The downside of positivity?

Is the book going to happen? Until and unless you finish writing it and polishing it and then submit it to Agents or publishers, or self-publish it- no.

What do you mean -harder than it should be?

Writing is a craft that has to be learned like any other craft. If it was easy everybody and everything would be published.

Do you really want help with your writing technique or to know if it's readable or interesting or whatever? Yes? Then take the advice you've been given and post it in the SYW forum and stop wringing your hands.

Ask folk to be gentle if that's what you want but you'll get honesty whether it's gentle or not, and nobody here wishes you anything other than for you to have fun with - and enjoy - your writing.

Toto Too said:

Thanks again for all the great advice.

SYW and CP's are wonderful, and of course they'll point out your flaws and help you improve. But sometimes, just leveling with someone they may not be cut out for what they're trying to do is actually doing them a kindness . I was just wondering if that was a thing that ever happens. It seems not

There's really no point yet in having this hot mess of a WIP critiqued in something like SYW. What I'm really trying to figure out is - straight up - is this book going to happen? Yes or no. Bottom line. I guess the only one that can really answer that is me. I know writing is hard, but it's really feeling like it's harder than it should be.

But hey, this is what the road to success looks like, right? On we go

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Toto Too said:

Nobody wants to be that person who tells a writer that their book is awful. But then, how do we ever know if our book is awful? Or trust someone who tells us it's really good?

If I were to show my WIP to anyone I know personally (I don't really know any writers), I guarantee the response would be "wow, that's really great!" And it would mean nothing.

I've heard that a lot of beta readers and critique partners don't pull any punches, but is that really true? I don't doubt they would level real criticisms about certain aspects of a WIP, and of course that's extremely valuable feedback. But is anyone willing to put it on the line and say "yeah, this book... it's just no good, and honestly, your writing chops really need a lot of work"? Because if they're not, you really have to discount any positivity they throw your way... don't you?

I guess you could pay a freelance editor, but would someone taking money from you actually tell you that you're wasting your time?

Maybe we're just supposed to read between the lines. Do phrases like "this really has potential" and "maybe work on it some more" translate to BLECHHKKCHK?

It probably sounds like I'm looking for someone to tell me my work stinks! But really, I'm just wondering if there are people willing to say that, and therefore offer a more credible opinion.

I've only ever written this one novel, so every stage of this is new to me

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I was reading a ms. the other day and at one point, the thought came to me that I was wasting my time; this person was never going to be a writer.

Then I remembered that this particular ms. was my own first attempt at a novel, and while it was never published, I went on to write 8 more that were.

It is not the job of an editor to say to any writer, "You stink, you're wasting your time; find another job." Not only is that cruel, it's also foolish, because everyone has to learn how to write fiction; no one is great right out of the box, and you can't always tell how far writers will evolve.

That said, if editors won't tell you what you're doing wrong, what good are they? And those things may be small, or they may be so big that fixing them would require rewriting the whole book. As an editor, I don't pull those punches. I try to be tactful, I suggest solutions, and I always explain why I think what I do; but I tell the truth as I see it. I don't see any other way to help. Any serious editor would do the same, regardless of who pays them.

If you want professional feedback on your opening, you might want to take advantage of this offer. Then you'll see what real editorial feedback is like.

Toto Too said:

But sometimes, just leveling with someone they may not be cut out for what they're trying to do is actually doing them a kindness . I was just wondering if that was a thing that ever happens. It seems not

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Barbara has the right of it: nobody says this, because nobody can know.

Use of language is a skill that almost everyone can enhance and develop with work and practice. And that "almost"? There's no way to identify those people. It's perfectly legitimate to critique someone by telling them they need to do more work on (for example) basic grammar and sentence structure, but there's no way to tell what kind of writing they'll produce once they've done that.

The reason no one says "you suck and you have no ability to improve" is because that's not a critique, but an attack. And it's not a legitimate attack, not under any circumstances. Nobody knows who can improve, and by how much.

IME there are a lot more writers who give up because they don't think they'll ever be able to get there (wherever "there" may be) than writers who genuinely lack the ability to learn. Crisis of confidence loses us far more stories than bad grammar.

Toto Too said:

What I'm really trying to figure out is - straight up - is this book going to happen? Yes or no. Bottom line. I guess the only one that can really answer that is me. I know writing is hard, but it's really feeling like it's harder than it should be.

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They say only write if you enjoy it, and I suppose that's sort of true--If you feel pride that you wrote a novel (I'd say you should feel pride--only a small percentage of people actually accomplish this goal once set), then even without publishing it you have a source of pride and accomplishment.

Same for editing. If you wrangle through an edit of your novel, you might look at it and say 'That's better.' And that might feel good.

