How deep and complex can you get theme-wise for upper MG?

The Second Moon said:

I was wondering if anyone has deep themes in their upper MG books or a book they've read. I've been worried that the theme for my upper MG short story collection (about the same characters) is too deep and complex. The theme is not being afraid to love people. Basically it's about an adult inventor who is afraid to love, but he has a twelve-year old assistant who he takes care of and who he learns to get close to and eventually love like a son. The inventor--who is a POV character along with the 12-year-old-- thinks a lot about what it means to be close to people and that if he does get too close he'll break their hearts. But is this too deep?

I've read in one place that love is a common theme in upper MG, but then I also read that themes can't be too complex, but what is meant by "too complex"?

Please help.

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How much actual MG lit do you read? Not ABOUT MG but actual MG books. You need to read widely in your category and genre, so you understand what's out there, what people are reading, what readers expect, etc.

Themes are plenty deep. That's not your problem. Your problem is you're writing an MG book about an adult -- that's a problem.

Cornflake is absolutely right. There's no substitute for YOU immersing yourself in MG literature. Not even having your little sister read one of your stories (getting critiques from family members or friends is its own topic.) You have to read enough of it that you'll understand instinctively what works and what doesn't. And...um, yeah, having an adult POV character is a big red flag that you should read a lot more in the age group.

Hi, The Second Moon.

If you're going to write in any genre, you need to be reading TONS of books in that genre to get a good idea of style and the expectations of the genre.

Middle grade books typically center on middle grade-age protagonists. You could have an adult secondary character, sure, but from the sound of things, that's not what you're writing. It sounds like your manuscript is either about the adult inventor, or equally split between the adult inventor's journey, and the 12-year old character. This doesn't make it a bad book, but to me, it's not sounding particularly middle grade. More like "The Girl With All the Gifts" which was an adult book with both a 10-year-old main character, and adult main characters.

Have you read the Harry Potter series? How much time did MG-aged characters spend on-page, versus adult characters like Dumbledore or Hagrid?

The Second Moon said:

It took me a little bit to understand this, but now I think I do. What you're saying is that I need to understand my reader and how they think and what they expect. And I'm just throwing this out here, but what if I got a middle grader to read my one of my short stories? My little sister is in the range I'm aiming for, so what if I gave/paid her to read it? Then I could see if kids would get and enjoy the adult's POV. I know that's only one reader, but it might help, along with your suggestion to read some more upper MG.

Thanks.

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Sorry if I wasn't clear, but no, having a kid read your stuff (especially a family member or friend) isn't going to do what I suggested.

Imagine you love mysteries, and someone told you they'd written a mystery. You ask what kind it is, like a cozy or hardboiled, and they say they dunno, they read a few a decade or two ago, but it's a mystery! You would probably not have confidence it's something you're interested in reading, if the person who wrote it doesn't read mysteries, and thus doesn't know the types, or how most mysteries are set up, how they're paced, what mystery readers like about mysteries.

Would you watch a sci-fi movie made by someone who had never really watched or read sci-fi? Think of the mistakes they could make if they didn't know stuff like Asimov's rules for robots existed, or if they'd never seen the depictions of aliens, and they just had a sci-fi movie about an alien named Bob, who looked just like humans, and flew to Earth on a plane from Mars. This would not be a successful movie, because it wouldn't make sense to sci-fi watchers and readers. It's not that every robot has to hone to the rules, or that every alien has to be a grey or whatever, but there should be a reason they're not what people expect, and to do that, the writer has to be really, really aware of what people do expect.

You can't break the rules until you KNOW the rules.

This goes for most things in life. If you bake, and you know, say, the basic ratio for muffins, and how adding extra butter makes a cookie behave vs. extra sugar vs. molasses vs. etc. -- if you know you can add alcohol and it won't have the same effect as milk or water-based things, then you can fuck around with recipes, make up your own recipes, etc., because you understand the rules of baking. If you haven't spent tons of time baking, to where you understand all those rules and more, and you wake up one day and decide to make cookies, and think you love butter cookies, so you're going to make shortbread but just add extra butter because you love that buttery taste, you're not going to end up with cookies. You're going to end up with a mess unrecognizable to people who like cookies. Asking someone who likes cookies to taste it after the fact won't change anything.

