Lit Fic Check-In?

Chris P · Dec 9, 2018

Thanks for the input everyone. I"m happy to report the writing bug seems back (after over 4 years of hibernation! Welcome back, buddy. I missed you) and I got down 11K words into the first draft this week. I'm reading the book it's based on while I do it, and turning the fire hose on myself to try not to get too far ahead in writing. I'm not going to be too hard on myself for that; that's how I'm going to add something new the old classic didn't. I just hope I don't decide the original writer did it better and trash all the scenes when I get there (but if the new stuff is better, then how is that bad?).

This is the easy part, where 80% of the work is done with 20% of the effort. I still have a lot of placeholder names, and some conversations where I don't know who exactly is saying which line or who's there. There's some things I really like, and some things I know I"m going agonize over when it comes time to shape it up and make it work.

EDIT: I'm shooting squarely for the "upmarket" category on this one. That's what I enjoy reading the most, so it's natural that's what I'll want to write.

PorterStarrByrd · Dec 9, 2018

Good to hear.

I know what you mean.

It happens every time I pull out the can of bug spray instead of bug repellant but I only make the mistake every four years or so.

The voices, on the other hand .... never stop making popcorn up there. Wish they wouldn't burn it so often.. the smell sticks around for days.

ap123 · Dec 9, 2018

stevebargdill said:
I write lit-fic! I'm not sure how successfully.

I'm also in the midst of an MFA program, which is problematic. Because to them, anything that they don't like is not lit-fic. That's how they define it. And also, the writing can't make money, but you should strive to make money at it, but don't write for money. Most lit-journals also ask you the writer for money instead of paying for your work. $2 to $5 submission fees. Which I feel is kind of classist, because if you're writing good fiction and can't afford the submission fees then people don't read you, but you're also just rejected a lot unless people know who you are to begin with. But people don't get to know you until you've published. It's a very weird, cliquish world that I want to be a part of for some reason, but there are some issues on how this type of literature is actually defined.

I've found this discussion thread fascinating and informative.

Thanks for joining the thread, Steve! I feel you, re fees and classism in the writing world, particularly (but not limited to) lit fic. I don't have an MFA, which sometimes feels like a hindrance, not having had the opportunity to make those all important connections (and not knowing the correct terminology or even the why, sometimes, lol), but I do what I do, and who knows, maybe one day I'll be the story of the peasant who made a name for herself without it. Doubtful, but maybe.

Chris P said:
Thanks for the input everyone. I"m happy to report the writing bug seems back (after over 4 years of hibernation! Welcome back, buddy. I missed you) and I got down 11K words into the first draft this week. I'm reading the book it's based on while I do it, and turning the fire hose on myself to try not to get too far ahead in writing. I'm not going to be too hard on myself for that; that's how I'm going to add something new the old classic didn't. I just hope I don't decide the original writer did it better and trash all the scenes when I get there (but if the new stuff is better, then how is that bad?).

This is the easy part, where 80% of the work is done with 20% of the effort. I still have a lot of placeholder names, and some conversations where I don't know who exactly is saying which line or who's there. There's some things I really like, and some things I know I"m going agonize over when it comes time to shape it up and make it work.

EDIT: I'm shooting squarely for the "upmarket" category on this one. That's what I enjoy reading the most, so it's natural that's what I'll want to write.

Wonderful news, Chris! Your word count is :e2thud:

, I'm a s-l-o-w writer, so my hat's off to you. As for the original writer/book, not better, different. You're giving the story (I assume) a modern take, with your own spin and interpretation. Best of luck as you continue

zclesa · Dec 9, 2018

Hello all,

Yes, I attempt to write Lit Fic too. I am never sure about the advice on AW, because it does tend to be geared towards generic writing. If something needs a formula, then it must be generic and not Lit Fic by definition.

I wouldn't actually know what to call my writing. I've been published by Litro Magazine in the UK if that helps. I suppose it'd be something like "Accessible Literary Fiction" or "Literary X", X being "Fantasy" or whatever, depending on the exact text I'm referring to.

I think Lit Fic has many classifications within it, but this really doesn't help when looking at agent websites.

There are writers like Joyce, who is barely accessible. Then there's Kafka, who is easy to read, but needs some understanding to truly appreciate. Then there's Ray Bradbury, who I think is extremely literary. Some people call his books (like "Something Wicked This Way Comes") straight-up sci-fi, fantasy, or even children's, but there are words, themes and imagery in that book which a child wouldn't even understand. I suppose I'd call that "literary fantasy".

Then there are books that are labeled as "literary fiction" that I would never call that in a million years. "Secret History" by Donna Tartt comes to mind. Even if that is classed as Lit Fic, it's a million miles away from the depth of something like a Beckett or Kafka.

