Hiding things from reader in third person limited

Plans never go according to plan...

-cb

"All right, this is what we do..."

*SCENE*

After that, simply not have the characters discuss the plan, or even think about it outside of their own part. So if Character A's part of the plan is just to carry out Operation X, only have him think about his part. That way you can reveal the entirety of it at your leisure.

Laneer said:

My current project is third person limited.

The team has formed a plan to overthrow the powers that be, and are in the process of carrying the plan out. All the team members know the plan. The thing is, if I reveal the plan to the reader upfront, a lot of the surprise is removed.

Is there a way to hide stuff from the reader while staying true to the third person limited format?

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Picking up on cbenoi1's observation - You make it sound as though the plan works, which is not going to be nearly as good a story as if the plan does NOT work and goes badly wrong very quickly..

Don't hide the plan. Create tension in your readers by throwing obstacles in your characters' way and making the characters find creative ways to overcome the obstacles. Make your readers think, "Aw geez, now what are they going to do?" Reader tension = frantic page-turning. That's what keeps your readers up and reading into the wee hours of the morning to see what happens next. It's the number one way to make a novel unputdownable.

Ari Meermans said:

Don't hide the plan. Create tension in your readers by throwing obstacles in your characters' way and making the characters find creative ways to overcome the obstacles. Make your readers think, "Aw geez, now what are they going to do?" Reader tension = frantic page-turning. That's what keeps your readers up and reading into the wee hours of the morning to see what happens next. It's the number one way to make a novel unputdownable.

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Yes. ^^^ this ^^^

In my WIP I do extactly as Ari Meermans suggests. The plan is known. Those involved work to keep it secret from other characters. The plan is dangerous and those involved believe there is a good chance they won't make it even if it succeeds. The climax of my story is actually the plan failing (although the characters survive).

I dunno, the plan falling apart is so heavily used these days it’s almost expected to go off the rails. So I like seeing the rare subversion where it actually pulls off without a hitch.

I see lots of good suggestions here. If the story "needs" this plan to go well, then I like the idea of your viewpoint character only knowing (or thinking about, anyway) part of it.

Another source of tension can simply be your viewpoint character knowing all the things that can possibly go wrong with the plan, even if it ends up being successful. Sometimes the reader knowing how complex and potentially failure prone a plan is (and what the stakes are for your viewpoint character/characters) can be a better tension builder than keeping the reader in the dark.

There is no obligation to tell the reader everything the POV character knows. The character knows a lot of things, like what he ate for breakfast, his mother's birthday, and how to make balloon animals. But they're only going to reveal through the narrator the relevant things in the moment. In executing a plan, these are the current step, and possibly the next step. It might be difficult to have any sudden surprises, but not if, as you say, you have multiple POV characters. If one step of the plan is a cue to another member to begin the next stage, the cue will be expected, but the exact moment of it will be a surprise.

What D. E. Wyatt said, basically. You could tease the reader by revealing what sparked the initial idea behind the plan, which might clue readers in a bit and give them something to think about. To wet the reader's lips, you could show the character's discussing minor details about the plan or going about the preparation process.

I love this question, as it fits my WIP as well.

morngnstar said:

There is no obligation to tell the reader everything the POV character knows.

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I've read the exact opposite advice over and over, and I've struggled ever since trying to resolve it. Readers can feel betrayed if they believe they are firmly in a character's POV only to find out they weren't. (This is different than the concept of an unreliable narrator, which I presume we aren't talking about here.)



*** Very mild SPOILERS for Catwoman/Soulstealer below ***


I just read Catwoman by Sarah J. Maas, and was quite surprised to see (or, read haha) her do this exact thing. Key parts of the mc's plan were concealed from the reader despite the close POV for that character. Granted, I'm no Sarah J. Maas, however I didn't notice any particular technique or expertise she used to pull it off. She just did it. Give it a read if you think it will help you.

If Sarah J. Maas can be wrong on this, then I'm fine being wrong too

Fiction usually works in two ways:

a.) The plan is not revealed to the viewer, and thus goes successfully.

2.) The plan is revealed to the viewer, and thus goes horribly awry.

Of course, there's in-between room, but typically revealing the plan and having it go smoothly is essentially telling the reader what happens before it happens.

All that matters is that it has to be exciting. The execution of the plan, or the failure of said plan, or whatever in the world happens, has to be interesting.

Toto Too said:

I've read the exact opposite advice over and over, and I've struggled ever since trying to resolve it. Readers can feel betrayed if they believe they are firmly in a character's POV only to find out they weren't.

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There is an obligation not to deceive the reader by leaving out information that would have completely transformed the reader's understanding. But there's no obligation to tell the reader everything the POV character knows. If they're about to find out in a few pages anyway, you just haven't gotten around to telling them.

