Character driven / plotting

Patch17 said:

Hello all

I don't know if I should even be asking this as an either / or question, but I am interested in people's views on characters driving stories or thorough plotting.

For me I have a couple of characters I've done profiles of, I have a setting and an opening scene. A very vague idea of where the story could go, but not much more.

I think I like the idea of really getting to know my characters intimately, and seeing where they take the story. However I have had advice before that thorough plotting is really a way to judge if your idea could become a novel and supports the writing of it. Which I kinda get as well.

Any thoughts?

Cheers

Click to expand...

Ah, grasshopper - you've chanced on the great plotting vs pantsing divide. Only you can answer that.

(For myself, it's pantsing. Pantsing pantsing all the way.)

IMO, Character > All Else.

If making your plot work requires forcing round characters into square holes, the problem isn't with your characters. While the plot can certainly shape the characters over the course of the story as they react to and grow from their experiences, ultimately the it's the characters who are in control and drive the plot forward with the choices they make. And sometimes that may mean your plot taking left turns you didn't see coming (for example, in Gyldeneage I have a character who I intended to be a long-term antagonist over the course of the entire three-volume series, only to realize that the decisions he makes frankly made it impossible for him to last through the first book before getting himself killed). It's then up to you to adjust the plot to steer it back on course (in my case, I have another character who can fill the same role in the latter two books, and who frankly makes more sense in it, anyway).

I really, really admire writers who can tell their characters exactly what to do, and where to go, and know it all ahead of time.

Sadly, that's not me. Or happily, I don't know. I usually get what you have. A character or two, a setting, and a dim view of the immediate path ahead of them. Maybe some idea clouds on the horizon.

For now, though, it's been enough to carry me through an entire book, and several new, interesting (to me) projects.

You should get those characters moving, and see what they have to say. Maybe you'll get it all at once, or maybe they'll dole it out bit-by-bit to the very end. Even if you don't get the word count you hoped for, you'd have still gotten to know them.

Best of luck with it.

Patch17 said:

I think I like the idea of really getting to know my characters intimately, and seeing where they take the story. However I have had advice before that thorough plotting is really a way to judge if your idea could become a novel and supports the writing of it.

Click to expand...

Welcome to AW, you'll fit right in here.

Honestly, I do different things for different stories. The most recent short I wrote was entirely character driven. He was an interesting asshole, and he made the story complex, depthful, and interesting (and awful. He was awful.) I'm also working on a novel length work at the same time. That story is plot driven.

I started off as a character driven author. I have since learned plot driven writing. At this point in my writing, I can do either-or. The stories are still well told, no matter how they sprouted.

Above all else, you need to find a system that works for you. Neither way is wrong. It all boils down to what produces better results for you.

Hey there,

I'm on the character-driven side of things myself; sure, I can lay out an interesting, complex plot for a book, but if I complete a full outline, my desire to write the book just dies. I find it much more interesting to start with a couple characters, a situation, and write and see what happens. Sure, I'll need to go back later to trim out the stuff that turned out not to be part of the story and shape and hone the stuff that did . . . but that's all revision. For the writing itself, half the time I can only see a scene or two ahead, with maybe a vague idea of the bigger picture of where things are going (at least until I'm well into the book). That's what works for me, and it's (thus far) the only approach that works for me. It's also the one I most enjoy.

Others are the exact opposite. They want--or need--to lay out a full outline before they can make any headway on a story.

Both are okay, as are all the variations in between. People are different. Try whichever approach appeals to you naturally, and see what works for you. I wouldn't worry too much about what people tell you you're "supposed" to do. (I was taught that outlining was absolutely the "right" way to do things, and struggled with the fact that it didn't work for me until I read Stephen King's On Writing and found out he writes a lot like I do. Which was an epiphany at the time: Oh! There's not just one "right" way to write!)

If character-driven sounds fun to you, try it. If you end up feeling stuck and lost and like there's no coherent plot, then try outlining instead and see if that helps. Experiment.

I don't plan the exact and entire plot at the start, but I write romance, so I know what's going to happen in the end - the couple will get together and be happy.

With that in mind, I have two kinds of outlines/plot frameworks. For the "near chapters", the ones I'll be writing today or tomorrow, I have to jot down in detail what's going to happen. Before I start writing, I need to know that this is the picnic scene and they're going to try to talk about what happened two years ago, but it's probably going to make matters worse.

With the "far chapters", things are more nebulous. There are certain conversations and confrontations that will happen, but I don't have the exact outline sketched out yet. That's fine, because those are far chapters. Once they're near chapters, I'll plan the scenes out.

My method, works for me. Use whatever suits you.

