Cousins as love interests in a fantasy setting - too squicky?

Coddiwomple · Nov 8, 2018

Greetings, oh opinionated ones.

My critique partner has a quibble with a minor and temporary romantic relationship between two first cousins in my WIP. Perhaps I read too much Jane Austen as a teen, but I didn't think it was that big a deal. The setting is a post-post apocalyptic world where technology presents as magic, so it feel more like fantasy. The two characters are part of the nobility.

I'd change the relationship, but it's essential to the plot that the two characters are from the same extended family. It involves inheritance rules for this world and I really don't want to change them unless I absolutely have to. I could probably rewrite to make them second cousins (sharing the same great-grandfather instead of grandfather), or first cousins once removed (have their shared ancestor one's grandfather and the other's great-grandfather), but it would be more complicated that way. I don't want to risk being unnecessarily confusing.

So, what do you all think? Are romantic first cousins a deal-breaking no-no that will set off violent revulsion in YA readers? Did I, in fact, take all the wrong lessons from that British Lit class back in 11th grade? If so, is there a cure — or am I doomed?

Maggie Maxwell · Nov 8, 2018

I think for me, because they're nobility, it's slightly more understandable, though I would definitely prefer it if it were a case where the kids were being pushed into it by the parents but one or both of the kids wanted none of it or expressed the same concerns that I as a reader had. You say it's a temporary relationship, but if it's enough to turn a reader off, they won't stick around long enough to find that out. Make it clear that it's not going to be long-term and that might help.

SarahJane · Nov 8, 2018

I second what Maggie said. Make it clear that they aren't doing this because of their free will. Even though I understand it from an anthropological/historical sense, I still wouldn't want to read about cousins in love/lust. I can't imagine young readers would want to read that either.

Elenitsa · Nov 8, 2018

I think there are many countries where people actually are supposed to marry cousins, for the fortune to remain within the family. India and some Arabian countries are sure like this, but there are others too. And in the past nobody cared about miscegenation or something like this. If your story and civilization asks for it, go for it!

KBooks · Nov 8, 2018

I like the idea of them being forced into it and the kids being disgusted by it and resisting at every turn. For me, JA feels a little different because when I read about hundreds of years ago, I am reading it with my "things were done differently hundreds of years ago" hat on. Of course, you could say the same thing about any fantasy world you create, but when you present it to readers in this day and age, I think you have to have a compelling reason for anything they might find squicky by 2018 standards.

PyriteFool · Nov 8, 2018

Using anthropological justifications is very tricky as first cousin romance is prey widely taboo and even in societies where it isn't, there are often rules about maternal/paternal cousins, etc. Also you are writing for an audience that may not know or much care.

I'd personally be squicked as heck, assuming it were played as a straight romance. If the parents insisted, or it was played as being "off" sure, it can go in. But I would run for the hills if it were presented as a desirable pairing.

Coddiwomple · Nov 8, 2018

Thanks for the responses, everyone. Looks like I'm in for a rewrite, because it's a voluntary situation for the two characters. And I'm still blaming Jane Austen for corrupting my youth.

lizmonster · Nov 8, 2018

Coddiwomple said:
Thanks for the responses, everyone. Looks like I'm in for a rewrite, because it's a voluntary situation for the two characters. And I'm still blaming Jane Austen for corrupting my youth.

First-cousin marriage is legal without restriction in 19 US states, and with restrictions in another 8.

Also, given that you're writing SFF, I'd think a post-apocalyptic world might have different rules for these sorts of things. You could always toss in a line or two to explain the shift in cultural taboo.

Roxxsmom · Nov 8, 2018

As Liz said, first cousin marriage is legal in many US states, including my own. Having said that, I don't know anyone who romantically involved with their first cousin, though I've met some couples who are more distant cousins. First cousins share 1/8 of the "variable" gene alleles (the gene alleles that actually vary between humans), as opposed to 1/2 as with full siblings. The odds of harmful recessives lining up is much less than with siblings, unless first cousins marry repeatedly over generations (as happened in some noble families). And of course it's not really an issue if children aren't produced from the union anyway.