Okay...but you need to read bunches of MGs published in the last two years as well. I adore Howl too, but how many decades ago was it published?

The Second Moon said:

It took me a little bit to understand this, but now I think I do. What you're saying is that I need to understand my reader and how they think and what they expect. And I'm just throwing this out here, but what if I got a middle grader to read my one of my short stories? My little sister is in the range I'm aiming for, so what if I gave/paid her to read it? Then I could see if kids would get and enjoy the adult's POV. I know that's only one reader, but it might help, along with your suggestion to read some more upper MG.

Thanks.

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One reader isn't the answer. Your stories could work for your little sister, but not 99% of other readers. Or she could hate it, but most other readers might love it. I mean, there's no harm asking her to read it--if she likes to read--but it will only tell you so much.

The Second Moon said:

I'll read Howl's Moving Castle. Not only is it one of my favorite books, but its MG (or somewhere between MG and YA, but that's where I'm aiming for) and told from an adult's POV.

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It's been a lonnnnng time since I read it, but isn't Howl's omni with the focus on Sophie?

The Second Moon said:

Okay, thanks everyone. I won't show it to my little sister, but I will raid her bookshelf.

For MG books I've read recently... I've read the Children of the Red King series by Jenny Nimmo which feature a few adult POVs but their page-time was short.

I'll read Howl's Moving Castle. Not only is it one of my favorite books, but its MG (or somewhere between MG and YA, but that's where I'm aiming for) and told from an adult's POV.

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You're missing the point. Don't read really old books you've already read.

Go to the bookstore or library, ask what the best-selling MG titles are (that were published in the last year or two), and read a whole lot of those.

Also, Howl's Moving Castle is in no way MG. Children of the Red King is nearly 20 years old.

You need to read a LOT of MG that was published within the past few years.

I agree with the advice to read more MG titles to see how themes are handled - while doing research, I came across a number of contemporary MG books which dealt with very serious issues, so even an online search can show the variety of themes tackled (but reading the books to see how they're presented is important).

As for an adult POV alongside that of a child, I've read a couple of books which have done that. The most recent was The Girl Who Drank the Moon and actually the majority of that story was told from different adult POVs. That book also presented some serious issues, so it might be one to look into, if you're interested. Enchanted Glass by Diana Wynne Jones has two POV characters, one of which is an adult, too, but that's not quite as recently published.

cornflake said:

Also, Howl's Moving Castle is in no way MG.

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It's rated as ages 9+ and in the 9-12 section of every bookstore I've been to, so it's MG in the UK at least. The main thing against using it is that it's pretty old (from the 1980s, I think).

(Second Moon: FWIW I was super pleasantly surprised how many recent releases the library here has. I grabbed a huge armful and brought 'em home and just dug in and it was so entirely worth it.

It's not painful, I promise. If you have a library, they might have a new release section and this might really be fun in the end for you. You might have all sorts of lightbulbs pop on over your head.

Like of all the things I've tried in my writing over the past couple years, raiding the 'new release' shelf at the library is easily in the top five and probably top three. Do it! )

Rereading old stuff really isn't the answer for two reasons. One, it isn't helping you grow. You need to experience books that are new to you, and a wide variety of them, not to reread the same old favorites. Two, writing follows trends just like anything else, and you want to be aware of what those trends are. Even if you choose to take your book in a different path, it (ideally) should be a purposeful decision to do so, rather than because you aren't well-versed in the current literature coming out in your genre.

I don't know about anyone else, but when I read I don't really look for a theme. I read for enjoyment and plot. That's what I did in middle school too. If someone enjoys finding themes and are good at it, then that's them. I personally don't look for it and am not very good at it unless it's being forced down my throat.

I say don't worry about a theme unless the purpose of the book is to teach it.

The Second Moon said:

Okay. So apparently I'm breaking a tiny rule with having an adult POV right? But what you guys are also saying is that I can do it as long as I do it right? I mean, I never meant to color outside the lines. I just wanted to tell a story. I thought it wouldn't be too hard. Apparently I was wrong.