It' confusing isn't it? I think it's nigh-on impossible to get straight-up Lit Fic novels published these days. Which agent would ever dare to take on something like Ulysses these days? Everyone seems to have to pander somewhat to generic conventions and mainstream tastes, resulting in the "reading group book". This is probably why I barely read any new stuff. I keep re-reading Beckett. I find most contemporary novels unsatisfying, which is not to say they are bad. They're just not to my taste most of the time. Thankfully there is still a thriving short story market I can dip into. Short story writers don't need to water anything down or make it commercial in the slightest.

But if you're writing a novel an want it trad-pubbed, it's a different story. If I ever go that route, I'd probably have to aim for a "reading group book". That is what will get you an agent.

Am I just totally cynical about modern "literature" and the publishing industry? Anyone got any great (not foreign) examples of straight-up Lit Fic debuts from the last 5 years to prove me wrong?

Excuse my grammar, btw. I'm trying to fend off a migraine.

Chris P · Dec 9, 2018

Hi zclesa! Yeah, it's a confusing issue that defies description. As it should be, perhaps. The waters are warm, deep and wide for any of us to admire, dip our toes in, or plunge headfirst.

I read mostly upmarket, so my recommendations might go that way. Recent titles I've enjoyed (not sure if they are debuts or not) are "The Light Between Oceans" by M.L. Stedman, "Sing, Unburied, Sing" by Jesmyn Ward, "The Beautiful Things that Heaven Bears" by Dinaw Mengistu, and for historical "Golden Hill" by Francis Spufford and "Everyone Brave is Forgiven" by Chris Cleaves. I'm quite enthusiastic about writing and storytelling when I seek out the ones I like. Lots of good stuff out there.

Oh, and for my book, I realized I'd not told you what it is. It's based on Sinclair Lewis' "Main Street" but 100 years later. It takes place in the same town, the skeleton of the story is the same, and the motives of the main character are similar--big city woman "reforming" a small town. What I'm amazed by reading through Lewis' story again is how much of what I thought was my own creation comes directly from the novel. Old memories of scenes bubbled up that I had forgotten I'd read. Of course I won't repeat exact scenes or dialog. Lewis puts Carol in similar situations over and over, which I don't think modern readers will tolerate so much. I need to have each one progress, first downward to the depths of breaking my character, then having her build back up and better than before.

Elle. · Dec 9, 2018

zclesa said:
Am I just totally cynical about modern "literature" and the publishing industry? Anyone got any great (not foreign) examples of straight-up Lit Fic debuts from the last 5 years to prove me wrong?

Excuse my grammar, btw. I'm trying to fend off a migraine.

A few debut recommendations at the top of my head:

- Daisy Johnson's Everthing Under
- Eimear McBride A Girl is A Half-Formed Thing
- Sophie Mckintosh's The Water Cure
- Meg Hunter The End We Start From
- Fiona Mozley's Elmet
- Iain Reid's I'm Thinking of Ending Things
- Sally Rooney's Conversations with Friends

ap123 · Dec 9, 2018

zclesa said:
Hello all,

Yes, I attempt to write Lit Fic too. I am never sure about the advice on AW, because it does tend to be geared towards generic writing. If something needs a formula, then it must be generic and not Lit Fic by definition.

I wouldn't actually know what to call my writing. I've been published by Litro Magazine in the UK if that helps. I suppose it'd be something like "Accessible Literary Fiction" or "Literary X", X being "Fantasy" or whatever, depending on the exact text I'm referring to.

I think Lit Fic has many classifications within it, but this really doesn't help when looking at agent websites.

There are writers like Joyce, who is barely accessible. Then there's Kafka, who is easy to read, but needs some understanding to truly appreciate. Then there's Ray Bradbury, who I think is extremely literary. Some people call his books (like "Something Wicked This Way Comes") straight-up sci-fi, fantasy, or even children's, but there are words, themes and imagery in that book which a child wouldn't even understand. I suppose I'd call that "literary fantasy".

Then there are books that are labeled as "literary fiction" that I would never call that in a million years. "Secret History" by Donna Tartt comes to mind. Even if that is classed as Lit Fic, it's a million miles away from the depth of something like a Beckett or Kafka.

It' confusing isn't it? I think it's nigh-on impossible to get straight-up Lit Fic novels published these days. Which agent would ever dare to take on something like Ulysses these days? Everyone seems to have to pander somewhat to generic conventions and mainstream tastes, resulting in the "reading group book". This is probably why I barely read any new stuff. I keep re-reading Beckett. I find most contemporary novels unsatisfying, which is not to say they are bad. They're just not to my taste most of the time. Thankfully there is still a thriving short story market I can dip into. Short story writers don't need to water anything down or make it commercial in the slightest.

But if you're writing a novel an want it trad-pubbed, it's a different story. If I ever go that route, I'd probably have to aim for a "reading group book". That is what will get you an agent.

Am I just totally cynical about modern "literature" and the publishing industry? Anyone got any great (not foreign) examples of straight-up Lit Fic debuts from the last 5 years to prove me wrong?

Excuse my grammar, btw. I'm trying to fend off a migraine.

Welcome aboard, zclesa!

