Sooo, is it sexist to give female characters a different, "feminine" Hero's Journey... or not to?

"Masculine" and "feminine" are socially defined categories that are fully dependent on time and place. Your best move is to write your protagonist as a fully realized character--a person--and not worry about whether the story fits any form of feminine archetype. After all, there is no one "feminine experience." If a person identifies as female then that person's experience is feminine, even if it falls into traditionally a masculine stereotype.

I like the concept but not the name -- why not just call it the "Inner Hero's Journey"? It solves the most irritating factors, for me, which are:
* Femme heroes are easily capable of every step of the Hero's Journey
* Yeap, having my 'hero's journey' be an inner exploration of self instead of going out to bash monsters would royally tick me off.
* Dudes should get to have their own inner journey books too, I'd love to see more dude stories involving them thinking about their own masculinity and maybe thinking about how their culture and upbringing changes them.
* 'Hero' is a gender-neutral term already, darnit. And it's far more inclusive than making a hero/heroine division because it includes my beloved non-binary friends in the mix.

The idea isn't sexist, imo, but it enforces certain divisions that I think cause more harm than good.

Full disclosure: I haven't read The Heroine's Journey or The Virgin's Promise (and while I might pick up the first one, the second one's title would have me running a mile).

LittlePinto said:

"Masculine" and "feminine" are socially defined categories that are fully dependent on time and place. Your best move is to write your protagonist as a fully realized character--a person--and not worry about whether the story fits any form of feminine archetype. After all, there is no one "feminine experience." If a person identifies as female then that person's experience is feminine, even if it falls into traditionally a masculine stereotype.

Click to expand...

+1

Beware of getting hung up on "Hero's/Heroine's Journey" and other pre-structured ideas of what storytelling is supposed to be. Those breakdowns can help if you're having trouble with your plot or some such issue, but they also can hold you back if taken too literally as The Way You Have To Write.

I'd heard of the Heroine's Journey but never really looked into it until now. The first stage is "Separation from the Feminine" and I can't get my head around what that even means in any sort of story other than "woman wants to go fight/do other stereotypically-masculine thing". Almost everything I write has female protagonists, but none of the stories have anything I'd consider close to "Separation from the Feminine".

I'd never heard of the Virgin's Promise, which was harder to find information online for. I have one story with a female protagonist that does fit with the Virgin's Promise for about 2/3rds, but the last third of the Virgin's Promise doesn't quite match up, though maybe if you swap the steps around it does.

Personally, I don't think about any sort of "monomyth" or template like the Hero's Journey when I write. But I think "monomyths" work because the definitions of each stage can be interpreted quite loosely. The story I mentioned above with the Virgin's Promise can match up with the Hero's Journey, and it's not a "masculine" story by any means. There might be something to the Virgin's Promise (the site I looked it up on did note that the Virgin's Promise can apply to a male character, just as a female character can fill the Hero's Journey), but I'm not sold on the Heroine's Journey really fitting a story that doesn't play on "masculine" and "feminine" roles.

TBH I'm one of those people with a list of problems with HJ, but I'm not here to knock it as a tool. But, like with Campbell's HJ, the Feminine Heroes Journey sounds like a fairly individual, perhaps idiosyncratic, approach to storytelling (and, AFAICT, Jungian philosophy). I can't really say if I agree with the FHJ or not w/o knowing more, my instinct would be that perhaps....*perhaps* there's something worth exploring about it, but that the concept of gender-differentiated Hero's Journeys sets me on edge.

SwallowFeather said:

Over the past few years I've become a Hero's Journey enthusiast. No, it doesn't fit every story, but it fits the type of stories I'm currently telling beautifully. Now, I've heard from some corners of the internet that the traditional Hero's Journey is too masculine and that women have their own version. I'm aware of books like The Heroine's Journey and The Virgin's Promise but I haven't read them yet. (This is down to my strict budget and my rural library, not to fear of reading them or anything. I'm afraid I can only order 2 new books right now if I actually need them.) And I'm about to dip my toe into outlining a book with a female protag.

And I'm torn. The idea of a journey that rings truer to the feminine experience sounds great, but I also worry that it's a form of condescension. Bits and pieces I've picked up about FHJ (feminine hero's journey) suggest that it's a process of accepting yourself as a woman and thus more of an inner journey, not something with a noticeable effect on other people. (Whereas the HJ has many inner aspects but ends with bringing back the Elixir as a gift to the community.) So is that good... or is a way of being relegated to a "feminine, inner" sphere while "the real world" remains "a man's world"?

Or do I have it all wrong about what the FHJ actually is??

Click to expand...

If you want to understand the Hero's Journey, spend one of your book slots on The Hero With a Thousand Faces, which is the academic text Hero's Journey comes from. Warning: it is an academic text. You'll learn something, but light reading it ain't.