In terms of how to get there--there are lots of bits of advice out there on how to edit your first draft. For me, I make each edit have a very small goal, and try to focus in on that goal. Like keeping a consistent viewpoint might the goal for one edit. Converting weak verbs to strong verbs, or pruning out echoing words might be other edits. Etcetera. This means I have lots of edit rounds, but after each edit I feel better about the story and at this point I'm happy with it.

You might find a list of edits to be something helpful--it might make the task seem less monumental. If you have a sense of advancement as you rework your WIP into better shape, then it is less like work and more like progress.

(Oh, and I recommend Barbara. )

Toto Too said:

But sometimes, just leveling with someone they may not be cut out for what they're trying to do is actually doing them a kindness . I was just wondering if that was a thing that ever happens. It seems not

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Who has the authority to make such an arrogant statement? It's not kindness, it's hubris.

You (general you) may hand me writing that I think sucks, and I may think you should give up and try needlepoint, but that's not my call and I would never say it. Not even if you point blank said, "Should I give up?" My answer would be: "That's a call only you can make." Each person has to decide for themselves whether they're cut out for this. Maybe you are, maybe you're not, maybe you're not *yet*.

Who would be qualified to encourage another human being to abandon their dreams? What's the criteria? Do they have to be published X number of times? Be an MFA graduate? MFA instructor? Random stranger on the internet?

For Pete's sake, don't give anybody that kind of power over you.



By the way, this IS hard.

Carrie in PA said:

By the way, this IS hard.

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Hah! No shit. I'm humbled, and i'm damn good at most things i try.

I can pull names, characters, plots, stories, places, things, themes... out of thin air. It is so ridiculously easy for me it boggles me that other people cant do it. Creativity is definitely something i am gifted with, but that alone does not finish a book. I suffer in other ways. One, i quite literally have NO education. I quit paying attention in school after grade 6, and survived the next 6 on C-'s, and P's, or even cheating if i couldn't do that. I left grade 12 with a pathetic vocabulary (and only as good as it was because i was an extremely erudite kid), and at the time... that was all i needed. So everything i know about the English language that wasn't taught in the first 7 years was learned on my own since. I've obviously self-educated, fairly thoroughly, but that does not include anything on writing. Not a single course, workshop, or even an article. Second, i dont read fiction. Yeah yeah...i know i 'need to', but i... well... i just bloody dont. I WANT to... it just doesn't happen. So i have maybe 30 novels read over my lifetime to reference. I think i do okay, considering, but i think my weaknesses dont lie in these areas. My weaknesses, are simply just doing the damn work. The 'meat'. Finishing. That, and confidence. My beta reads have been... compromised... all of them. I've not yet had one single, solid beta reader give me feedback, so yeah... i'm still kind of suffering from impostor syndrome here. Put me in a music studio and i'll walk in and out of there like a bloody rock star, or even in any other artistic endeavor. But man... there is just something about writing that sacks my artistic confidence.

In my 'day job', i train people. I get anyone from right off the street/first-day/never done this before to the true elite, and i've seen people walk in and effortlessly do something that some other guy has been training HARD for 3 years to do. I've had others start off at a point that is so weak/bad that it makes you wonder if something is wrong, some real deficiency, and certainly, they will never, ever get to even the middle of the pack. But i'll never tell someone they suck, or that they cant do it. There is always something to compliment, and there is always a constructive way to guide them. It becomes all about achievable goals... setting them up, and knocking them down.

Adversary said:

In my 'day job', i train people. I get anyone from right off the street/first-day/never done this before to the true elite, and i've seen people walk in and effortlessly do something that some other guy has been training HARD for 3 years to do. I've had others start off at a point that is so weak/bad that it makes you wonder if something is wrong, some real deficiency, and certainly, they will never, ever get to even the middle of the pack. But i'll never tell someone they suck, or that they cant do it. There is always something to compliment, and there is always a constructive way to guide them. It becomes all about achievable goals... setting them up, and knocking them down.

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I teach private music lessons to kids after school. I have the same exact experience. Some kids can do anything I ask them. Even advanced techniques take them about 3 tries and they they've got it. Some kids are 12 months in and still working on their basic G chord. As long as they're working and putting in the effort, I treat every single one of them the same. Never, ever tell someone who is working on something that they suck. You only need to be better than the skill level you had yesterday. You only suck if you don't practice. While you're learning your craft, it's really important to take this Buddhist approach. Compare yourself to yourself, not to the people around you.