I do think we should be careful to respect each other. Genre fiction isn't synonymous with generic, and while there are more expectations in the various genres than there are in literary, I wouldn't call them formulas. Well written genre is hard to do, in some ways maybe more so because there are more expectations, and yet each writer still needs to produce original characters and interesting plots. Seriously, I couldn't come up with a new serial killer, space opera, and my idea of romance is when Husband tells me my shirt's too wrinkled to wear in public so he irons for me.

Agree that lit fic boundaries are loose, with many styles and classifications that can live under the umbrella. When I'm querying lit fic, I look for agents who say they are looking for/rep lit fic, and then also look at what else they rep, and their other thoughts when deciding if they might be a good match. So when building lists in the past I've looked for agents who listed lit fic, magical realism, dark, or lit fic, quirky, dark.

I don't know you to call you cynical, but it is a rough business, so very, very subjective, I do find it's easy to become cynical. Some of your examples, imo, aren't so much a question of lit fic vs genre vs upmarket as they are modern readers. Ulysses, Joyce, still relevant and worthy reads, but in today's market with today's readers, maybe not practical style choices for agents and editors who are also hoping to rep successes.

My .02: Yup, I do think there are modern lit fic authors and books. Some examples: Chimimanda Ngozi Adichie, Michael Chabon, Zadie Smith, Jeffrey Eugenides, Ottessa Moshfegh, Jesmyn Ward, David Mitchell...there are others. So yes, lit fic has evolved along with reader tastes and the publishing industry, but these are still authors and stories focused on human beings and the human condition.

Again, these are just my thoughts.

zclesa · Dec 9, 2018

Thanks for the recommendations guys! I'm going to have a sneak peek at all of them on Amazon

It would be interesting to look at who their agents are and how they got them. I had a quick look at Daisy Johnson's profile as an example. Her debut was actually a collection of short stories! That's extremely interesting, as apparently "no-one takes on short story collections these days". AT ALL. She's with UK agent Eve White, a very small agency indeed, but a powerful and influential agent.

Good luck with your WIP, Chris. Sounds like an interesting project. I wih I hadn't been verging on a migraine for 4 days - I'm dying to write something!

zclesa · Dec 9, 2018

Hi Ap,

Sorry, I told you I was migrainous - my writing isn't as clear as usual. I certainly didn't mean to disrespect anyone. With my choice of the word "generic", I wasn't actually talking about genre (agh, brain, the word?) cliches or tropes. I more or less meant things that are often advised by agents and AWers, like starting with action on page 1, character arc as a necessity, rounded characters, not head-hopping, cohesive plot etc. These formulae that I see over and over again do not really apply to literary fiction. They may be present, but should not be a necessity as it seems with books that are not Lit Fic.

My point was that who is going to read your manuscript nowadays if you don't start with action on page 1? What agent has the time? I just read the first pages of a couple of my favourite Lit Fic books and stories. Camus would never have had much published. Kafka might've had a few works considered. Steinbeck would have been out on his ear. Do you see what I mean?

MY point is that these strict formulae should not apply to Lit Fic, because that is not the point, but in a way, if you don't do some of these things, then an agent will likely not read enough of your manuscript to find out how good your work may actually be.

Your way of querying is a good suggestion, but I still don't know how you'd bypass the fact that agents don't seem to have the time to take over slush pile manuscripts these days unless it adheres to certain rules from the beginning.

Haha, yeah maybe I just don't like most modern fiction all tht much to be honest. I have never read anything ever that compares to Beckett in terms of being that hilarious, moving, transporting, serious, playful, different and wonderful all at once while also being a deep social commentary.

Elle. · Dec 9, 2018

zclesa said:
Thanks for the recommendations guys! I'm going to have a sneak peek at all of them on Amazon It would be interesting to look at who their agents are and how they got them. I had a quick look at Daisy Johnson's profile as an example. Her debut was actually a collection of short stories! That's extremely interesting, as apparently "no-one takes on short story collections these days". AT ALL. She's with UK agent Eve White, a very small agency indeed, but a powerful and influential agent.

Good luck with your WIP, Chris. Sounds like an interesting project. I wih I hadn't been verging on a migraine for 4 days - I'm dying to write something!

I forgot Emma Glass' Peach as a literary debut.

Daisy Johnson managed to have a short story collection published because she won AM Heath Prize for Fiction, the Harper's Bazaar Short Story Prize and was longlisted for Sunday Times EFG Short Story award, which are both big deals. She currently is my favourite new writer. She used to be represented by Eve White but for her novel she is represented by Chris Wellbelove from Aitken Alexander Associate.

zclesa · Dec 9, 2018

I'm on the same page as Daniel Green, if that explains things further:

[h=1]Empty Rhetoric: Innovative Fiction and the American Literary Magazine[/h]
I think the way writers are advised these days and the state of publishing leads to very little innovation, but more "generic" writing.

zclesa · Dec 9, 2018

Elle. said:
I forgot Emma Glass' Peach as a literary debut.