In my understanding, being in POV is having the narrator say what's on the character's mind. If a topic would reasonably be on a character's mind, then hiding it is cheating. But if they would be focused on something else, it's fine. Just construct the scene such that they have something else that consumed their attention.

*** Mild SPOILERS for Catwoman below ***

morngnstar said:

In my understanding, being in POV is having the narrator say what's on the character's mind. If a topic would reasonably be on a character's mind, then hiding it is cheating. But if they would be focused on something else, it's fine. Just construct the scene such that they have something else that consumed their attention.

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This is the standard advice I've seen, but I think it can be subjective. And IME Maas did cheat, based on this criteria. I've kept an eye on the reviews on Amazon to see readers' reactions, but there's hardly any mention of this aspect of the book. I found this one comment:

The whole middle of the book gives you little buy-in for the ending. It's supposed to reveal this plot that Selina has been working towards all along but there were so few hints along the way, that it left the reader out of the reveal.

That's just one comment in one of the handful of negative reviews, out of a hundred reviews that are overwhelmingly positive. So, I don't know. I do wonder though if agents and publishers are far pickier about this than readers. Unless of course you already have the reputation Maas has earned.

morngnstar said:

There is no obligation to tell the reader everything the POV character knows. The character knows a lot of things, like what he ate for breakfast, his mother's birthday, and how to make balloon animals. But they're only going to reveal through the narrator the relevant things in the moment. In executing a plan, these are the current step, and possibly the next step. It might be difficult to have any sudden surprises, but not if, as you say, you have multiple POV characters. If one step of the plan is a cue to another member to begin the next stage, the cue will be expected, but the exact moment of it will be a surprise.

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IRL do any of us know what the day will bring? A character may have a plan, but over the course of my entire life I can't recall a single thing that has ever gone as I expected, and my poor poor characters suffer as I do.

Toto Too said:

This is the standard advice I've seen, but I think it can be subjective. And IME Maas did cheat, based on this criteria. I've kept an eye on the reviews on Amazon to see readers' reactions, but there's hardly any mention of this aspect of the book. I found this one comment:

The whole middle of the book gives you little buy-in for the ending. It's supposed to reveal this plot that Selina has been working towards all along but there were so few hints along the way, that it left the reader out of the reveal.

That's just one comment in one of the handful of negative reviews, out of a hundred reviews that are overwhelmingly positive. So, I don't know. I do wonder though if agents and publishers are far pickier about this than readers. Unless of course you already have the reputation Maas has earned.

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The problem with saying "readers do/don't like [x]" is that all consumers of media have different tastes, different standards, different opinions—and sometimes they have different opinions on the exact same thing in different stories.

Making what you're writing work well is better than worrying about whether or not you should do or not do a specific trope.

indianroads said:

IRL do any of us know what the day will bring? A character may have a plan, but over the course of my entire life I can't recall a single thing that has ever gone as I expected, and my poor poor characters suffer as I do.

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Most things in my life go as I expect. Granted, there are things I expect to go badly—which they often do.

lilyWhite said:

Fiction usually works in two ways:

a.) The plan is not revealed to the viewer, and thus goes successfully.

2.) The plan is revealed to the viewer, and thus goes horribly awry.

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Agreed, this is the standard advice for writing a heist. Most heist movies work this way, too—if you want to see examples, watch some heist movies and note what they reveal (often broad strokes or the key details that go wrong) and what they don’t. And “plan goes successfully” doesn’t have to mean every detail goes right. You can still increase tension with pieces of it going wrong.

The thing about leaving out information depends on how reasonable it seems that the character wasn’t actively thinking about those details. Like, say the character is supposed to be sneaking into a vault. They’re worried about whether they’re going to get through cracking the lock, so that takes up their thoughts. Cracking the lock goes well, then a guard comes through on patrol. Maybe they anticipated that was a possibility, but it wasn’t the big worry because it wasn’t likely at that time of the night. Not a great example, but you could make it plausible.

The worst withholding info is when a character is thinking about something, but details are deliberately withheld in an attempt to build false tension—false because the character already knows the info. “Mindi thought about how terrible it would be if anyone discovered her secret. That thing that she did long ago, when she was still in college. If Ryan found out, he’d be horrified. She’d lose him forever. He’d never forgive her for the awful thing she did.”

That’s an exaggerated example, but hopefully you get the idea.

JJ Litke said:

The worst withholding info is when a character is thinking about something, but details are deliberately withheld in an attempt to build false tension—false because the character already knows the info. “Mindi thought about how terrible it would be if anyone discovered her secret. That thing that she did long ago, when she was still in college. If Ryan found out, he’d be horrified. She’d lose him forever. He’d never forgive her for the awful thing she did.”

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Why is that false tension, though? The tension is real for the mc. Why is the reader being cheated just because the author is introducing suspense?

