Hello from a penciler/inker/colorist....

GFXJames

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...Or someone that can do all that (so, yeah, the potential would be in webcomics, for me...), but have not done it for long term professionally, just because it pays really low...It's also a drier land, less offers..... And needed to focus on graphic design, illustration and 3D. It was that or stop eating. :D

Not very sure about what's the indie field health these days...
 

dpaterso

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Hey there, welcome to the board.

Things can get kinda quiet-ish hereabouts sometimes, maybe we're all working on our own webcomics and novels!

-Derek
 

GFXJames

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No problem, dpaterso... That's actually good, the indie comic creators must keep active and productive...Also, I know it's holidays in a big part of the world....
Cheers,
 

bottledheat

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Outta curiousity: How is the 3D world coming along? I have a TV editor friend that is convinced that it's the future.
 

GFXJames

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Well...It is indeed the present, but it depends on what are we talking about.
Indeed, learnt 3D decades ago as I got convinced it'd replace everything else... And here I am, making most of the income with illustration, drawing, and 2D graphic design / photo retouch. And as a cartoonist and comic author/creator, couldn't be more surprised. There's been like a huge crash of the comic world, specially in Europe, around the 90s, as from 70s (even from before) to 90s, being a comic creator was a job like today can be a talented game or film artist, meaning, it provided people with a house, a car, a solid salary, instead of starvation, what we experienced some years after early 90s... I moved to graphic design, 3D, web design, etc, just to be able to make a living. Then comic had a strong come back just when internet stopped to be that thing that computer weird geeks use (somebody remember?) , to become of general use. Then we got to be of value again.... :S .

About 3D... Yeah, but I see it a dead end, as an artist. I mean, I can model in 3D, render, animate, texture...But more and more, the models used in games are : A) pre made characters in-house produced, re-used and modified B) Purchased meshes C) Just 3D scans from people, cleaned and optimized in what is mostly a tedious technical labor, little of artistry there. C) Animated highly now by mocap, motion capture. If anything, TOON animation is going to last a bit more, probably, just like comic, the stylized ink expression, caricatures, all what allow us to express as humans, artists... those things have a longer life. Is like everything. We have feelings, and we are problem solvers. The more we can aim to these two aspects of life in our professional activity, the more room and field. Otherwise, we'd be aiming to things that both software and computer/robotic AI is going to do sooner or later.

So, 3D is the future... Not sure, my friend. :D It is for devices, it is for VR, for bio medicine, for everything as consumers... As artists... I see less of a case in that....

If you meant in book covers... heck, no. Photo composition or full illustration are much faster and more personal.
if you meant for making comics... neither. It's being done, but to each his own. With rare exceptions, I can't stand them. Give me a trad pencilled and inked comic page and I'm happy (with traditionally penciled and inked, I also mean digitally painted with a Wacom tablet and pen. I'm not a purist with inking... )

As its capability to produce anything, yep, it has evolved tremendously. And mostly, now is accesible for the average Joe. Blender is the tool I use, is open source, free, and is capable of doing absolutely anything for a CGI film of very high level. I keep up to date in 3D at least as a freelancer. But is never more my main professional focus (plus, I mostly can do all stuff there, in 3D, had to because they force you to at small companies. So...what'd be the point...)
 
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bottledheat

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Gotcha. I was mistaken, I think my source was talking about VR.

The more I read about the comics biz, the more horrible it seems to make anything out of it. It's a shame to me because I really do think it's a way to view a story that everyone can immediately understand, and the format itself has it's own unique tools to heighten how someone will process the story.

At the end of the day, I just like doing it too much to abandon it (that being said, I never really expected to get much out of it, financially).

It doesn't seem like a very sustainable industry, and trying to break in with the bigger Publisher's seems like a crap-shoot.

Although, I feel like that last point isn't unique to this sub only.
 