Daisy Johnson managed to have a short story collection published because she won AM Heath Prize for Fiction, the Harper's Bazaar Short Story Prize and was longlisted for Sunday Times EFG Short Story award, which are both big deals. She currently is my favourite new writer. She used to be represented by Eve White but for her novel she is represented by Chris Wellbelove from Aitken Alexander Associate.

Thanks Elle - yes I saw the short story prizes. Even with those accolades, it is apparently very difficult to get a collection of short stories published. I must have a look at her work. She must be doing something really special.

zclesa · Dec 9, 2018

Oh, I just saw how you win the A. M. Heath Prize - you have to be a graduate of one specific Creative Writing programme. That's pretty much an introduction, not a reading off the slush pile.

That is clearly not to say that her work isn't good. I'm just very concerned with how Lit Fic newcomers can get published without bending to some of the generic rules or getting an introduction.

Perhaps the answer really might be through winning a prize with a short story competition, if you write shorts (particularly if an agency is attached in some way).

Elle. · Dec 9, 2018

zclesa said:
Hi Ap,

Sorry, I told you I was migrainous - my writing isn't as clear as usual. I certainly didn't mean to disrespect anyone. With my choice of the word "generic", I wasn't actually talking about genre (agh, brain, the word?) cliches or tropes. I more or less meant things that are often advised by agents and AWers, like starting with action on page 1, character arc as a necessity, rounded characters, not head-hopping, cohesive plot etc. These formulae that I see over and over again do not really apply to literary fiction. They may be present, but should not be a necessity as it seems with books that are not Lit Fic.

My point was that who is going to read your manuscript nowadays if you don't start with action on page 1? What agent has the time? I just read the first pages of a couple of my favourite Lit Fic books and stories. Camus would never have had much published. Kafka might've had a few works considered. Steinbeck would have been out on his ear. Do you see what I mean?

MY point is that these strict formulae should not apply to Lit Fic, because that is not the point, but in a way, if you don't do some of these things, then an agent will likely not read enough of your manuscript to find out how good your work may actually be.

Your way of querying is a good suggestion, but I still don't know how you'd bypass the fact that agents don't seem to have the time to take over slush pile manuscripts these days unless it adheres to certain rules from the beginning.

Haha, yeah maybe I just don't like most modern fiction all tht much to be honest. I have never read anything ever that compares to Beckett in terms of being that hilarious, moving, transporting, serious, playful, different and wonderful all at once while also being a deep social commentary.

Of course you won't find anything now that compares to Beckett because nobody write now like they did 40 or 50 years ago, like those people didn't write like Dickens back in Beckett's days. The language, style, sociology commentary, culture change with time and hence writing and literature too.

I think it is easy to see people like for example Kafka and Scott Fitzgerald as pillars of the literature now but Kafka didn't become that important until after his death, The Great Gatsby was not a bestseller the year it was published. We cannot know from what it being published now that will become classics in fifty years. Let's not forget that Dickens was a populist writer, who published first serials in magazines, so someone that would be classified as generic fiction.

I think it is also important to understand what is meant by starting with the action: this doesn't mean that you need to start with a car chase, someone jumping out of an helicopter, with big bells and whistles it means start with something interesting, something engaging, something to hook the readers and there are multiple ways of doing that. I suggest for you to read the authors that have been recommended on this thread. I can only go by what you post but it seems you have some serious misconceptions and prejudice towards contemporary literary fiction and the publishing world.

zclesa said:
Thanks Elle - yes I saw the short story prizes. Even with those accolades, it is apparently very difficult to get a collection of short stories published. I must have a look at her work. She must be doing something really special.

Being the youngest ever shortlisted for the Man Booker prize this year I think shows how outstanding her writing is.

zclesa · Dec 9, 2018

Hi Elle,

No-one else in the world has ever written like Beckett as far as I'm aware. The way he wrote is not a matter of it being 40 or 50 years ago and people not writing like that now, or modern readers not enjoying it. No-one's ever written like him and his work is timeless. I first read his work in 1999 when I was 19 and fell in love. I don't think anyone could write like him, and I wouldn't want them to. I'd want them to innovate in their own way.

I know many important writers (and many artists too) were not seriously recognised until much later. What does that mean, I wonder? Whatever it means, it's very sad. I know that Dickens was read by the masses (and that's great), but the only thing he was bound by was deadlines. As far as I know, no-one told him to write the way he did.

I do understand what is meant by starting with action, but my point is that this is just another rule that may limit innovative writing. What if your intention with your novel is to play with the form to express something important, but your writing must be slow-burn in order to do that? For example, you might want to write about the "slow living" movement (can't remember the name for it), and challenge the reader to read slowly. Of course the book would have to be good, and perhaps that doesn't sound like an exciting example, but it is my point that counts. There shouldn't be any rules for Literary Fiction. But then, how do you get an agent to look at something if you don't adhere to these rules? This is the central point of all my posts.