Toto Too said:

Why is that false tension, though? The tension is real for the mc. Why is the reader being cheated just because the author is introducing suspense?

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The suspense is false because the character is apparently thinking and worrying about the episode but none of it is revealed - the writer is withholding any detail at all and making it seem as though the character is simply thinking of 'it' 'her secret' 'That thing she did' 'That awful thing.'. She wouldn't think in terms of 'my secret'- she would think of who or what it involved.


JMHO.

Bufty said:

The suspense is false because the character is apparently thinking and worrying about the episode but none of it is revealed - the writer is withholding any detail at all and making it seem as though the character is simply thinking of 'it' 'her secret' 'That thing she did' 'That awful thing.'. She wouldn't think in terms of 'my secret'- she would think of who or what it involved.


JMHO.

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In my opinion, this sort of thing can work—but only if it's something the character has good reason not to think about directly. For example, if it's something they're deeply ashamed of, or a very unpleasant memory or thought.

Bufty said:

The suspense is false because the character is apparently thinking and worrying about the episode but none of it is revealed - the writer is withholding any detail at all and making it seem as though the character is simply thinking of 'it' 'her secret' 'That thing she did' 'That awful thing.'. She wouldn't think in terms of 'my secret'- she would think of who or what it involved.


JMHO.

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For me it is bad when it is done badly or when it exaggerated like the example above but it’s completely normal for someone to think “what would they think if they knew what really happened?” And write that way. If they actually went on and think exactly what happened it would come across for me “as you know bob” which for me would be way worse.

As with most things in writing it’s all about the execution.

lilyWhite said:

In my opinion, this sort of thing can work—but only if it's something the character has good reason not to think about directly. For example, if it's something they're deeply ashamed of, or a very unpleasant memory or thought.

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But isn't it in the circumstances you mention exactly where the intention or falsity lies - trying to give the reader the impression that this 'secret' of what they did is so huge or terrible the character can't even think about it in terms other than 'my secret'. Thinking about the secret means thinking about the detail, and that is withheld.

I agree the execution will be paramount to avoid the reader giving up.

ETA- Elle's example is more acceptable to me because the thought is not about the secret event but about other people's reaction to knowing about it.

Oy vey. There is a difference between actively hiding something from your reader or viewer which you have no intention of ever revealing and building suspense. There's no need to lay out a plan in detail (unless you plan to subvert it) or to reveal "the big secret" upfront. BUT . . . but you do need to lay out clues along the way. You want to keep your reader asking questions for which they expect and should get answers and you want to actively tap into your readers' imaginations and expectations (even if you subvert those expectations).

Think of the scenarios already proposed here. You've let your reader know the overall plan (mission): rescue the hostages, lift an artifact, crack the safe. You'll introduce your main characters and their strengths or expertise, which builds the reader's expectation of the characters' parts in the plan. Your characters need to know certain things to perform their roles, which in turn provide the keys to unlock your readers' imaginations and build their expectations: When does the guard rotation change? What is the guard's schedule of rounds? Where is the safe and what challenges does that location present? How much time does the team have to carry out the mission? CLUES.

Having a big, scary secret affects a person (character) and it manifests in their personality: Are they reserved and don't reveal their background? Do they have trouble relating to other people? Are they unable to form lasting relationships? Are they unable to trust? Do they behave strangely only in a certain type of situation? CLUES.

You have to give your readers something to keep them reading. And don't leave them hanging with major questions unanswered. The poor book will end up bouncing off a wall somewhere.

Also, if a character's role in the story is too big of a spoiler that knowing their private thoughts could wreck the whole thing...simply don't write from that character's POV. ESPECIALLY if one of them is The Mole and you don't want to reveal that up front; that's one of the cases where it can feel like cheating. And there's lots of ways to play with it if you DO want the reader to know, IE if they have a change of heart, or maybe they're doing it against their will, or they smugly think their efforts to derail the plan are going to plan and the tension is therefore whether the rest of the cast is on to them or not.

Bufty said:

The suspense is false because the character is apparently thinking and worrying about the episode but none of it is revealed - the writer is withholding any detail at all and making it seem as though the character is simply thinking of 'it' 'her secret' 'That thing she did' 'That awful thing.'. She wouldn't think in terms of 'my secret'- she would think of who or what it involved.


JMHO.

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I'm with Bufty on this one. If Mindi's secret is that she feels that John's death is her fault, she'd think something along those lines, not just "her secret." You could still use the scenario to build tension. Like, instead of worrying about her secret, she worries people will blame her for John's death. It's fairly reasonable that her thoughts stop there instead of thinking through every detail of that night, and that's all the reader gets at first. So we're still left wondering what she did, and is she really responsible, or is it survivor guilt? Also, will Ryan really dump her when he finds out? Personally, I think this is a lot more enticing than a completely unknown secret. It also helps make the character and her problem more relatable.