I can't get rid of the adult POV without ruining the entire story, so how can I keep him without upsetting people? It's not like he's abusive, mean, or doing anything inappropriate or illegal. He's nice and I just want my young readers to connect to him as easily as with the boy's POV.

It's not that I don't read MG. I do. In fact most of my favorite books are MG. I just chose to have an adult POV because that's the way the story needs to be told.

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I don't think there's any hard, fast rule about not having an adult POV in a MG novel (as long as there's also a kid's POV) - there are already some books out there like that, such as the examples I listed above. Maybe try reading a couple of books where it's done to see how it's handled and it should be fine.

The Second Moon said:

Okay. So apparently I'm breaking a tiny rule with having an adult POV right? No, you're breaking the most basic rule of children's lit.

But what you guys are also saying is that I can do it as long as I do it right? Anything is possible, but I don't think anyone has mentioned any dual-POV with an adult and child, or adult-POV MG where it's not someone reflecting on their own childhood.


I mean, I never meant to color outside the lines. I just wanted to tell a story. I thought it wouldn't be too hard. Apparently I was wrong.

I can't get rid of the adult POV without ruining the entire story, so how can I keep him without upsetting people? It's not like he's abusive, mean, or doing anything inappropriate or illegal. He's nice and I just want my young readers to connect to him as easily as with the boy's POV. They will not. They're children. They won't connect with an adult POV, or understand it, really. That's why almost all MG and YA lit has protagonists aged just above the reading level.


It's not that I don't read MG. I do. In fact most of my favorite books are MG. I just chose to have an adult POV because that's the way the story needs to be told.

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The ones you mentioned are quite old books -- as noted above, things change in publishing, and in what readers want and expect. Regardless, even years ago, almost all MG and YA has child protagonists, and most exceptions don't have real, normal people. but fantastical creatures, or adults who have various issues that mean they're not just regular-type adults.

https://www.fromthemixedupfiles.com/2017/06/multiple-points-view-mg/

https://electricliterature.com/8-mi...hould-consider-reading-in-secret-4089e3ec6e78

Check out some of those titles. Looks like some great MG reads in that mix. The first link is all multi POV and the second link is all 'great MG reads.'

The only book on those lists that might have an adult viewpoint is Warriors, in which the viewpoint characters are all cats. According to my daughter, some of the viewpoint cats are adult cats. It's amusing to think that one can use a cat as a viewpoint character, but not an adult human. On the other hand, yeah.

The Second Moon said:

Okay. So apparently I'm breaking a tiny rule with having an adult POV right?

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It's actually a pretty major guideline. Can it be bucked? Sure, but IMO, you reeeeeeally need to understand the conventions inside out and backwards before you can effectively break or subvert them.

The Second Moon said:

. . . I just wanted to tell a story.

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Then tell it! Tell the story you want to tell. Get it written out the best you can. No one is stopping you but you.

The Second Moon said:

I thought it wouldn't be too hard. . . .

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So does most every new writer who sits down to put pen to paper or fingers to keys. It's a common non-writer's misconception that writing a story or novel is easy peasy. All you have to do is sit down and do it, right? Not so much. There's a steep learning curve.

The Second Moon said:

I can't get rid of the adult POV without ruining the entire story, . . . I just chose to have an adult POV because that's the way the story needs to be told.

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Then don't get rid of the adult POV, and finish the story. Until that's done, this is all hand-wringing.

The Second Moon said:

so how can I keep him without upsetting people? It's not like he's abusive, mean, or doing anything inappropriate or illegal. He's nice and I just want my young readers to connect to him as easily as with the boy's POV.

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No one here can answer this question for you (or give opinions) based on a general description rather than a specific story.

Write the story you want to write. Get it done! That's the first step. Then, if you're shooting for MG, get feedback on it from writers who read/write MG and then beta readers; but more importantly, read read READ widely in recent MG, especially books with key adult characters. How do the authors handle those characters? How do their treatments compare to yours? How much page time did the adults get compared to the kids? What worked and what didn't? Were they omni, close third, first? What can you learn from those authors, either to apply to your work or expand upon their methods?

IMO, the bottom line (based on your posts) is that you have a story you're excited and determined to tell, and it must be told equally from a child's and an adult's POV. The only option I see is to write the darned story. If it's compelling as written, you're golden. If not, you can reassess.