GFXJames

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Is horrible and is great....This is my POV :

Back in the day, when I was firmly into getting into something in comic creation, doing my self all (drawing, inking, coloring, lettering, the actual script...) , with some friends, together publishing some monthly self published comic magazine ( we knew each other from colleqe, Fine Arts), and the only way possible back then: Self publishing by printed copies, not on demand (no Lulu, cafepress or etc, as there was no internet) , but full runs, it was very expensive, even just the cover in color, and all pages in B/W, low res press. If you just wanted to put your comic out there, you did need a ton of savings. Around 5k to 10k (in my country, that was more money that it means now) , but never thinking you would make a single coin out of it. Just to get known ! (barely... those copies were mostly to send to several comic shops and editorials, not sure what we actually pretended, lol... it was all about closed / non accesible deals, closed to any indie). Indeed, I also worked doing the tech stuff in a video editing group, and we sent in brown envelopes the video tapes to several companies and studios, with almost same hopes... zero.

Now, think about it. Right now there are even places specialized in putting your webcomic and promoting it, for FREE !, and a different type of sites that will allow you to print it on-demand, the order is only started when the customer hits the purchase button, so no investment involved, no stock needed, just so that from every purchase, the site and whole company managing the printing, shipping, etc, takes a big cut from any sale (Or not so big....just like trad publishing always was, but all things considered, a traditional music distro for example, takes a WAY larger piece of it from a music group).

Even more, you can mount your own website ( IE, I can code every bit, but if not, there's Wix, Weebly, Jimdo, Squarespace, Wordpress, even just blogger) even include a Shopify (or whatever) thingy embedded (or not), or whatever the e-commerce. You will need tons of SEO and promotion, but that (a full campaign in the press, radio...) in the 90s meant like half a million (remembering our campaign of a video game, and it was just a "serie B" game...), now is almost free, or some bucks, if you want to do more than the available free promotion. But the fact is that you can put it for infinite selling, at no cost. The "chance", before, costed thousands, while leaded to an almost sure failure, as ppl would only buy mainstream, but you would have printed your 500 - 1000 copies, which you'd store for nothing in your place....

So, in that way, you have it easier than ever now to publish your own stuff .

What is wrong with now ? Speaking mostly of what I know, Europe (Japan and the US is always different, although there are some things in common, at least with the US), that in the 90s there was no option for having some visual, graphic entertaining: cinema was for some occasions... It was a healthy industry from 50s to 80s/90s, you'd get an stable job if were reasonably good (is not impossible now, but imo, is quite more difficult: More artists + less jobs). What really killed comics in Europe was the video club thing... helped later by video games , and later , the last bit, internet. But it has been the actual internet the one to rescue it. Is just that what survived better in a first moment was american super heros genre (still very strong), and Manga (obviously unbeatable: and in Japan the production of these 300 pages weekly books is crazy. There's a culture for comics like in nowhere in the world. And surely the universe. For those of us more in our own style, this was not great news. Today, IMO greatly thanks to inet, there's a ton of indy comic going on (There's a lot of cr4p, xD , but in some cases, extremely good and interesting). But is not a healthy medium for the indy comic artist. Meaning, same number of hours, put into an illustration, graphic design, whatever, grant you more possibilities. And even more if doing just regular design (logos, brochures, banners, etc.)

It is very simple, imo. Meanwhile penciling a full page is being paid in many places at 50 - 100$ per page, and people taking that massively (is not the eventual artist breaking in, which is understandable) , simply there's no business, no freakin way, when there are better options for surviving. It must be, it has to be mostly a hobby, with the open door of having some luck (but luck only comes if there's some skill as a base, and tons of sweat... well, like in every thing in life).

If one rethinks it that way, then, is not that bad. The bad part of it is that it can lead to a disappearance of the indy scene. When professional treatment is non existent (ie, payment, spec work, etc) in a particular niche, that one tends to vanish, pro, high end professionals leave. And let the unidirectional ( and often not very good) mainstream reign and dominate the whole field without obstacles. Is just as bad as when there's no competition but one or two monopolies, in the general market. It's really bad to the public, in general. Indies are always crucial, as often bring individual criteria, help in making the entire readership be more open to other things and views. This in general, not just in comics (books, board games, video games, publications of any types, information, etc).

So, IMO, is fine... unless you want to consider it as a source of income...
 
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bottledheat

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It's a weird situation when everyone has access to the means of production. It's good for production, but at the same time, there is so much shit out there to dig through.

I can't really relate to your college work, since writing and producing was not on my radar back then. Having to deal with it now, though, It seems like production is the easier part. Promotion seems key to getting anything done.