I don't have any misconceptions about contemporary Lit Fic - there is no such thing. It's not a movement. It is not prejudiced to say you don't like something. I do happen to like Jeffrey Eugenides. I don't much like David Mitchell. It's just personal taste, not prejudice. I don't expect anyone to have the same tastes as me. But I do expect that people still want to innovate in a meaningful way, and I think perhaps there is little space for that on an agent's slushpile unless you do something really quirky (which may just be a novelty and not meaningful at all). I'm not saying it's agents' fault. Perhaps it is an inevitability.

I just read the Amazon sneak peak of Daisy Johnson's novel and also the short story which won her Harper's Bazaar's competition. The Harper's Bazaar piece is nothing like her book. The short story is tame compared to the novel and much like modern MFA realist writing - but that's what won her a prize. Her novel, from what I've read of it, is much more interesting. It's doing something different and interesting with language.

Pleas understand that there is no intended criticism of anyone or anything in my comments. I'm simply concerned about innovation potentially getting stifled in much of today's fiction - particularly because of these "rules" that keep getting parroted. And I'm wondering how that can be avoided, if it can, for people who want to create meaningful, innovative Lit Fic.

The way Daisy Johnson has done it is a potential way. Be a great writer, and adhere to some of the rules to win prizes, then shock your agent with how much more brillaince you've got going for you underneath by presenting them with a novel that is innovative and daring. Or similarly, write a successful "reading group" novel, and then present your agent with your Magnum Opus.

I don't know. Like I said, my central point with all my posts is my concern with how innovative writers can actually get a chance of publication.

ap123 · Dec 9, 2018

Agreeing with Elle all the way around.

zclesa,

As I understand it, short story collections tend not to be picked up unless the author is well known & very well published, because they tend not to sell. I think there's a member here who recently received agent interest (maybe she got an agent? can't remember if she signed) because of her published short stories in lit fic mags, but yes, agent still wanted longer work, or linked work.

Someone recently posted a great link the bestsellers vs what was published every year for the last hundred years. I don't remember where the thread was, but I saved the link, and think you might find it interesting.

Starting with action doesn't necessarily mean literally starting with an action sequence. It does mean every word counts, and your work has to be engaging from the first sentence, making the reader want to read on--whether they want to read on because of a great voice, intriguing mystery, beautiful language, a fabulous character, or some combination is up to you.

Between my suggested authors and Elle's list, I think you can see there are works being published that are outside the box, but the truth is, some of the guidelines (because nothing is really a rule) you may be thinking of are good ones for hooking a reader, capturing interest, etc. How you follow those guidelines is completely up to you, the writer.

In the brainstorming section of AW is a thread dedicated to the first three lines of your WIP, very helpful to see what I'm talking about. The last two mss I queried: one opened at the memorial service of the MC's mother, the other opened with a quirky old guy sweeping the street while watching strangers on his block. Neither what anyone would consider action or intrigue.

Please take anything I say with a grain of salt, I'm unpubbed, but when I'm querying I do get requests.

I have to say, I'm enjoying this exploration of what lit fic is/isn't, because to me, that's what lit fic is, an exploration.

Elle. · Dec 9, 2018

zclesa said:
Hi Elle,

I do understand what is meant by starting with action, but my point is that this is just another rule that may limit innovative writing. What if your intention with your novel is to play with the form to express something important, but your writing must be slow-burn in order to do that? For example, you might want to write about the "slow living" movement (can't remember the name for it), and challenge the reader to read slowly. Of course the book would have to be good, and perhaps that doesn't sound like an exciting example, but it is my point that counts. There shouldn't be any rules for Literary Fiction. But then, how do you get an agent to look at something if you don't adhere to these rules? This is the central point of all my posts.

Hi zclesa,

Every rules in writing can be broken as always in writing it is all down to the execution. Again for me your above words mean to you take action too literally. I think ap123 makes a good case of explaining it in the post above mine but to illustrate actions and the lack of innovation:

Eimear McBride A Girl Is a Half-Formed Thing and her next novel The Lesser Bohemians are both written in extreme stream of consciousness that ignore the rules of grammar, sentence construction and punctuation.

Emma Glass' Peach uses a poetry style prose with a narrative where metaphor and the real world are blurred.

Mike McCormick Solar Bones is written as one sentence without any punctuation.

Fiona Mozley's Elmet starts very quietly about a young boy running through the field of his new home, discovering nature.

Ottessa Mosfegh's Eileen opens up on the MC sitting in a bus listing all that his wrong with her and her appearance.

Iain Reid's I'm Thinking of Ending Things is an extremely slow burner psychical suspense that relies heavy on philosophical notions

Talking about slow burner: Edward St Aubyn's Never Mind takes place over the course of a day and tells the story about a bunch of rich English aristocrats all preparing and attending the same dinner.

Anne Burns The Milkman is an extremely slow burner that have a look at the way people living in Northern Ireland during the troubles and how the political and religious situation affected the every day life of common people.

