to shine light or to plant seeds without lecturing or citing statistics that will make most people glassy eyed?
If the environment is really that important to you, you could write a story with environmental themes that clearly portrays the issues and how they affect people's lives. It would probably be more interesting than the statistics. You’ve always said you want to see more women in fiction, so you could include a female protagonist or more than one. You could even include some animals. (You love animals, right?)

Different stories appeal to different audiences. I really doubt that climate change deniers would be a good audience for such a story. They’re a lost cause and are very likely to become haters. You can set the spam filter on your email to block the hate mail, but they’re always going to exist. Instead, you could focus the story on appealing to readers who are likely to be interested in such books, like environmentalists or liberals.

I think you should stay away from polemics. If you go after all of the fiscal conservatives by portraying them all as stupid, evil, corrupt or biased, it will only escalate the situation. I suspect that your conversation at the dog-park might have involved angering a conservative. Just walk away from those situations. You don’t need to write political attack pieces.

I’d also advice you to remember that even if a novel has environmental themes, it should also be entertaining. Keep in mind that a lot of people, even liberals, are not hardcore environmentalists. Being handed a lot of rules to follow, especially onerous ones, isn’t fun for anyone. I can guarantee that any novel that has a lot of infodumps preaching to the audience about the need for sweeping reform is reader proof. If it was me, I would try to dramatize the issues.

I know that writing an entire novel is a lot of work. I’m just making a suggestion. If you don’t want to, I’m sure there are other ways you can contribute to environmental movement, like writing scientific papers or giving money to charity or recycling trash. I’m sure you’ll decide for yourself how to help the environment.
 

Roxxsmom

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If the environment is really that important to you, you could write a story with environmental themes that clearly portrays the issues and how they affect people's lives. It would probably be more interesting than the statistics. You’ve always said you want to see more women in fiction, so you could include a female protagonist or more than one. You could even include some animals. (You love animals, right?)

I wasn't asking how to write novels that embrace sociopolitical or scientific themes but how to engage in face-to-face or written discourse about scientific and sociopolitical issues in a more productive way. The Pop Culture, Activism, Current Events, and Hope is more focused on these issues themselves than on writing fiction or non fiction about them. Not that writing well-crafted books isn't a way of reaching some people. However, I doubt that the individual I mentioned in the OP would ever read those kinds of books, no matter how cleverly written. Many people don't read for entertainment or personal education at all.

I agree that winning arguments isn't always (or usually) a good way of convincing people of anything. I'm more interested in figuring out ways to plant a few seeds during these chance encounters with people who are convinced that climate science (or any other science for that matter) is a lie or conspiracy.
 
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lizmonster

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Tone policing is a fairly routine sealioning tactic.

I've read Roxxsmom for years. She doesn't seem to be losing her temper here at all.

The bribing of scientists and financing of denialist organizations is directly relevant to this thread. If you have an issue with Roxxsmom's posts or her temper, please report those posts to the mods. Otherwise, AFAICT, she's stayed on topic, and perhaps you could do the same.

I'll also add that climate change is the most dire problem our species faces. Rage is absolutely the right response to people bobbing and weaving because they disbelieve the evidence before their eyes.