But Hero's Journey, in its proper context, is an anthropological tool--and arguably not an especially good one at that. It's usefulness in story-telling is debatable. There's some fascinating reading to be done in this area, but a lot of it gets pretty psychological and, if my experience is anything to go by, won't help you write your book any faster. (But fascinating!)

My personal view is you do what you need to get the story out. If something like Hero's Journey or Save the Cat is helping you get plot on the page, then it's doing good. The second it becomes prescriptive or prohibitive, though, it is not doing its job and getting in the way of yours. Your job is to tell the story in the best way possible. There is no template for this, no magic bullet. Do what you feel is right, what you feel will take the story where it needs to go. If your heroine is swigging elixirs and leading hairy Macedons down into caves, well, that sounds pretty readable to me. If she comes to some understanding of herself as a woman in the process, great. If she comes to understand she's a got more in common with the fallen star-gods of Orion and goes off to a higher plane of existence to be with them and Joseph Campbell, more power to her.

Write the book you want to write.

I'd suggest instead thinking of stories you love, especially, but also, stories with female protags.

Outline their "journey." Do this for several different works. I'd suggest several works you love, and one that you hate.

Then think about the patterns. Think about where the patterns shift. Think about what you want for your story.

SwallowFeather said:

Hm, would you link me to where you found an actual outline of "The Virgin's Promise"? I've only found the book, not any summary. (& thank you)

Click to expand...

Here is the most-detailed summary of the Virgin's Promise that I found.

I just read The Virgin's Promise and I found it helpful for thinking through my WIP, which definitely didn't match up with the beats in the Hero's Journey. And as other's have said it's not really about whether you have a man or woman as a protagonist, but if you have a story about a character who stays where they are and transforms themselves and the place -- instead of traveling somewhere to overcome something or someone strange. The book has examples of male characters -- all from movies -- who follow the Virgin Promise arc (i.e., Billy Elliott, Will from About a Boy). And while the author does describe it as more of a feminine journey, that's not really key. It's more of a model of a different kind of story than the Hero's Journey. The story beats may or may not be generative, but I wouldn't worry about it being sexist. I think that comes from execution.

At the risk of being one of those tiresome people who says 'just write a good story and the rest will take care of itself', just write a good story and the rest will take care of itself.

SwallowFeather said:

So is that good... or is a way of being relegated to a "feminine, inner" sphere while "the real world" remains "a man's world"?

Click to expand...

Hero's Journey is not gender-specific. At HJ's core is a character transformation through a series of encounters with an opposition (usually three), ending with a major encounter that will test that transformation. Each encouter results in a small character change with the final challenge being a revelation about the Heroine's inner change.

Examples of HJ movies with a Heroine: Eat Pray Love, Inside Out, Contact, The Queen, Amelie.

-cb

Layla Nahar said:

At the risk of being one of those tiresome people who says 'just write a good story and the rest will take care of itself', just write a good story and the rest will take care of itself.

Click to expand...

You know, if you play guitar there's this thing called the CAGED Method. It's a tool you memorize in order to help you learn the notes of the fretboard. This was always backwards to me. Why would I memorize a method that helps me memorize the fretboard? Why don't I just do step 1: memorize the fretboard?

Just write a good story and the rest will...ah, you know the rest.

I do think the traditional Hero’s Journey is based on very Western, male-oriented ideas. Why? Because it was developed largely by examining patterns in Western histories, myths, and stories about men.

That’s why I think this is great advice:

AW Admin said:

I'd suggest instead thinking of stories you love, especially, but also, stories with female protags.

Outline their "journey." Do this for several different works. I'd suggest several works you love, and one that you hate.

Then think about the patterns. Think about where the patterns shift. Think about what you want for your story.

Click to expand...

I’ve developed my own thoughts about Heroine’s Journeys in the past just by doing this. That’s all these archetypes are: patterns that recur in stories. So you can develop your own ideas of what a Heroine’s Journey is by looking at the stories about women and femmes that matter to you.

I’m not sure how much my own ideas are in line with other writings about Heroine’s Journeys.

I think there is often a conflict between an inner world and an outer world, or a visible world and a secret world, which manifested differently than it typically does in a Hero’s Journey. While in a Hero’s Journey there is “home” and “away from home”, or an ordinary world and a special world, I think this is different from that. While the Hero goes on a journey from one, to the other, and back again, the Heroine must frequently co-exist in both worlds and often must code-switch between them. Where a Hero returns home changed, the Heroine must continue to exist in both worlds, or somehow reconcile the conflict between them.

I think a common trope in Heroine’s Journeys is also an understanding that the world itself is fundamentally flawed or even set up to oppose the heroine. While there will always be an inner journey and realizations about the self, I think the ultimate resolution to a Heroine’s Journey frequently involves changing the rules of the world, or fundamentally changing the world itself.

Anyway, those are just my own thoughts, and what I tend to notice in the kinds of stories I like. I don’t think it’s necessarily useful to think about all of this while writing though. Do whatever is best for your character and story. It can be more fun to come back later and look for common patterns in your own and others’ works.