Every book is character driven. You can write a novel without a plot (though whether it will sell or be any good, who knows...) but you cannot write a novel without characters.

I would also say that the debate is a false dichotomy. Most people are a muddle of various traits and approaches.


Both require, and benefit from, improvement gained through experience. I think there is sometimes an assumption from plotters that an outline can "shortcut" the process of writing, but an outline is only as good as your planning ability, and when you're new your outlines will be the product of inexperience. As you write more, your outlines will be better (if you're more plot-aligned) and likewise, if you're a pantser your intuition will need less "jumping around" to land on its feet.

Harlequin said:

I would also say that the debate is a false dichotomy. Most people are a muddle of various traits and approaches.
.

Click to expand...

This ^

I used to be a pantser back when I wrote huge, sprawling fanfiction stories. But when I came to turn one of them into a publishable novel to submit to an agent, which involved two complete rewrites, I became a convert to plotting. Now I can't even start to write until I have an outline of the main plot and a good idea of how the sub plots fit into it, where the turn and the climax are etc. That doesn't mean it always turn out as I expect, but I have a framework.

Within that framework I have my characters running amok and causing chaos, as characters do. Having written this story over the last 15 years I know my characters very well, however they still manage to surprise me sometimes.

For example, last night I realised that in order to get back the woman he loves, my MC will agree to something I never would have expected such a hetro alpha male to do - he acquiesces to the sexual advances of another man. This man happens to be the pharaoh, so turning him down is kinda like spurning god, and likely to result in some form of horrible execution, so if he wants to stay in favour it's not like he really has a great deal of choice. Plus, he really really wants to rescue his girl. And he doesn't even think he will have to go through with it anyway, since he half expects to die in the rescue attempt. But the fact that he is the very last character I would ever have thought to make that decision shows that sometimes, they know a thing or two that you don't.

Also it means I'm gonna have to rewrite a hella chunk of the main plot, and really write the crap outta this plot line to make it work...

Patch17 said:

Hello all

I don't know if I should even be asking this as an either / or question, but I am interested in people's views on characters driving stories or thorough plotting.

For me I have a couple of characters I've done profiles of, I have a setting and an opening scene. A very vague idea of where the story could go, but not much more.

I think I like the idea of really getting to know my characters intimately, and seeing where they take the story. However I have had advice before that thorough plotting is really a way to judge if your idea could become a novel and supports the writing of it. Which I kinda get as well.

Any thoughts?

Cheers

Click to expand...

Follow whichever route you fancy but, whichever route you follow, unless you follow it to the end you will never know the answer or which model suits you.

Patch17 said:

I don't know if I should even be asking this as an either / or question, but I am interested in people's views on characters driving stories or thorough plotting.

Click to expand...

It's not an either or, and I tend to think of character-driven vs. plot-driven as descriptions of the end product more than the process. A plot driven story is like a mystery novel. Of course it helps to have a unique character, but the reader wants to play along with solving the mystery. A character-driven story is all about putting characters in situations that will reveal and develop their character. They may not ever resolve any external conflict.

For me I have a couple of characters I've done profiles of, I have a setting and an opening scene. A very vague idea of where the story could go, but not much more.

Click to expand...

I have my doubts about these character profiles. A character is not a set of attributes. I think the best way to get to know a character is to jump in and write a scene with them.

However I have had advice before that thorough plotting is really a way to judge if your idea could become a novel and supports the writing of it.

Click to expand...

I agree it supports the writing, but I don't know if judging your ideas is even a good idea. Seems like you could potentially reject some good stories and at worst you could convince yourself not to write at all. Just write it. Plot first if that's your thing, but pick an idea and write it.

I do it pretty much as Merian. Everything is outlined—the near chapters are outlined in detail.

morngnstar said:

I agree it supports the writing, but I don't know if judging your ideas is even a good idea. Seems like you could potentially reject some good stories and at worst you could convince yourself not to write at all. Just write it. Plot first if that's your thing, but pick an idea and write it.

Click to expand...

From an artistic point of view you are probably right: the worst is not to write at all. However my bent of mind is just too practical for me to agree with this. As much as I enjoy writing, there are also other things I could be doing with my life, and a lot of them might fairly be said to be more productive. Do I really want to devote years and endless hours of my life and end up with a steaming pile of you-know-what that no one wants to read? For me, outlining and plotting is just prudent.

Writing is a crazy thing. A tempting mistress but she brings her whip and chains with her. I do what I can to keep keep my sanity. Of course I may still end up with a steaming pile .. but I reckon it helps my odds.