Once you level up enough to start making income, then the game changes. Once you head into the competitive market, the expectation is different, as it should be. That's where the cutthroat competition exists. These are two different ballparks. Applying that cutthroat approach to someone who is still learning their craft can be damaging.

indianroads said:

A good reputable editor would help, but if you’re self publishing the cost might be prohibitive. Beta readers could be hit or miss, some may have a bias against your genre or the characters in your story which would skew the results.

Do you love your story? Have you written it as best as you can, and are you reading / taking classes to improve your skills? Maybe all that is enough. Just keep writing.

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This is the best advice. Just keep going.

Or you can step back and write something else for a couple of weeks, just to give yourself some breathing space before you come back to it if it's screwing with your head just now. But don't give up on the novel.

Patty said:

They say only write if you enjoy it, and I suppose that's sort of true--If you feel pride that you wrote a novel (I'd say you should feel pride--only a small percentage of people actually accomplish this goal once set), then even without publishing it you have a source of pride and accomplishment.

Same for editing. If you wrangle through an edit of your novel, you might look at it and say 'That's better.' And that might feel good.

In terms of how to get there--there are lots of bits of advice out there on how to edit your first draft. For me, I make each edit have a very small goal, and try to focus in on that goal. Like keeping a consistent viewpoint might the goal for one edit. Converting weak verbs to strong verbs, or pruning out echoing words might be other edits. Etcetera. This means I have lots of edit rounds, but after each edit I feel better about the story and at this point I'm happy with it.

You might find a list of edits to be something helpful--it might make the task seem less monumental. If you have a sense of advancement as you rework your WIP into better shape, then it is less like work and more like progress.

(Oh, and I recommend Barbara. )

Click to expand...

Just reading through thread and came upon this. How nice! Thanks for the good word.

Toto Too said:

Nobody wants to be that person who tells a writer that their book is awful. But then, how do we ever know if our book is awful? Or trust someone who tells us it's really good?

If I were to show my WIP to anyone I know personally (I don't really know any writers), I guarantee the response would be "wow, that's really great!" And it would mean nothing.

I've heard that a lot of beta readers and critique partners don't pull any punches, but is that really true? I don't doubt they would level real criticisms about certain aspects of a WIP, and of course that's extremely valuable feedback. But is anyone willing to put it on the line and say "yeah, this book... it's just no good, and honestly, your writing chops really need a lot of work"? Because if they're not, you really have to discount any positivity they throw your way... don't you?

I guess you could pay a freelance editor, but would someone taking money from you actually tell you that you're wasting your time?

Maybe we're just supposed to read between the lines. Do phrases like "this really has potential" and "maybe work on it some more" translate to BLECHHKKCHK?

It probably sounds like I'm looking for someone to tell me my work stinks! But really, I'm just wondering if there are people willing to say that, and therefore offer a more credible opinion.

I've only ever written this one novel, so every stage of this is new to me

Click to expand...

I think the best thing to do is cultivate a few good readers who know how to give a thorough and helpful critique. You shouldn't have to read between the lines. Your critique partners should be able to give you examples to support their opinions.

I have friends who read my MS who say "I found some commas out of place in chapter 10, and you spelled "sheriff" wrong three times." Gee, thanks for reading.

A good critique tells you what works, what doesn't work and best of all WHY something doesn't work. "I like the characters of Ron and Hermione, but the main character, Harry, isn't working for me. In chapter 5 is the perfect opportunity for him to showcase his skills, but he sits passively by and lets events happen. In fact, things just happen TO him throughout the entire first 2/3 of the story. It isn't until he's forced into action that he even takes a proactive step. It would work better if he were driving the plot forward with his decisions from an early point, rather than passively reacting. Also, I have serious questions about how magic is supposed to work. I get magic being different from science, but where does the energy come from, and where does it go when spells are countered? Also, if everything can be done at the wave of a wand, why does anyone have a job at all?"

A useful critique raises questions and explains why certain things aren't working for the reader.

A simple "This is great!" or "This is horrible!" isn't helpful.

Writing is a process. I believe that the only books that fundamentally won't work are ones that you don't have the desire or patience to nurture. Sometimes that means stepping back from a project to work on other things. Sometimes that means accepting that you need more practice to pull off what you want to do. Sometimes it means being willing to make changes. The purpose of critique is to help a writer make their work as good as possible, not to judge whether the work is worthy.

In terms of pulling punches, I think it's helpful to keep in mind where a writer is at, skill-wise. You're not going to critique a ten-year-old who's writing their very first story the same way you would an adult who's serious about publication. Sometimes when a writer is very new or has a lot of fundamental issues to work on, it's not helpful to bombard them with criticism. It can be overwhelming. But that doesn't mean the only alternative is to lie and pretend their work is flawless. You can encourage them to keep writing and give them a few suggestions to start with.