Character driven / plotting

I don't think it's an either/or proposition. Characters make choices, and those choices will push the plot in certain directions. Likewise, things sometimes happen from outside of the characters, and they are forced to react to these events in ways that make sense and keep the story moving forward. I'm guessing most stories are a blend of both, though some may fall more at one end or the other of the spectrum.

Toto Too said:

It seems like only in the past few decades that even sci-fi and fantasy are expected to have strong characters, whereas a while back you could get by with shiny new things and dragons. I'm probably wrong though

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You're not wrong. When fantasy was a new (relatively new, post-Tolkien) and scarce commodity and publishers were hungry for it, there's a lot that got published that would never get a look today. Fortunately, the quality of books has improved. Plus, markets and trends change, too.

isn't that basically the idea behind mysteries, and maybe even books like Da Vinci code that was just a big chase scene with puzzle solving? Maybe even romance novels to some degree? ​

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The Da Vinci Code does come to mind. And others like it. Characters do what they need to do to make the plot work but otherwise remain undeveloped and often unmemorable.

I'm not a big mystery reader, so it may be you're right that some come across that way as well, but I think there are mysteries out there where the characters are a big part of why readers read them. Louise Penny's Inspector Gamache series comes to mind. And there are others. Character-centered mysteries are becoming more of a thing now, I think.

Romance novels are written to a particular form. They're like sonnets in that respect. With either of them, you can't violate the form, but what a writer does within the constraints of that form can be flat and formulaic or compelling and original. I.e., they can be character-driven or mostly plot-driven. I've heard of one romance author who has someone else write the sex scenes with generic, fill-in characters, and she simply plugs the right names in when it's time. Which doesn't speak well of the individuality of the characters, much less of the sex scene.

Noooo, I stand firm on the mysteries one.

Something I love about the crime/mystery drama is that it often hinges on believable characters. You have to buy into the detective, and his particular set of quirks. And you have to buy into the motivations of the characters, because often they behave in irrational ways that have to be explained through intricate personality study.

Romance is ALL about characters. The combination of traits from person X and person Y. If romance was about plot, no one would read it, because romance plots are pretty uniform (sorry) but there are literally endless personalities to encounter, and that's the big draw imo. There will be some books which are formulaic, but I would say there are formulaic books in every genre.

Mystery novels in particular were great for showing me how to handle a lot of elements in SFF. The way in which mysteries are unpacked is very similar to how good worldbuilding is written (as a gradual mystery that unfolds for the reader, rather than an info dump that spoils the suspense). The close character studies were also useful.

I was flipping through some old Jack Vance novels recently. One of them started with 2 straight pages of upfront info dump. No pretense, just HERE IS THE HISTORY UP TILL NOW AND ALSO HOW SOCIETY WORKS, K? followed by story. One thing that really struck me was how slim the novel was; I suspect this is largely down to the fact that he didn't have to twist himself backwards trying to work in that information in a naturalistic way, and simply gallivanted ahead with the story portion of the novel. Otoh, I found the whole info dump very boring, and the novel somewhat lacking in interest compared to some of his other work, so I wasn't exactly enthralled by this approach.

A lot of older SFF does hinge on ideas, but even then the SFF which took care with its characters stood the test of time pretty well, too. (Like Michael Moorcock's "Eternal Champion" stuff and Zelazny's Amber novels.)

Beth and Harlequin, thank you so much for the info and perspectives

Whoops, and Roxxsmom too! You slipped a post in there I didn't see

Harlequin said:

Something I love about the crime/mystery drama is that it often hinges on believable characters. You have to buy into the detective, and his particular set of quirks. And you have to buy into the motivations of the characters, because often they behave in irrational ways that have to be explained through intricate personality study.

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I totally agree. For me, mysteries are all about the detective / team doing the solving, not the actual mystery being solved. Like Poirot - never particularly bothered about the whodunnit, but watching him arrive at that conclusion is what's fascinating. And Amelia Peabody mysteries would be nothing without our sassy Victorian adventurer and her quick wit and sharp tongue. The lasting impression of the novel is of those characters, not the details of the plot.

It's also the reason I watch police procedurals and detective shows like Law and Order, Castle, Chicago PD, Criminal Minds, etc - couldn't care less about the crime / criminal of the week, just want to check in with the characters and see what they're up to

Harlequin said:

Romance is ALL about characters. The combination of traits from person X and person Y. If romance was about plot, no one would read it, because romance plots are pretty uniform (sorry) but there are literally endless personalities to encounter, and that's the big draw imo.

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Ditto. Romance is well known for having the tropiest and most formulaic plots of any genre, but it's also the biggest selling genre - because people will gladly lap up the same old story told with new characters in different settings if the characters are compelling and the chemistry between them crackles off the page. I know I do

Speaking as an absolute beginner I'm finding John Trubys book really helpful "Anatomy of Story".
I had a rough idea for a plot but the characters were elusive for me.
In his book he describes how a characters wants and needs are vitally important.
I went back to my idea and created conflicts with the three major characters roughly using his system.
After doing this, the story grew even better, the conflicts and desires of each character has helped create a much more logical, dynamic story.
More complexity emerged and more story became possible.
Just have to write the damn thing now!

Harlequin said:

Romance is ALL about characters.

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It certainly should be. But I've read some where the characters are little more than puppets created to fit the plot. They don't behave in reasonable or believable ways.

I once was writing something that I thought would be a short story but in the final paragraph, one of the characters said something that ended up turning it into a novella. It was a total surprise to me.

Character and plot are intimately intertwined. Plot should be driven by character--what would these people do based on who they are? And character should be driven by plot--what happens to a person changes who they are and the choices they make.

angeliz2k said:

Character and plot are intimately intertwined. Plot should be driven by character--what would these people do based on who they are? And character should be driven by plot--what happens to a person changes who they are and the choices they make.

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That was nicely put. Agree a bazillion percent.

angeliz2k said:

Character and plot are intimately intertwined. Plot should be driven by character--what would these people do based on who they are? And character should be driven by plot--what happens to a person changes who they are and the choices they make.

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Very true.

Patch17 said:

Hello all

I don't know if I should even be asking this as an either / or question, but I am interested in people's views on characters driving stories or thorough plotting.

For me I have a couple of characters I've done profiles of, I have a setting and an opening scene. A very vague idea of where the story could go, but not much more.

I think I like the idea of really getting to know my characters intimately, and seeing where they take the story. However I have had advice before that thorough plotting is really a way to judge if your idea could become a novel and supports the writing of it. Which I kinda get as well.

Any thoughts?

Cheers

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You use the plot to draw out your characters. They don't just remain as profiles. Easiest to think of them changing and the plot encourages that change.