How do you get an agent to read something that doesn't adhere to the rules? By writing it extremely well and make it compelling I think all the above people show that. Also for every book that was innovative 50 years ago there were 100 of others that were not. Innovation is always the exception not the rule.

zclesa · Dec 9, 2018

ap123 said:
I have to say, I'm enjoying this exploration of what lit fic is/isn't, because to me, that's what lit fic is, an exploration.

Thanks. This interests me a lot too.

If I come across as a bit frustrated and cross, I'm sorry everyone. Perhaps it is because I have been rather disappointed when I've read things supposed to be brilliant literary fiction, and I've felt I've wasted my time.

Even dare I say it, Granta, which I used to love in the Iain Sinclair era, publishes a lot of stuff now that really bores me or feels meaningless and/or pretentious. I find a lot of it "same-old, same-old" and am starving for something new. And I was wondering if it had anything to do with this stifling of innovation. Many critics are now are even saying the Man Booker *gosh* is disappointing now. Seriously, Google "Man Booker disappointing".

Certain Lit fic writers, some real American giants, are also now being criticised for seriously stodgy work that has no real meaning and just playing off their big name. Having read and compared some earlier and later works, I can agree in the case of one of them.

I guess I'd like to fall in love again. I want real meaning again. I want magic. But, so far I haven't found that special writer in anything recent I've read. And I'd like to think that people - you, I, anyone - writing Lit Fic that I love has the chance of publication. Of course, Lit Fic that people with different tastes from mine love, too. But my tastes count as well. The Lit Fic I love most is innovative, meaningful and is sometimes the complete opposite of any of the rules/guidelines/advice.

Let's not get fixated on just the "action" thing. I do understand what that means. I'm just concerned that too many people offer this advice and frighten people out of their own creativity. I've felt that way when writing myself! Like I've gone too far and have to reign myself into the mainstream, when that's not how I want to write nor what I want to read.

Even the Writers & Artists Yearbook is now spouting these rules: How to Write by Harry Bingham. That is just wrong! The yearbook is supposed to be for all writers. This is why I'm getting so impassioned about it, I guess. I'm truly scared that meaningful creativity in Lit Fic is being sucked out in a way that it wasn't before everyone kept being told these guidelines.

zclesa · Dec 9, 2018

Elle. said:
Eimear McBride A Girl Is a Half-Formed Thing and her next novel The Lesser Bohemians are both written in extreme stream of consciousness that ignore the rules of grammar, sentence construction and punctuation.

Emma Glass' Peach uses a poetry style prose with a narrative where metaphor and the real world are blurred.

Mike McCormick Solar Bones is written as one sentence without any punctuation.

Fiona Mozley's Elmet starts very quietly about a young boy running through the field of his new home, discovering nature.

Ottessa Mosfegh's Eileen opens up on the MC sitting in a bus listing all that his wrong with her and her appearance.

Iain Reid's I'm Thinking of Ending Things is an extremely slow burner psychical suspense that relies heavy on philosophical notions

Talking about slow burner: Edward St Aubyn's Never Mind takes place over the course of a day and tells the story about a bunch of rich English aristocrats all preparing and attending the same dinner.

Anne Burns The Milkman is an extremely slow burner that have a look at the way people living in Northern Ireland during the troubles and how the political and religious situation affected the every day life of common people.

How do you get an agent to read something that doesn't adhere to the rules? By writing it extremely well and make it compelling I think all the above people show that. Also for every book that was innovative 50 years ago there were 100 of others that were not. Innovation is always the exception not the rule.

Thanks, Elle. This is very helpful. 'Peach' in particular sounds like it's up my alley. I actually wasn't keen on Eimar McBride.

I tell you what I'd love to see for all these books - the query letters and the synopses! Now, that would be extremely interesting. I never quite understand how Lit Fic should be queried if a book's appeal is not particularly based on the story. Or, if one chapter is only a metaphor, where not much happens, how would that come across in a synopsis?!

ap123 · Dec 9, 2018

I'm interested if you would expand on your definition of innovative fiction.

I don't believe in rigid rules of writing, but imo, that last piece you linked wasn't about rigidity, it was reminding us if we're writing in hopes of publication, hopes of being read, we have to write characters and stories that will be interesting to others. Otherwise, we journal.

A novel doesn't have to be heavily, intricately plotted, or plot-driven, but there does have to be a plot--and a through line, even if that line is circuitous. There was another piece by...someone, can't remember who, went around on Twitter last week, another rules for writing piece that was ludicrous. There are a zillion of these essays, articles, books on writing, most won't be helpful, a few will be great, some will have some helpful bits. Take what works and leave the rest.

Generally, I'm not a fan of experimental fiction, but my definition of experimental and yours might be different.

My suggestion would be for you to read broadly, looking at what's being published today, the past ten years, and not just the long established names.

zclesa · Dec 9, 2018

This, from Harry Bingham, annoyed me on his don'ts list "✗ Writing experimental, postmodern literary fiction. Experiment by all means. Then write a book that might actually sell."

This should not be in a book designed for all types of writers, including those who want to experiment. If no-one experiments. then where is progress?