For me, much of the "squick" factor depends on the kind of relationship these cousins had growing up. I have some cousins who were nearly as close growing up as siblings, so the thought of romance with them is just as taboo. But if the kids weren't together much as young children, it makes much more sense that they could get sweet on each other as teens or young adults.

There are also books that have dealt with actual sibling incest in ways that comes off as sympathetic, or at least understandable. It's all in the way it's set up. Given that this relationship is only transitional, and not the seminal romance or major focus of the story, I wouldn't worry too much about it putting people off. Even if it bothers some readers, it sounds like the story moves past it pretty quickly.

Coddiwomple · Nov 8, 2018

Roxxsmom said:
As Liz said, first cousin marriage is legal in many US states, including my own. Having said that, I don't know anyone who romantically involved with their first cousin, though I've met some couples who are more distant cousins. First cousins share 1/8 of the "variable" gene alleles (the gene alleles that actually vary between humans), as opposed to 1/2 as with full siblings. The odds of harmful recessives lining up is much less than with siblings, unless first cousins marry repeatedly over generations (as happened in some noble families). And of course it's not really an issue if children aren't produced from the union anyway.

For me, much of the "squick" factor depends on the kind of relationship these cousins had growing up. I have some cousins who were nearly as close growing up as siblings, so the thought of romance with them is just as taboo. But if the kids weren't together much as young children, it makes much more sense that they could get sweet on each other as teens or young adults.

There are also books that have dealt with actual sibling incest in ways that comes off as sympathetic, or at least understandable. It's all in the way it's set up. Given that this relationship is only transitional, and not the seminal romance or major focus of the story, I wouldn't worry too much about it putting people off. Even if it bothers some readers, it sounds like the story moves past it pretty quickly.

In this world, the population is set up with default birth control and in order to have it reversed the partners need to pass a genetic compatibility test. That's part of the reason I thought a cousin pair-up would be less of an issue. Plus, the two characters are unaware of each others' existence until they meet as teenagers. The relationship the two characters have is an important part of the story, but it's only romantic for a short time, and not intensely at that.

I'm thinking I can rewrite to make them less related — have them share the same great-grandfather. Any thoughts on whether that would reduce the "ew" factor enough, given the context and setting?

EvilPenguin · Nov 8, 2018

Personally, I think if they didn't even know each other until they were teenagers, then it wouldn't really seem like they were cousins. And in that type of setting, it's a world-building trait. It just shows that this new society doesn't care about inbreeding, much like no one cared about it in the past.

I definitely think there are some people that are a little too sensitive about these types of subjects in fiction, but as someone who read and loved Forbidden by Tabitha Suzuma, your situation doesn't even register on my "ew" radar.

My advice would be to find a few more critique partners, or post a snippet in SYW, and get some more opinions on the relationship.

shadowsminder · Nov 8, 2018

Siblings and half-siblings are squicky. Fictional cousins who didn't grew up as close as siblings, who are nobles, and whose culture isn't making a fuss about the relationship...? That's not a deal breaker.

KBooks · Nov 8, 2018

For me, making it great-grandfather (and having them never meet until they are teens) makes it better.

kmarcks · Nov 8, 2018

It seemed to work out okay for Margaret Mitchell.

aceafer · Nov 10, 2018

Worked out very well for Meg Rosoff too - this is something that happens in How I Live Now and they even made a movie out of that. So I don't think it's a total dealbreaker.

Roxxsmom · Nov 10, 2018

Coddiwomple said:
In this world, the population is set up with default birth control and in order to have it reversed the partners need to pass a genetic compatibility test. That's part of the reason I thought a cousin pair-up would be less of an issue. Plus, the two characters are unaware of each others' existence until they meet as teenagers. The relationship the two characters have is an important part of the story, but it's only romantic for a short time, and not intensely at that.

I'm thinking I can rewrite to make them less related — have them share the same great-grandfather. Any thoughts on whether that would reduce the "ew" factor enough, given the context and setting?

You can certainly make them second cousins or greater too. Second cousins are children who share a great grandparent. Or, to put it another way, they are the children of two first cousins.

