How many self-published authors get external editors?

Why is your default position that you won't get an agent? Have you written a non-commercially viable book? If so, why would you want to put it out into the marketplace?

Hi Mike,

Many of the self published books I see have not been professionally edited. (others are.) It does show if an editor hasn't gone through it. But, the books are fantastic even without the professional edit, and I enjoy them. They are just a different level of polished.

As an example, I recently finished a great self published book. It's about 180 pages, not really novel length, but the author (who I know) felt that it was done. And the right length. And he'd completed what he set out to, and he was happy to have it self-published. It was unique, and funny, and had line errors and I didn't care when I was reading it.

The sorts of errors in this book are:

"What do you mean?" He asked.

Click to expand...

Whenever a dialog snatch ends in a ?, !, or ., the subsequent tag was capitalized by whatever editing software this person used. You wouldn't see that sort of error in a trade published book.

Guess what? It doesn't bother me. You learn to read around it.

I think it's like listening to a music CD you record or mix yourself with your home equipment, vs a professionally produced music cd. The audience can tell the difference. But you know what? There's room for both in society and people like both kinds well enough.

I doubt a professional edit will affect your sales one way or the other. But, some editors give a ten page sample edit for free, and you might consider having ten pages edited like that to see if you are making errors you are unaware of.

Them's my thoughts.

Patty -

What about developmental edit issues?

This particular book had none AFAIK. I don't know how closely the book hewed to any standard 'story formats,' (it felt like three defined acts and nicely-developed characters) but it was simply fun.

The reason I know the author is because he is in one of my writing groups. I had seen about four of his excerpts when he was writing the book, but he'd had most or all of the remaining chapters through some sort of in-person critique. So it's possible that some of the editing/etc happened in that context.

My first sense about not hiring an editor is that it *does* show in the final product, for sure, and my second sense is that books can be plenty enjoyable without taking that step. It seems strange to pay a grand to edit something that might sell fifty copies. I suppose as an author gains fans, the math changes.

But everyone's mileage will be different on this.

Mike Rousseau said:

I'm likely not going to get an agent, so self-pub is my only option. I've done structural edits, proofreading, and copy edits. Three passes. I'm ready to move forward. The problem is that aside from the $100 I need for cover art, I'm looking at over $1,000 to edit my book due to its size (148k words)

I know I'll benefit from having an editor, so long as I pick a good one. The problem is that this novel is likely going to make $20 at most, and I don't have a grand to spare on the project. I'm not able to afford an editor, and I believe in paying people for the work they do, so I'm not out to get that time donated.

I guess the biggest worry, aside from putting out a really bad book, is that I won't learn and grow as a writer by not working directly with an editor. I've had some beta reads, but as I did it very casually, only one person finished the book. Long books are a hard sell for most people.

Do most self-pub authors actually go and hire their own editors? Or do they just wing it, do what they can on their own, and hope for the best?

Click to expand...

Self pub because you've decided it's the right path for you and what you want, not because you don't think you're going to get an agent (unless those coincide, in the 'I only want to write 26 novellas about the world of toaster elves' kind of way).

There are plenty of self-pubbed books that were not professionally edited. In a general sense, they'd mostly been better off if they had been.

You can learn and grow as a writer without working with an editor. You can start in the SYW section here, critiquing and, once you have 50 posts, putting your own work up for critique. You can join writers' groups in person or online. You can take classes in person or online. That said, even editors have editors, because, for the most part, people have blind spots when it comes to their own work, in ways both large and small.

As to publishing, if you decide you want to self publish your book, decide what your goals are. If you just want to put it out there, and don't have or want to save the money for editing, well, plenty of people do just that. If you want to put out the best product you can, maybe you save up for an editor, and work on it and other projects in the meantime. Maybe you decide you want to pursue a trade deal, in which case you'll probably need to trim the thing regardless, so see above the SYW and etc., stuff to improve on your own.

I utterly disagree with Patty that it doesn't matter to readers. Everyone is individual, and of course, there are people who will overlook errors and plot holes and etc. Personally, if I 'look inside' a book and see an error, I'm likely out. If I see two, no chance I'm doing anything but closing it. I don't care what it is.

cornflake said:

Self pub because you've decided it's the right path for you and what you want, not because you don't think you're going to get an agent (unless those coincide, in the 'I only want to write 26 novellas about the world of toaster elves' kind of way).