Outta curiosity:
-Have you dealt with any of the newer software? I'm trying to learn more about the creation process my Illustrator is dealing with.
-If you could rate the work-load of Pencilling, Inking, Coloring and Lettering as percentages of TOTAL WORK-LOAD: how would you rate them?
-Is there anywhere I could see your work?
 

GFXJames

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Well, promotion is a bit like everything. I speak about it while maybe I shouldn't, as I don't apply to myself what I preach ( I get into actually making projects, and always forget about ANY promotional stuff)... I worked doing basically that, promotion, SEO, social media entries, etc, at some companies.

Yeah, production...well, more than easy (although, IMO, board games, if one does a bit of everything is more complex, less 1-2-3. And video games require tons of complex technical stuff. Comic is hard, but has less elements/hats) I'd say is straightforward . You have your parameters, your dos and don'ts, and your skill, your craft. Promotion needs some, too, but imo, quite less under control.

Or that (all above) is just my view...

1) Newer software? What do you mean ?. With practically any newer software you could think of (if want advice about some software, just ask me :) ), yep. Mostly being a freak about technology, but also as in my IT-deserted region, I needed to wear many hats to get a salary. (graphic designer, 3D modeler/animator, comic artist, illustrator, pixel artist for retro games in mobile, oil painter(portraits), web developer, tech support....)

Not sure about what are we specifically referring to, here. Is not that comic needs much of that. Indeed, a bunch are yet just using a Bristol paper, doing their pencils and inks traditionally (Some people don't know, but...still pencil and paper, our hand-brain is faster and more accurate than ANY digital pen-tablet (that electro magnetic thing is not that great). It is simply faster with a tablet because the computer allows many corrections and shortcuts that are slower and less productive in traditional.). Color is way , way faster and flexible by computer. I do the 100% of everything by computer. But until around '95, I did ALL by hand, comics, oil/acrylics pictures, terracota modeling... People of my generation and that made my strange professional path have a feel of both worlds. 20ers, not so much, with exceptions, they tend to be full digital. Yet I'm finding (I have a theory: everything comes back, lol) new (young) fresh artists now using traditional, which is both great and surprising (and brings the memories..). Specially as some of those are doing even some great money through Patreon, selling the watercolors, and youtube.

Then there's this complexity imposed by an industry niche : very explicit in the mainstream comics (marvel, etc) . You are entering in an industry chain, usually as an inker, or penciller, or colorist...You need to comply with very rigid specs and rules. IMO, not really a software issue. In mainstream US comics for example, there's a ton of details to observe, to deliver properly to DC, etc. (how to deliver those pencils, inks, flats, etc). Besides, good anatomy , perspective, composition and visual story telling , common for every art. Yet nothing of this has to do much with software. But knowing those industry specifics, and having good habits, is not too complex. Is just to integrate well in the chain. Still, this does not really apply to indy comics, imo. At all. Much less to those which are mostly heading to only web output (webcomics), which I love as is wild expression with no restrictions. (sadly, a lot is low quality, but there are a little few very remarkable).

Or maybe the struggles that some find is in the actual inking/penciling/coloring digitally. Besides actually knowing how to handle the software applications (way easier though than learning all what is needed to be a video game artist or, graphic designer, or etc) there's also the coordination hand-brain-screen with a Wacom or alternative tablets, not easy if you don't have a pen-display (like a cintiq or an alternative), which you can use to paint directly on the screen. Is easier for most people (easier coordination, more natural) than doing it with the non-screen tablets. But I learnt with only a pen-tablet, and I do have that coordination already (still, am more accurate with pen and paper, and as the product has to be of the same quality in both cases, it just means more time consuming LINE drawing (digital painting has less, or no problems, instead) in digital, but gets greatly compensated). In the end, when get used to pen-tablets, can work with larger distance to screen, use professional grade monitors, etc. Has its advantages, besides the much lower price.

