how do you feel about the use of sexually deviant monsters in a fantasy setting?

nyalathotep

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terror is a real and powerful thing. A monster is ever-so-slightly scarier if it violates you in some way. there have been many of these types of creatures seen in myths and fairy tales. This goes beyond the cliche succubus concept, and includes monsters such as the liderc and the pobobawa. Many of these monsters are far more terrifying in origin myths, and are often used as a warning against STDs or promiscuity?

How do you feel about the use of these creatures in modern story telling? Do they have a place in the current environment or should be left in the dustbin of history?
 

rgroberts

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I think it depends on why you're using them. If you want to use said violation just for its shock value (as a lot of writers do), you're going to turn a lot of readers off. But if you're willing to realistically explore the second order effects and trama that being violated causes characters, I think there's space in fiction for those kind of stories. I'm not sure I'd want to use them for the types of warnings they were historically used for, but if you need a monster of that sort in your story, I see no reason why you should not use them. Provided you don't romanticism their actions.

Just my opinion, of course. But I don't think we should erase terrible monsters from myth or legend simply because they do terrible things.
 

Brightdreamer

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Hmm... I'm getting a distinct "vibe" from this and previous posts.

I am wondering, perhaps, if you might be more interested in the erotica angle than the fantasy angle. One can write both, of course, but it seems that the matter of sex is front-and-center in your questions, so your writing may be more at home there (and maybe erotica readers/writers may be better equipped to answer your concerns and questions about using sex and sexual deviancy as major plot drivers in fiction.)

That said, how I feel about the use of sexually deviant monsters isn't really the question. I am not primarily an erotica reader, which may be more your audience if your focus is sex-fueled magic and sexually deviant monsters. But we are primarily the same animals we have been for thousands of years; cultures may shift, but sexual topics still generate many taboos and fears that are fertile ground for monsters. As the previous poster mentioned, do not feel the need to blunt the edges of myths for modern audiences. Given how humans still seem to have Issues dealing with sex (particularly matters of sexual liberation and nonbinary identification), there would seem to be a place for monsters or beasts/beings who personify those Issues. Just know that the more graphic you get and the more it becomes the center of the story, the more you may be limiting your potential audience - and the more you have to be aware of potentially attracting an audience you may not want, the kind for whom cruelty and dehumanization is the point.

JMHO, of course...
 

Polenth

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terror is a real and powerful thing. A monster is ever-so-slightly scarier if it violates you in some way. there have been many of these types of creatures seen in myths and fairy tales. This goes beyond the cliche succubus concept, and includes monsters such as the liderc and the pobobawa. Many of these monsters are far more terrifying in origin myths, and are often used as a warning against STDs or promiscuity?

How do you feel about the use of these creatures in modern story telling? Do they have a place in the current environment or should be left in the dustbin of history?

I wouldn't read these books (this one and the ones described in the other questions I've seen). I don't want to read stories where monsters rape people. I don't want to read stories where people are raped to get magic powers. I don't like it when characters are constantly pressured to have sex (because being coerced into sex for magic powers, or due to magic making someone have sex, is rape). This doesn't make books scarier for me. It just makes them not very fun to read.

The way you've worded the questions feels like you're trying to get a seal of approval for ideas that you know will put some people off reading the books. There is no seal of approval and you're not going to persuade people who don't like such themes to read the books. So asking people how they feel as individuals isn't going to help you much.
 

KBooks

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I've seen fantasy writers do this. Some have done it really effectively, although I will confess, like Polenth, even though those particular books in that series (one of my favorites) were well-written for what they were, I have NEVER reread them. There will be a percentage of your readership that may find it cool that you tackled the topic (if done well.) You should be prepared that there is a percentage of the population that is squicked out by certain topics.

Also, be VERY careful when writing about sexual deviancy/rape/predatory behavior. Something you said about tying it to STD's and promiscuity sounds dangerously close to victim-blaming.
 

EMaree

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Hey, if monster boyfriends and noncon/dubcon is your kink, go right ahead. But I'm with Brightdreamer that you'll find yourself much happier embracing the monster-sexytimes side of yourself within erotica than in genre fic.

Within genre fic, you can get away with it in grimdark fantasy. But in the other subgenres a lot of readers don't want about sexual assault, and are much more interested in exploring the subject of violation by the supernatural in less on-the-nose ways. You'll struggle to find an audience there.

In erotica, you should find interested readers as long as you clearly describe the content and don't try to be coy about it.
 
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SarahJane

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Writing about rape is EXTREMELY delicate. It can be used to further the plot or character development (ie The Colour Purple) but it should never be used as titillation or for shock value. The way a rape scene is written can make all the difference. Being subtle/fade to black is best. Detailing every scream and such is just disturbing. And properly showing the after effects of rape is really important too. It shouldn't be dismissed/overlooked/forgotten. I once read a fantasy novel where a woman was repeatedly raped but "saved/cured/made all better" by marrying the first "nice" guy who came along. Needless to say, I had no interest in reading any other book in the series.

Another thing to consider is that most publishers have submission guidelines that says they will not under any circumstances bother with a book that has fetishized, glamorized or gratuitous rape in it. Same goes with bestiality, which I imagine would include certain types of monsters. So magical rape monster? I can't see that selling to any kind of reputable publisher and I, as a reader, definitely would not want to read it.