Innovation, to me, can be many things. I have to go back to Beckett to give the ultimate example of work that breaks all the rules and is truly innovative, using it's language, form and (lack of) plot to convey meaning (or meaninglessness in this case). I dare you to find a through-line in 'Watt'

Nabokov's short stories contain very few through-lines. "Pnin" is a wonderful example of this. The story wouldn't sound "interesting" at all if it was written as a synopsis. His use of narrators is innovative. You are never sure whose eyes you are looking through. His use of language is a treat.

I find Mervyn Peake's writing innovative because of the use of language. "Titus Groan" clearly has a plot, but "Mr Pye" doesn't really. I also find Ray Bradbury's work innovative - his voice is incredible and imaginative.

Other innovative stuff: "A Clockwork Orange", "Catch22", Roland Barthes' short stories, Roberto Bolano's novels (I've never seen another writer come up with such an individual technique as Bolano). Hunter S. Thompson.

I'd love to give you more modern examples, but, as I said, I've struggled to come across many that are truly innovative, meaningful, exciting or transporting.

I don't like experimentalism for the sake of it, but I love it when the use of different form itself gives extra meaning to work (like e.e.cummings' poems). Otherwise it's just meaningless novelty.

I like your advice about leaving most of the advice

I never really paid attention to it until I started to see it everywhere. Honestly, I edited a lot of my work after seeing all that and I felt it was much worse! I haven't even worked on it in years because I'm stuck in a mess with it now, not knowing what is OK and what is not. I think I should go back to writing short stories for a while and ignore the rules, see what feedback I get without having any rules in my head.

Elle. · Dec 10, 2018

zclesa said:
This, from Harry Bingham, annoyed me on his don'ts list "✗ Writing experimental, postmodern literary fiction. Experiment by all means. Then write a book that might actually sell."

This should not be in a book designed for all types of writers, including those who want to experiment. If no-one experiments. then where is progress?

Innovation, to me, can be many things. I have to go back to Beckett to give the ultimate example of work that breaks all the rules and is truly innovative, using it's language, form and (lack of) plot to convey meaning (or meaninglessness in this case). I dare you to find a through-line in 'Watt'

Nabokov's short stories contain very few through-lines. "Pnin" is a wonderful example of this. The story wouldn't sound "interesting" at all if it was written as a synopsis. His use of narrators is innovative. You are never sure whose eyes you are looking through. His use of language is a treat.

I find Mervyn Peake's writing innovative because of the use of language. "Titus Groan" clearly has a plot, but "Mr Pye" doesn't really. I also find Ray Bradbury's work innovative - his voice is incredible and imaginative.

Other innovative stuff: "A Clockwork Orange", "Catch22", Roland Barthes' short stories, Roberto Bolano's novels (I've never seen another writer come up with such an individual technique as Bolano). Hunter S. Thompson.

I'd love to give you more modern examples, but, as I said, I've struggled to come across many that are truly innovative, meaningful, exciting or transporting.

I don't like experimentalism for the sake of it, but I love it when the use of different form itself gives extra meaning to work (like e.e.cummings' poems). Otherwise it's just meaningless novelty.

I like your advice about leaving most of the advice I never really paid attention to it until I started to see it everywhere. Honestly, I edited a lot of my work after seeing all that and I felt it was much worse! I haven't even worked on it in years because I'm stuck in a mess with it now, not knowing what is OK and what is not. I think I should go back to writing short stories for a while and ignore the rules, see what feedback I get without having any rules in my head.

Things need to be put in context, Harry Bingham speaks to people who wants to be successful in the sense of reaching a wide audience with their books and also people looking to self-published as he is a self-published author himself, and there is nothing with that. Then in this context his advice makes sense.

With literary fiction like anything else is all about submitting to the right agents. And about the synopsis, all agents I know who have spoken about it only look at it at the end of reading a submission purely to see if the story is coherent to the end and there are no plot hole. What they really judge a submission on is the writing and if they love the story enough to get behind it.

I think you are putting too much weight on the "rules", there is nowhere that says if you don't follow all the rules you won't get published. The way I see it is those are the rules if you want to break them just do it well. Like everything in writing it's all in the execution.

ap123 · Dec 10, 2018

zclesa said:
This, from Harry Bingham, annoyed me on his don'ts list "✗ Writing experimental, postmodern literary fiction. Experiment by all means. Then write a book that might actually sell."

This should not be in a book designed for all types of writers, including those who want to experiment. If no-one experiments. then where is progress?

Innovation, to me, can be many things. I have to go back to Beckett to give the ultimate example of work that breaks all the rules and is truly innovative, using it's language, form and (lack of) plot to convey meaning (or meaninglessness in this case). I dare you to find a through-line in 'Watt'

Nabokov's short stories contain very few through-lines. "Pnin" is a wonderful example of this. The story wouldn't sound "interesting" at all if it was written as a synopsis. His use of narrators is innovative. You are never sure whose eyes you are looking through. His use of language is a treat.