All the best,
Riv

As Riv said, go ahead and finish your story.

No one is saying you have to take the adult POV out. But keep in mind that it might be that you are writing an adult story, rather than a MG story if the POV is adult-focused so much of the time.

This is going to sound harsh and I've been trying to think of different ways of saying it so it doesn't, so hopefully I came up with the right way . You say you've read a lot of MG including contemporary MG, but then you ask if you can write about a character who worries about getting close to people and loving them. This confuses me because I find the theme of opening up, being vulnerable, discovering that love is okay and so on is a very common theme in MG. The answer you are looking for is found in the books people are encouraging you to read.

(And to be specific in answering your question, my latest series has a character looking to find her family, questioning what family really is, what is loyalty, is it good or bad, can bad people maybe have a bit of good, and can good people maybe do things wrong sometimes. And more. So I obviously do think that the themes you are talking about are more than acceptable )

So yes, thematically you're golden. But as we've discussed before in another thread I believe, I am very wary of your adult POV. It's not impossible to do, as others have said. But you are aiming to be the exception to the rule. And here's the thing. I have been the exception to the rule so I know it's doable. My first published MG was twice as long as the average at the time. And my editor was fine with it. But she was extra critical with my word choices because, as she said, "You are using far more words than the average MG and so we need to make sure that every single word is necessary." You have the same challenge. Because you want to do something different you you need to really ask yourself the hard questions: Why do you need to tell this story, why do you need to tell it with an adult POV, why is the story not about the same two characters but solely told from the POV of the child, is it not possible to illustrate the adult's personal challenges through the eyes of someone else? Think about all these questions, there isn't a right answer. There is only the right answer for you and your story.

Turning the question around: why do you consider that this is a children's book? What is it about your book that will appeal to children? Books aimed at adults or at a non-age-specific audience can have child characters and fantasy elements.

Adults can identify with child characters because adults used to be children. Children find it harder to identify with adult characters because they've never been adults and the problems and difficulties of adults are unfamiliar. My 8 year old recently read Jurassic Park. I don't think she identified much with the problems of convincing investors that the park will be safe and financially viable, or even that much of the scientific ethics stuff. She identified with wanting to bring dinosaurs back to life and how scary it is to have a T. rex and velociraptors chasing after you. So that's why I'm asking you what it is about your book that's going to appeal to children? And is it really MG?

Children's books have very complex themes, though they are viewed through a child's eyes. The Illustrated Mum by Jacqueline Wilson comes to mind - that's about bipolar disorder, living with someone with mental illness and also involves children trying to survive alone while their mother is absent and they don't know where she is and trying to hide what's going on at home. The POV character (there's only one) is the younger of the two daughters. I think she's about 9. So the whole thing's viewed from a child's perspective.

I've read a few examples of children's fiction with adult protagonists or very central adult charaters. The protagonists tend to be quite child-like and easy for children to identify with, often a loveable grandparent type of figure. Examples I can think of: Gangsta Granny by David Walliams (child and gran go on a heist to steal the crown jewels from the Tower of London), Esio Trot by Roald Dahl (lovable old man with quite simple motives, i.e. he's in unrequited love with his neighbour and devises a plan to make her pet tortoise appear to grow). David Walliams has written quite a few books that centre around a child and an adult character. I haven't read Mr Stink (little girl makes friends with homeless man) but I suspect it's also along the same lines. Your book seems to have a similar dynamic, but one key difference is that David Walliams (and Roald Dahl for that matter) write in omniscient POV not from any individual character's POV, and for me that's one thing that makes your description of your book quite different to Dahl or Walliams.

Also, we may not be talking about the same age groups as in the UK in bookshops and libraries, books are usually classified as 0-5, 5-8, 8-12 and teen. Teen is equivalent to YA but not sure exactly where MG fits, might be more like younger teen fiction. Also, I view the child and teen literature market from the point of view of a parent who regularly raids her children's bookshelves. Walliams is usually in the 8-12 category but he's read by a wider age range than that and in some ways his writing style is a little more like the 5-8 category (where a lot of Dahl books are usually classified), only with older protagonists.

In any case, your book needs to appeal to your target audience.