Click to expand...

This. There are all kinds of projects that fit better with self-pub.

cornflake said:

I utterly disagree with Patty that it doesn't matter to readers. Everyone is individual, and of course, there are people who will overlook errors and plot holes and etc. Personally, if I 'look inside' a book and see an error, I'm likely out. If I see two, no chance I'm doing anything but closing it. I don't care what it is.

Click to expand...

Agreed, in particular regarding line editing errors like capital letters where they don't belong. I find that sort of thing immensely distracting, and wouldn't be able to enjoy a book that had too much of it.

cornflake said:

Personally, if I 'look inside' a book and see an error, I'm likely out. If I see two, no chance I'm doing anything but closing it. I don't care what it is.

Click to expand...

FWIW, this is me, too. Blatant errors (as opposed to the occasional typo) are far too distracting to me, and I've passed on many a self-published book after taking a peek at the "Look Inside" preview. If there are multiple errors in the first few hundred words, the text is likely to be riddled with them throughout. Plus, I don't want to develop the habit of overlooking errors and affect my own editing skills. With a bajillion books out there to read, I would choose one that didn't have basic errors. Take with salt!

All the best,
Riv

Mike Rousseau said:

I guess the biggest worry, aside from putting out a really bad book, . . .

Click to expand...

Have you had beta readers?

Mike Rousseau said:

@Patty - That's good to hear, at least. I tend to find 1-5 errors in every trad pub novel I read. I expect I'll have a few, and the work won't be as tight.

All of the editors I've found don't offer unpaid work, and I wouldn't ask for unpaid labor, anyway. Unfortunately, that's not an option, but I appreciate the insight..

Click to expand...

Just to be clear--I sure as heck don't recommend exploiting editors for free samples. In case it came across that way, that wasn't my intent. Ah, internet.

But that when you interview editors before hiring one, many will give a sample to help you find the best fit for your needs. I've been interviewing a few editors as I work through the same puzzle you are working through. For some, you can also pay a small fee for a short sample edit (like $50 for 5000 words) and get some good insight about your blind spots that way too. I've done both, and slowly winding the path toward a product.

But on a bigger level, it really depends on your goal. I keep thinking about my aunt who self published her memoir, (Tyele). I think it was mostly for her kids and the rest of us in the family. Maybe for more than that, I don't think so though. She isn't trying to build a fan base, but leave her story, and that makes sense to me.

The world is big. Self publishing is a great option.

Mike Rousseau said:

Yeah, I mentioned that. Only one of them got through the book, because 148k words is a big ask.

Everyone says they enjoy it? I'm still not convinced it's not a heaping pile, but if it can't get an agent, it probably is.

Anyway, don't worry about it. I'm trying not to.

Click to expand...

I saw the info about only one beta reader finishing it, then promptly forgot it! My apologies.

Once you get up to 50 posts, you have the option of posting your opening in the Share Your Work forum if you’d like some writer feedback. It could give you an idea of how folks might see a “Look Inside” preview.

All the best,
Riv

Mike Rousseau said:

Yeah, I mentioned that. Only one of them got through the book, because 148k words is a big ask.

Everyone says they enjoy it? I'm still not convinced it's not a heaping pile, but if it can't get an agent, it probably is.

Anyway, don't worry about it. I'm trying not to.

Click to expand...

Honestly, if you've got people who say they enjoyed it but didn't actually finish it? I wouldn't put much stock in the 'enjoy it' part of their response.

If you've been querying it and you've only gotten rejections, that could be the query as much as it could be anything else, including, of course, the length.

I am planning to self publish and my novel is being edited now. I believe editing is the most important part of the process of self publishing and the one thing that I can’t do myself. The bottom line is - if my book isn’t good, it’s not going to sell so I need to do what I can to polish it as much as possible. I’m going to do my own formatting and cover but I know I need other eyes on the book as a whole. I am a newbie at this and I look at it also as a one on one class tailored to exactly what I need to know so it’s worth it to me. If you start any kind of business, you have to make an up front investment in it. I figure the money I am spending is not that much when I think about it in that way. I have been self employed most of my life, so self publishing just makes sense to me. I have more control and freedom and that appeals to me. It’s very possible that if you do pay for editing, your editor may be able to help you tighten up and improve the book and you’ll sell more than few copies...