A first-cousin once removed is another possibility. That would be the child of a first cousin's relationship to you. There is often and age gap, but not always.

I've run across numerous cousin marriages in historical fiction. It often happened to keep property in the family, or because for royalty or nobility it was sometimes hard tio find someone who was a "peer." Sometimes two cousins simply fall in love, though. It's hard to see what might be squicky in a story until one is actually reading it, though.

DancingMaenid · Nov 12, 2018

Honestly, it wouldn't bother me at all. But I may be biased--I don't know most of my cousins, and I don't really feel any familial connection to them.

But if you wanted to make it a little more distanced, making them second cousins would do it, I think.

veinglory · Nov 12, 2018

I know several people married to their cousins, including first cousins, so I guess I am used to it. But it looks like the issue will be distracting for many people.

neandermagnon · Nov 12, 2018

I wouldn't have a problem with it. As mentioned by Roxxsmom it's different if they grew up together and had that more-like-siblings-than-cousins kind of bond, but if they didn't know each other before then it's more believable they'd fall in love and it won't come across as weird.

In the UK cousin marriage is legal but considered by some to be a little bit weird and better avoided for genetic reasons. Not on a level that's worth getting outraged about though. We all know the royal family married cousins (and some got haemophilia as a result... plus there were some odd-looking European monarchs over the years). But if it's good enough for Queen Victoria...

WeaselFire · Nov 12, 2018

Worked for Jerry Lee Lewis.

Jeff

muse · Nov 15, 2018

Wouldn't bother me in the slightest - I'm actually married to my 2nd cousin. :greenie

Roxxsmom · Nov 15, 2018

This thread made me think a bit. It's common for writers to poll people in writing forums as per the plausibility or acceptability of a plot element. It's really hard to judge how something might go over when it's mentioned in an abstract way like this, because the way the element is presented and its role in the story are everything when it comes to reader response. I wouldn't worry too much about this, honestly. If you think the story is best served by a pair of cousins having a romance, then you should write it that way.

Readers tend to accept story elements that make sense to the characters in the context of their cultural norms and personal experiences. Otherwise it would be impossible to write works of historical or fantasy fiction set in societies with different norms and values from our own.

A.P.M. · Nov 15, 2018

Coddiwomple said:
In this world, the population is set up with default birth control and in order to have it reversed the partners need to pass a genetic compatibility test. That's part of the reason I thought a cousin pair-up would be less of an issue. Plus, the two characters are unaware of each others' existence until they meet as teenagers. The relationship the two characters have is an important part of the story, but it's only romantic for a short time, and not intensely at that.

I'm thinking I can rewrite to make them less related — have them share the same great-grandfather. Any thoughts on whether that would reduce the "ew" factor enough, given the context and setting?

I'm a bit biased coming from a huge, close-knit family who all know and communicate with each other, cousins and second-cousins included, but any sort of incest squicks me way, WAY out. It also doesn't make sense to me from a world-building perspective. If the point of the compatibility test is to ensure health of offspring, genetic similarity would be a reason for them NOT to be paired, not a reason for them to be.

It's entirely possible that handled well it will be fine, and at worst it could be something that people will be able to overlook in favor of your plot and characters if they don't like it. That said, given the amount of "marrying your cousin = dumb and inbred" jokes I hear from people both old and young, I personally don't think this is something that would go over well. If I heard about the "really good fantasy book but it has a cousin romance" I wouldn't read it.

Michael Myers · Nov 15, 2018

When I was a young teenager there existed a spark between myself and the daughter of the woman who married an uncle of mine. The fact only amused my direct blood first cousins. Still, we all kept it secret until the spark fizzled out.

Roxxsmom · Nov 15, 2018

Michael Myers said:
When I was a young teenager there existed a spark between myself and the daughter of the woman who married an uncle of mine. The fact only amused my direct blood first cousins. Still, we all kept it secret until the spark fizzled out.

My father in law quite literally met his second wife (my step mother in law!) at a family reunion. They are, however, not blood relatives themselves, simply relatives of distant cousins by marriage or something like that. Still, there are occasional jokes about going to family reunions to get dates.

Cousins as love interests in a fantasy setting - too squicky?

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