Now, if you're talking about some human-shaped monster who has lots of consensual, kinky sex, that's a different matter altogether. There is a ton of erotica written about vampires, werewolves (in human form), incubi/succubi, etc. But again, consensual is the key.
 

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If you were to include them, it's best to stay vague. The threat of them, simply knowing they exist or might exist generates a certain tension and fear for the main characters. I would have it so where characters think that might be going on when certain people disappear, but we never know for sure. It's the fear of things in the dark and the unknown that makes things like this scary. I think shining a light on it and actually describing them sexually violating people ruins the atmosphere completely.
 

veinglory

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"Deviant" is a loaded term all in itself. If they are promiscuous or like to have sex in a vat of baked beans that is great, no problem. If they do consensual blood play or extreme kink there's still a place for that in fantasy--it is historically one of the most sexual adventurous genres. Look at the anthology "Women who love Monsters" for some examples or horrotica in the mainstream. But non-consent is really going to limit a writer these days due to publishers and retailers staying well away from it in erotica and somewhat away from it in other genres. Whenever rape starts being a real feature of a work its going to get pushback as seen with some zombie fiction writers currently.
 

Maxx

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"Deviant" is a loaded term all in itself. I

I'm not sure the concept of "deviance" really works well for monsters. On one hand, isn't everything they do sort of deviant? Monstrous? And on the other if deviance is the monstrous mode of normality, how can they be deviant in the ordinary sense? I wonder if the required dose of deviance doesn't need to be assumed in the readers rather than the monsters?
 

Ari Meermans

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I'm not sure the concept of "deviance" really works well for monsters. On one hand, isn't everything they do sort of deviant? Monstrous? And on the other if deviance is the monstrous mode of normality, how can they be deviant in the ordinary sense? I wonder if the required dose of deviance doesn't need to be assumed in the readers rather than the monsters?

That's why it's a loaded term. Monsters aren't your readership, human readers are and folks have interesting ideas about what they consider deviant—even to the point sometimes in thinking normal consensual human sexuality they don't happen to understand or agree with is deviant.

ETA: I just wanna point out that the key word above is "consensual". And if rape is your go-to trauma for a woman, I'm not the reader you're looking for. Nope, women are people and we experience trauma in all its forms . . . you know, just like men. <---Gosh, what a concept.
 
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AW Admin

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Maybe a deviant monster would be one who followed every possible propriety.

If you think about it, the protagonist monsters of Monsters Inc. are deviant. They do not follow the accepted standards of their kind. It's been a long time, but I think Shrek might also qualify.
 

AW Admin

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ETA: I just wanna point out that the key word above is "consensual". And if rape is your go-to trauma for a woman, I'm not the reader you're looking for. Nope, women are people and we experience trauma in all its forms . . . you know, just like men. <---Gosh, what a concept.

I'm also going to note that per the stickie in Erotica:

Posts containing sexualized violence, non-consensual sexual situations, or underage characters in sexual situations are absolutely not permitted, and will be summarily deleted with extreme prejudice. All posts are subject to deletion for illegal or objectionable content at the discretion of the forum moderator or board administration. By proceeding, you accept all the terms and conditions set forth.
 

Maxx

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Maybe a deviant monster would be one who followed every possible propriety.

In this case every possible sexual propriety as in, "Y'kirgul always mops up after he reproduces asexually." But is asexual reproduction a sexual kind of thing? Maybe in monsters as in, "As usual with his kind, Y'kirgul always has consensual sex with a super-conscious other-dimensional being while reproducing asexually." This seems deviant to me, though of course it is totally normal for all Y'kirgul and this particular Y'kirgul as well. or even especially since he and/or she is an example of non-deviance to us all.
 

kuwisdelu

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As with most things, it depends. I'm with many of the others here, in that I have very little interest in reading rape-as-horror.

However, there are a lot of ways to play with eroticism, sexuality, and even rape in horror that do interest me. But you have to do it right.

Most people probably don't immediately think of sex when they think of the movie Alien. But the sexually-charged imagery of the Xenomorph and its parasitic life cycle are equal parts fascinating, horrific, and erotic and are all part of what makes the series so good and the alien so scary.
 
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Curlz

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How do you feel about the use of these creatures in modern story telling? Do they have a place in the current environment or should be left in the dustbin of history?
Depending on how your treat the story - your story, your interpretation of the mythological creature - you can be a hugely popular niche writer or somebody whose stories would become hugely popular with thematically related internet communities. Or not. It's not the creature itself that's going to attract readers, it's your writing skills.
 

Lehssner

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Really depends on how it's done. I couldn't really take a rapist monster very seriously in most circumstances. It would feel like the author was trying to shock me just a little too much. It seems like a lazy way of making a story interesting to be honest. But who knows, I've read plenty of stuff I thought wouldn't work but did.
 

Cal_Darin

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So I came here to say much of what has already been said-- be careful with using assault for shock value etc. etc...

But I stayed for the discussion of "deviant" behavior for monsters being following social mores. Thank you for this.

Check out R.S. Belcher's stuff for examples of what you're looking for? Maybe? Six Gun Tarot is the book I'm talking about. I don't know if I would call it done "well", and I almost stopped reading when I got to the otherworldly horror assault scene... Dunno. Just what comes to mind.
 

Layla Nahar

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"how do you feel about the use of sexually deviant monsters in a fantasy setting?"

I'll pass on that.