JustWriteMike said:

From an artistic point of view you are probably right: the worst is not to write at all. However my bent of mind is just too practical for me to agree with this. As much as I enjoy writing, there are also other things I could be doing with my life, and a lot of them might fairly be said to be more productive. Do I really want to devote years and endless hours of my life and end up with a steaming pile of you-know-what that no one wants to read?

Click to expand...

1. If you enjoy writing, this is not a bad outcome.

2. It's widely rumored that first books rarely sell. So your best bet is to get a steaming pile out of the way, and it's even better if you don't waste your best idea on it. But if you do waste your best idea, that's also fine because the main thing is to just write.

Some answers here are about plotting vs pantsing and others are about plot-driven vs character driven. Which are different things . Either way, there's nothing that says plotting can't be about following your character's wishes and inclinations etc. Plotting doesn't have to force your character into doing things they "don't want" to do. So yeah, do it the way you feel comfortable with. Some people write themselves in to a corner if they just try to "see" where the character is going. Sometimes if you just follow a character around you may end up with a 300 000 word manuscript. Experiment for yourself, see which method works. Anything can become a novel but if you don't plot in advance the process usually takes longer

Curlz said:

Anything can become a novel but if you don't plot in advance the process usually takes longer

Click to expand...

This is very true - for me, anyway. I tried plotting for my third novel, and had a finished first draft in 14 months. It wasn't a fun 14 months though, and I wouldn't do it again. (14 months, just so you know, is AMAZINGLY SWIFT for me. But I couldn't summon the interest to start editing it, so I trunked it. Actually - I didn't even trunk it - I just chucked it.)

ETA: There's nothing to learn from this post ^ I'm just musing while the coffee heats up. Pantsing, just to be clear, does not, by itself, lead to better novels than plotting. It's just more fun - for me, anyway.

As a reader - if I don't care about the characters then I'm not invested enough to care how the story turns out.

First ms took a year and a half and still isnt done. Second ms took me seven months, almost exactly. Both pantsed. The difference between them was scope, complexity, my experience (second ms was way simpler, and I had gotten a bit better.)

But that's just more useless anecdata. I don't personally think there is a link between method and finishing time, that doesnt make sense to me logically, but I guess I would be biased, and would say that.

indianroads said:

As a reader - if I don't care about the characters then I'm not invested enough to care how the story turns out.

Click to expand...

As the writer of that chucked novel, I couldn't agree with you more. I was just - blah. Some made up stuff happened to some made up characters and so what? It was a book that had no value for me at all, because it was written at the direction of a non-writing non-reader who was nonetheless male and knew exactly how one was supposed to write books and kept explaining it to me until I thought I'd either have to hit him over the head with a brick (this is illegal - I checked) or try it his way. I tried it his way, but I do have a prominently-placed brick on my desk now, just to remind myself there are other options.

mccardey said:

As the writer of that chucked novel, I couldn't agree with you more. I was just - blah. Some made up stuff happened to some made up characters and so what? It was a book that had no value for me at all, because it was written at the direction of a non-writing non-reader who was nonetheless male and knew exactly how one was supposed to write books and kept explaining it to me until I thought I'd either have to hit him over the head with a brick (this is illegal - I checked) or try it his way. I tried it his way, but I do have a prominently-placed brick on my desk now, just to remind myself there are other options.

Click to expand...

I on the other hand have to plot it out before hand because my mind has a way of wandering off and getting lost.

My first novel (written back in the 1980's on a UNIX system using the VI editor) was entirely pantsed, and written first person present tense. It ended up being a 250K word door stop that wandered like a drunk on a week long bender that had decided to take acid just for kicks.

morngnstar said:

1. If you enjoy writing, this is not a bad outcome.

2. It's widely rumored that first books rarely sell. So your best bet is to get a steaming pile out of the way, and it's even better if you don't waste your best idea on it. But if you do waste your best idea, that's also fine because the main thing is to just write.

Click to expand...

I agree very much with the above, apart from the bit about wasting your best idea. If you use your best idea and write a novel and it turns out to be a steaming pile of excrement you can always rewrite it. Or take the same basic idea and start again from scratch (same idea, new characters, new setting, new plot - whatever it needs to be better this time around).

I've written a lot of crap novels. I enjoyed writing them. I would not want to have not written them because the process of writing them has given me experience and developed my skills. I'm now having a go at writing for publication. Also, none of my crap novels were 100% crap. They had their great points and they also had their catastrophic weaknesses. If I was so inclined, I could go back an rewrite and edit them into much better shape. Though I feel that my effort's better spent writing new novels, so that's what I'm doing. Except both my current WIPs are rewrites of novels I wrote recently.