2) I'm not sure if you refer to rate as how much I charge per each profile/type of task, or what percentage of time it takes me each task. If is about the money rate, well, a full page is a ton of work (this why I left the comics world, or headed to only do well paid gigs of it, and/or my own comic story, which if I ever get back to doing one, will be almost only for passion and portfolio, and maybe some crazy luck). I could not be able to justify less than 150 $ (or 155, for the paypal commission, sigh...) for a full page of pencils, inks and lettering. And that's dirty cheap (but still, there's people doing that kind of stuff for less!)...I mean, I earn quite more doing about anything else (for the time it takes, probably also working at a Mc Donalds ). Coloring takes quite some time, too, and requires artistic skill, but to me, is less time consuming. So, I wouldn't charge less than an extra of 50 bucks for the colors (totaling 200 bucks) . My take at this is... symbolic payment, mostly. Is something I like to do, but I cannot justify making, and wont do even for my own (my own comic and own story). So, is time not being used to actually make money in a much better ratio. But I'm willing to do it for the sake of having something (not tied to a company's IP or NDA, which can't show, and neither too old to include in my portfolio.) to show in the comics area.

Is not... in proportion with the time it takes (plus, varies from person to person) each stage. Is mostly how I value it, and divided by a large factor, so that an indy writers can think of engaging the project. But lately not really even going for it. I value pencils a lot, as is where all anatomy, perspective and your knowledge to visually tell a story is shown, and can wreck it all from there, drawing is the base of all...or even save the entire thing even with bad color, later on. Inks are important for mainstream, is a very serious profile, but for indy world... I don't k now, for me is not as time consuming. Might be me. Colors... Typically is doing the flats, then adding to it some effects, and thinking well about lighting and color balance.Again, not as hard as the penciling stage.

Sorry that I cannot set some fixed % numbers, here, which I guess is what you wanted, probably to know better the nature of the work of comic artists.

You can put a lot of time in a task, and yet, have quite a harder time doing another task which takes less time. And often, the latter has a very different value in the market (IMO, solid drawing is VERY hard to find. Passable inking, coloring or lettering, absolutely much more common. Even average drawing can (and geez, does..!) make everything cringe, while average coloring, inking or lettering.. not so much. )

If the question was solely how much time it takes (not how each one values the effort, merit, etc, of each part.. and so, how much is charged) , percentage of time used in each stage... Harder to say. In every thing I do, each task can take a lot, or a little, it depends on the nature of the project, and the specs. I can only give a general idea, in my case, but each professional around here will have a different timing. So, no percentages, but I'd say, the harder, more time consuming is the pencil drawing stage. I value coloring (in an artistic way, and there where you show certain skills) quite more over inking... But in reality, in indy comics, you can do some fast techniques for coloring, and inking can be tedious, time consuming. I am not really a letterer... a pro one (remember, despite I am a graphic designer, the mainstream industry is VERY fragmented in specialists. Again, no point, as this is all indy, but, kind of have to search some point of comparison, to talk about it). But in indy field, what I am seeing is I do that part just as well as anyone else, so, there you have it... :D

3) - yep...I guess you have seen my illustration thread (I'm around these parts mainly to illustrate (PAINT, let's be clear with that, hehe) book covers, lol. And as I mentioned, while I have even worked for some national magazine (er, humor strips, small stuff), and a certain big company had me for some tiny webcomic, my main intense activity was during the career (Fine Arts), working for indy magazines, and I don't keep any of those, neither I show anything from '97 and below, as we artists evolve a lot, even in one year.

So, the only work I have online (I have very deeper work, but can't be shown ...yet. And some , I will NEVER be able to show, sigh) is in the bottom of that thread , and also, in a site which is one of those free portfolio sites. Have been asked already, and the reason why I don't put anymore my site, is... As being a web designer, it embarrasses me to show it ( one does not get much access to the designing part on those sites). I need to code my own site, place it in my hosting, and eliminate as well some very old portfolio samples, as do not reflect at all my current quality....

But what the heck, will put here my site, as well... Funnily, there's stuff not present in flickr, and yep in the site, and viceversa. :

The thread (the link is at the bottom of it, where says "some of my portfolio samples")

The (LOL) "site"
 

Kevin_C_Vang

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...Or someone that can do all that (so, yeah, the potential would be in webcomics, for me...), but have not done it for long term professionally, just because it pays really low...It's also a drier land, less offers..... And needed to focus on graphic design, illustration and 3D. It was that or stop eating. :D

Not very sure about what's the indie field health these days...
We are doing fine. I do pencil first as my skeleton before drawing it in ink.