I find Mervyn Peake's writing innovative because of the use of language. "Titus Groan" clearly has a plot, but "Mr Pye" doesn't really. I also find Ray Bradbury's work innovative - his voice is incredible and imaginative.

Other innovative stuff: "A Clockwork Orange", "Catch22", Roland Barthes' short stories, Roberto Bolano's novels (I've never seen another writer come up with such an individual technique as Bolano). Hunter S. Thompson.

I'd love to give you more modern examples, but, as I said, I've struggled to come across many that are truly innovative, meaningful, exciting or transporting.

I don't like experimentalism for the sake of it, but I love it when the use of different form itself gives extra meaning to work (like e.e.cummings' poems). Otherwise it's just meaningless novelty.

I like your advice about leaving most of the advice I never really paid attention to it until I started to see it everywhere. Honestly, I edited a lot of my work after seeing all that and I felt it was much worse! I haven't even worked on it in years because I'm stuck in a mess with it now, not knowing what is OK and what is not. I think I should go back to writing short stories for a while and ignore the rules, see what feedback I get without having any rules in my head.

Really and truly I don't think there are rules. There are guidelines, and using those guidelines can be helpful. It really is up to us, as writers, to communicate our stories in a way that makes sense and appeals to readers (if we want readers). IMO it's helpful to read some novels and the advice for genres other than our own bc different genres tend to have different strengths. That doesn't mean what we produce will appeal to everyone, but the way I see it, if what we've written has all of our intended audience saying wtf? we missed the mark. It isn't because of the market, or rules, or guidelines, or kidsthesedaysjustdon'tknowwhat'sgood.

Write those shorts and see how you feel.

Elle has given you examples of recent debuts that are somewhat experimental in form, I've given examples of recent lit fic published that aren't so experimental, but definitely lit fic.

Elle. said:
Things need to be put in context, Harry Bingham speaks to people who wants to be successful in the sense of reaching a wide audience with their books and also people looking to self-published as he is a self-published author himself, and there is nothing with that. Then in this context his advice makes sense.

With literary fiction like anything else is all about submitting to the right agents. And about the synopsis, all agents I know who have spoken about it only look at it at the end of reading a submission purely to see if the story is coherent to the end and there are no plot hole. What they really judge a submission on is the writing and if they love the story enough to get behind it.

I think you are putting too much weight on the "rules", there is nowhere that says if you don't follow all the rules you won't get published. The way I see it is those are the rules if you want to break them just do it well. Like everything in writing it's all in the execution.

Bolding mine, this can't be said enough--and around AW it gets said a lot.

I do think there's some difference in the US vs UK markets when approaching agents. For both yes, it's approaching the right agents--we hope, oh how I wish my crystal ball wasn't so cloudy.

But I think the synopsis is less important when approaching agents in the US. The majority don't ask for one in the US until/unless they're asking for the full, and even then many don't. Here it's the query and the opening pages. It's funny, sometimes I think my work would hold more appeal for UK agents based on who I see taking/publishing what, but I can't write a decent synopsis, so ultimately that's just a grass is greener thing. :Shrug:

zclesa · Dec 10, 2018

Elle, I don't object to Harry Bingham writing that piece per se - I just object to seeing it in The Writers & Artists Yearbook, which touts itself as a Bible for all writers.

I'm only putting so much weight on the rules/guidelines because they are everywhere, and it made me question my own work so much that I started editing it to better 'fit' with the rules - I think the end result took a lot away from the work. I just don't want people to fall into the same trap that I did. It is very easy to when you see these things plastered everywhere.

Ap and Elle, it's interesting what you both say about the synopsis. In the past, I looked at agents who took on work that could be comparable to what I write (I'm not highly experimental, btw - I'd just like to see more work that breaks boundaries coming out as I like to read it), and most of them are in the US and some of their profiles sound great as well! But from reading the websites ages ago, many US agents only accepted international authors if they'd already been published/ had representation in their own country. A lot more of the work I liked was by international writers, which had then been translated. Sigh. Maybe I'll move to the continent before Brexit happens!

Anyway, I will certainly have a look at some of the work you suggested Elle, and I'll probably stick with writing shorts for the time being. Thank you both for being open to discuss this with me and I am sorry if my tone came across as harsh/cynical/grumpy. I was actually trying to read and write yesterday and couldn't as my migraine got in the way, and that was horribly frustrating. I'm not usually such a grumpypants! Please forgive me.

I do mean what I said about being concerned about so much "samey" work coming out and nothing I've read recently being meaningfully innovative. But, I could have probably said that more gently and without giving you all a headache too!

ap123 · Dec 10, 2018

There are several AWers from outside the US that have US agents, so I think that may have changed since you last researched.

As for innovative/samey in the context of guidelines, without a mss to look at, there's no way to see what is/is not working, or what is/is not too far out there to get an offer from an agent, interest from an editor, and then pass an acquisitions board.

Best of luck with your shorts--and much empathy on the migraine, they can stop my world for days.

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