A lot of new writers put themselves under way too much pressure to get everything right first time. That's an illogical way to think because writing's not a performing art. You get unlimited rewrites and edits and unlimited goes at writing another one.

indianroads said:

I on the other hand have to plot it out before hand because my mind has a way of wandering off and getting lost.

My first novel (written back in the 1980's on a UNIX system using the VI editor) was entirely pantsed, and written first person present tense. It ended up being a 250K word door stop that wandered like a drunk on a week long bender that had decided to take acid just for kicks.

Click to expand...

LOL sounds like some of the stuff I've written. My first novel didn't even have paragraphs (I was twelve when I started writing). My greatest achievement as a teenager was to write a novel at age 13 that would've had an 18 certificate if anyone was insane enough to try to make it into a film. I also learned how to do paragraphs.

Patch17 said:

However I have had advice before that thorough plotting is really a way to judge if your idea could become a novel and supports the writing of it.

Click to expand...

Knowing which ideas *you* can write a novel from comes with experience, not a specific technique. Ideas can start as a tiny sentence, and later be boiled down to a short sentence, it's what you do with the idea that determines novelability. (Harry Potter: Boy goes to wizarding school. Could be a 7-book series, could be a haiku...)

As far as plotting vs pantsing, one *IS* better than the other. It's the one that works for you, and your story. I'm 90% pantser, but I have a novel I plotted ahead of time and it worked well for that project. You'll produce your best work if you work WITH your own personal writing style.

Curlz said:

Anything can become a novel but if you don't plot in advance the process usually takes longer

Click to expand...

I would disagree with this, only because the time you spend plotting *plus* writing the first draft is probably very close to the time it takes to pants a first draft. I'm speaking from my own experience (since "how long does it take to write a first draft" is very much a "how long is a piece of string" question), and when I plotted out a novel, I was able to zip through the first draft. All the discovery was already done in the plotting phase. Total time: about 2 months. My other novels without plotting? First draft takes about 2 months. So for me, plotting/discovery + first draft = plotting/discovery during first draft.

indianroads said:

. . . (written back in the 1980's on a UNIX system using the VI editor) . . .

Click to expand...

And probably formatted using troff?

Patch17 said:

I am interested in people's views on characters driving stories or thorough plotting.

Click to expand...

I think what you're really asking is not centered on character-driven vs plot-driven, but whether it's better to discover the story as you write or to plan it out in advance. The answer is whichever works best for you.

I've always thought that the differentiation between character-drive and plot-driven is, or should be, a false one. Ideally, all stories will be character driven, no matter how they're written. After all, the story is about what the characters do, why they do it, and what it costs them.

I have read the occasional story (usually a thriller) where characters are entirely replaceable and forgettable, existing as nothing but types and widgets to be inserted in the stories like gears to turn the plot wheels. I would imagine this approach comes about because the writer was intent on having a story where x, y, and z happens, regardless of who caused it to happen or why.

That's what I'd call a plot-driven novel. I don't personally regard that as a desirable goal in writing a story, but tastes vary and there seem to be plenty of readers for those types of books.

Carrie in PA said:

I would disagree with this, only because the time you spend plotting *plus* writing the first draft is probably very close to the time it takes to pants a first draft. I'm speaking from my own experience (since "how long does it take to write a first draft" is very much a "how long is a piece of string" question), and when I plotted out a novel, I was able to zip through the first draft. All the discovery was already done in the plotting phase. Total time: about 2 months. My other novels without plotting? First draft takes about 2 months. So for me, plotting/discovery + first draft = plotting/discovery during first draft.

Click to expand...

The only caveat I would add to that is, if you pants it, and after those two months your story goes way off the rails or you decide you'd rather go in a different direction, you've lost a lot of that time. But I'm saying that as a plotter, so I'm probably biased

BethS said:

I have read the occasional story (usually a thriller) where characters are entirely replaceable and forgettable, existing as nothing but types and widgets to be inserted in the stories like gears to turn the plot wheels. I would imagine this approach comes about because the writer was intent on having a story where x, y, and z happens, regardless of who caused it to happen or why.

That's what I'd call a plot-driven novel. I don't personally regard that as a desirable goal in writing a story, but tastes vary and there seem to be plenty of readers for those types of books.

Click to expand...

I'm asking as a total amateur, but isn't that basically the idea behind mysteries, and maybe even books like Da Vinci code that was just a big chase scene with puzzle solving? Maybe even romance novels to some degree? It seems like only in the past few decades that even sci-fi and fantasy are expected to have strong characters, whereas a while back you could get by with shiny new things and dragons. I'm probably wrong though