I think both are valid, and you can choose which one resonates with you, take what you like about both journeys, or invent your own.

The particular heroine's journey as you've described it sounds sexist to me. The idea of not bringing something back to the community reminds me of the patriarchal idea that a woman's role is confined to the home and it's only indirectly through her husband that she has any connection to society.

But I've heard other adaptations of the female hero's journey. One focused on the idea that the hero's journey is a transition from boy to man, and there are only two stages in the hero's life, whereas women have a third stage because of menopause. The third stage is actually characterized by withdrawing from society, but only after having participated in it.

EMaree said:

Yeap, having my 'hero's journey' be an inner exploration of self instead of going out to bash monsters would royally tick me off.

Click to expand...

Bashing monsters is an inner journey. Since monsters don't really exist, it's probably a metaphor. Obviously, in some books, the inner journey is more explicit and less monstery than others, but I suspect most decent books include an element of an inner journey. It wouldn't be a great book if the hero's journey was just, "Tried to fight the monster, got my ass kicked, so I went to the gym and really hammered on my core, and then I was strong enough to beat him." At least the hero should have some inner struggles with courage, self-confidence, willingness to risk herself for others, etc.

Dudes should get to have their own inner journey books too

Click to expand...

Yes, this, and of course we do.

I'd love to see more dude stories involving them thinking about their own masculinity and maybe thinking about how their culture and upbringing changes them.

Click to expand...

I don't see this so much. The male hero doesn't think of his journey as a male journey, just a human journey. This is the bias of the masculine being unmarked (why Ms. Pac-Man has a bow but Pac-Man is naked). I think it would be good to see more stories explicitly focus on the distinct aspects of the male experience and expectations.

SwallowFeather said:

The interesting thing is that my first novel with this same female character contains a strong & almost explicit "separation from the feminine" in the form of the protag fighting her mother's fears so she can take risks and rescue people, which, though she's with a group of women who are rescuing children, she frames inwardly in a rather "masculine" way as "doing something" and "fighting back" (while at the same time she considers the rather crucial caregiving part of the rescue operation "less important" etc.) I haven't plotted it onto the full Heroine's Journey yet.

Click to expand...

Separation from the home and father is a common element in male heroes' journeys. Would that be considered separation from the masculine? I find it a weird concept that separation from the feminine and identification with the masculine would be a core part of a heroine discovering her true self. I do see how separation from society's definition and expectations of femininity would be a core part, but this shouldn't be by embracing the equally constrictive expectations of masculinity instead.

cbenoi1 said:

Hero's Journey is not gender-specific.

Click to expand...

I would say it is both gender and culturally specific. While of course any gender can partake of it, it was distilled from a tradition of mostly western, mostly male authors, writing with the idea of guiding the virtuous life of western male men. There are elements that are applicable to any human, but it is not custom fit for them.

I'm trying to think of a metaphor for this, and what I'm coming up with is a feminist fantasy about a chosen one heroine who inherits the legendary sword, and that's supposed to enable her to complete the quest. It gets the job done to some extent, but she always finds it somewhat clumsy and awkward. In the end she throws away the legendary sword and constructs her own weapon, possibly a labrys because of its ancient Cretan association with female godesses. Feel free to steal this. I'd write it myself but I'm not really a fantasy writer.

kuwisdelu said:

I think there is often a conflict between an inner world and an outer world, or a visible world and a secret world, which manifested differently than it typically does in a Hero’s Journey. While in a Hero’s Journey there is “home” and “away from home”, or an ordinary world and a special world, I think this is different from that. While the Hero goes on a journey from one, to the other, and back again, the Heroine must frequently co-exist in both worlds and often must code-switch between them. Where a Hero returns home changed, the Heroine must continue to exist in both worlds, or somehow reconcile the conflict between them.

Click to expand...

Wow! This is great.

I relate it to the Hegelian idea of thesis - antithesis - synthesis. While the male journey is more about conquering and destroying the old order, your idea is more explicitly about incorporating the new with the old, the true inner self with societal expectations.

I think a common trope in Heroine’s Journeys is also an understanding that the world itself is fundamentally flawed or even set up to oppose the heroine. While there will always be an inner journey and realizations about the self, I think the ultimate resolution to a Heroine’s Journey frequently involves changing the rules of the world, or fundamentally changing the world itself.

Click to expand...

I think this is present in many if not most male heroes' journeys too. The idea is that the ordinary world has been functioning adequately for eons, but some crisis arises that the culture of the ordinary world can't handle. The hero must break to some extent with that culture to overcome the obstacle. The culture will usually offer some resistance to the change, and the hero will experience some period as an outcast. Both journeys have a notion of conflict between the individual and their society, but the male journey usually resolves with a revolution, with the hero's individual ideology replacing society's, whereas yours involves more of a compromise and coexistence. Brilliant!