Mike Rousseau said:

Oh, I'm sure it's a combination of the book AND the query both being bad. And I'm aware that it's probably not that good, especially if people can't finish it.

I guess the other option is to toss it and write something else. That's probably more likely at this point. Or just quit. That's an option too.

Thanks for being frank! It's making my decision a lot easier to make.

Click to expand...

I wasn't at all suggesting that tossing it should be your option -- see the above post about SYW, learning to edit better yourself, writers' groups, saving up for editing... publishing, however you go about it, is not a speedy process.

Mike Rousseau said:

Oh, I'm sure it's a combination of the book AND the query both being bad. And I'm aware that it's probably not that good, especially if people can't finish it.

I guess the other option is to toss it and write something else. That's probably more likely at this point. Or just quit. That's an option too.

Click to expand...

Or - do the work. Get some beta reads that say stuff, listen to the stuff, make the changes, and - from what I'm reading here - I'd say yes, pay the money for an editor if you're planning to self-pub. A good editor is worth her weight in gold, if you want to charge people for the book. (If it's just for family and friends - different issue. Family and friends are more forgiving.)

The way I see it, there are two viable options forward--paying an editor, which is risky to my mind. Not just because of the money (because I have paid one and was rather disappointed), but because you're trusting someone with your work. They won't necessarily make it better. Sometimes they just make it different.

I feel more comfortable with the swap-and-grow method cornflake mentioned. I have long-standing relationships with beta friends, most of whom I met in Share Your Work. I learned to edit by swapping with them and doing many SYW critiques. This process has taken years. And I still wouldn't publish without three separate beta-revise, next beta-revise, etc. passes. YMMV.

ETA: But if you do none of the above, I would strongly suggest hiring a proofreader, which is all that a lot of people actually hire when they say they use an editor.

Mike Rousseau said:

Oh, I'm sure it's a combination of the book AND the query both being bad. And I'm aware that it's probably not that good, especially if people can't finish it.

I guess the other option is to toss it and write something else. That's probably more likely at this point. Or just quit. That's an option too.

Thanks for being frank! It's making my decision a lot easier to make.

Click to expand...

1) Or, you may have the wrong set of betas.

2) Story time!

Spouse had a friend who was an amateur woodworker. He got to admiring a lot of professional pieces that had been done only with hand tools, and decided to take a shot at it himself.

He made (IIRC) a table. And it was beautiful. Professional quality? No. You could see the flaws in it. If he'd tried to sell it, he wouldn't have made much. But as a learning piece, especially his first? Just lovely.

But all he saw when he looked at it was that it wasn't a professional quality piece. And he never tried again.

Don't be this guy. 99.99999% of us aren't Mozart; we have to work and polish and learn and learn and learn before we write something really good, and the cycle never stops.

It's not easy. But there's real satisfaction in developing your craft.

3) Do not ever let a bunch of internet strangers talk you out of loving your work. (And yes, it's possible to love your work and recognize that it may want some revision at the same time.)

Mike Rousseau said:

Thanks for being frank!

Click to expand...

You're welcome!!

be frank said:

You're welcome!!

Click to expand...

I love you

Repeated because this is true:

lizmonster said:

99.99999% of us aren't Mozart; we have to work and polish and learn and learn and learn before we write something really good, and the cycle never stops.

It's not easy. But there's real satisfaction in developing your craft.

3) Do not ever let a bunch of internet strangers talk you out of loving your work. (And yes, it's possible to love your work and recognize that it may want some revision at the same time.)

Click to expand...

Hi! I'm self-published. I use an editor... she's not a professional one. She is, however, another writer in my genre, and she does a lot of editing-related stuff for her day job. I pay her for her time, but it's not a large payment.

She isn't perfect, but I don't need her to be perfect. I've learned that my demographic will tolerate some minor errors so long as the story's good, and my readers have learned that if they point out errors to me I go in and fix them ASAP.

But honestly, if your estimated return on investment (ROI) for your first book is around $20, then I don't know that paying an editor is a good idea. I'd recommend swapping favors with a friend who's good with grammar, or looking around for another writer to do a mutual proofreading. Yeah, you'll have to work in that case too, but it's the sort of exercise that can do you some good.