Advice on "pretty prose" and how important is it?

Heavenlydemonick said:

However, what I struggle with the most is the words themselves. I often find myself telling more than showing or falling into a group of sentences that are all basically "He did this. Then he did that. But he didn't want to think about doing something else." Blah, blah, blah.... Granted, not every sentence is like this, but I definitely feel like they get grouped together in a paragraph when I'm not sure how to balance description and emotion and not include words like "think" or "feel" or "knows". I know a lot of these I'll probably end up fixing during edits, but I fear there are a lot I just don't know how to fix.

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If you know there's something wrong with a passage, it needs to be addressed to the best of your ability before you submit your manuscript. If you don't know how to fix it, you've encountered a learning opportunity. One way to learn is to get feedback from other writers, whether in person or online. For example, here on AW, you could post an excerpt in SYW along with a note saying that you see X, Y, an Z as issues, but you're not sure how to get around them. Reading-to-learn is another method. How do other authors handle similar situations?

Bottom line, don't submit a manuscript that you know has issues.

Heavenlydemonick said:

So, my question is: How important are "pretty prose" for first-time authors wanting to submit to agents? Obviously, I know the novel needs to be grammatically correct and I need to fix as many of these "tell-y" instances as possible, but if there are some paragraphs that I'm struggling to re-word, will it make or break a submission?

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What you submit to an agent should be the best work you can possibly produce. A clunky paragraph here or there (most likely) won't be a deal-breaker if all other aspects of the manuscript shine, but they won't help matters.

Heavenlydemonick said:

I feel like the story itself is what makes a good novel and that it's the editors job to help make the words read well,

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Nope, it's not the editor's job to rewrite what you've written. They'll flag something they feel needs attention, but it's the author's job to supply the fix.

Heavenlydemonick said:

but I know authors have a responsibility to have a good understanding of how to do this, too.

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It's wholly on the author's shoulders to provide the words.

Heavenlydemonick said:

I'm probably over-worrying about this, as I know it's still going to be a while before I stand a chance of getting published, but it's something I can't put out of my mind. Does anyone have any advice for avoiding the "He did this. He did that." kind of sentences? Or any recommendations on books to read about improving the prose themselves? Any advice would be greatly appreciated

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Reading widely is my top recommendation for improving the prose/wording itself. When you read with an eye to learning how other authors do it, oftentimes a-ha! moments happen, but it also seems to rub off as the mind processes and assimilates patterns and cadence and a whole host of subtle aspects. As noted above, getting feedback on problematic passages can be invaluable as well.

Good luck moving forward!

All the best,
Riv

I'm going to put the term "pretty prose" to the side, because that calls to mind a specific style that may or may not be what your story calls for, and/or your style of writing--and what's considered pretty will be individual.

What makes a story a story is the words we choose, and the way we string them together. Otherwise it's a laundry list of he-said, she-said, and-then-this-happened, and meanwhile-back-at-the-batcave.

Think about it. The best novels, the best stories, are the ones where we forget our surroundings and become immersed in characters and setting, when we care about what happens to these characters. It's the writing, the prose, that makes that happen. It's the bottom line when people ask, "is this a story you would read?" It's all in how it's written, the choices you, the author, make.

As for being a first time querier and thinking about this, I'd say it's more important for those who don't have a track record, or stellar sales. People aren't going to buy and read--or recommend to their friends--just because.

I think you first need to decide what you mean by pretty prose.

There are novels where the words and language is a vehicle for the story and get the reader from A to B, and there are novels where the kind of words and the language used and the form is as important as the story (one is not better than the other they just serve different purposes).

Second, as Riv mentioned the editor's job is not to fix or rewrite your novel that needs to be done by you before you submit to agents. Bearing in mind the sheer volume of submissions agents receive each year they will not bother with something that's full of problems that needs fixing.

The way to improve is read, read, read and then write, write and editing, and refine and get feedback, and edit again for as long as it takes, etc...

I hope this helps and you can always post an extract in the SYW sub-forum to get feedback from the people here.

The writing style you use sets the mood for your scene.

Consider describing the scenery on a boat ride down the Amazon. (flowing and opulent)
or
Describe a battle scene between street gang in a big city. (short, choppy and aggressive)

Both instances can be described as 'pretty prose' IMO.

Well done on being sensibly aware of problems in your writing - that will take you most of the way towards fixing them. But I did want to point out that

Heavenlydemonick said:

I feel like the story itself is what makes a good novel and that it's the editors job to help make the words read well

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no, that's not how it works. At best an editor might make suggestions. The actual writing is on the writer - words and all

Heavenlydemonick said:

Does anyone have any advice for avoiding the "He did this. He did that." kind of sentences? Or any recommendations on books to read about improving the prose themselves? Any advice would be greatly appreciated

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I don't know any books about improving the prose, but I'd suggest read, read, read good prose in any genre, in any form. Inhale it, submerge yourself in it, analyse why it works. Make it your own.

Best of luck with it

Heavenlydemonick said:

I can always see the type of writing that I like, but when it comes time for me to put my own words on the page, it never works out as well.

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You're still learning. I know it feels like you've been writing for a long time, but you haven't - it takes each of us a different amount of time to get the hang of it. The fact that you can see issues with your own work is a HUGE accomplishment. Do you know how many people never get that far?

Definitely hit SYW here. You can preface your piece by telling people you know it's got issues, and you're struggling with how to fix them. You'll get a lot of different feedback - some of it will resonate, and some of it won't, but you'll get a good sampling of suggestions. Critique others as well - dissecting other people's work really does help you learn to dissect your own.

Keep reading, keep writing, keep sharing, keep listening, keep revising. You're doing everything right.

mccardey said:

Well done on being sensibly aware of problems in your writing - that will take you most of the way towards fixing them.

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lizmonster said:

You're still learning. I know it feels like you've been writing for a long time, but you haven't - it takes each of us a different amount of time to get the hang of it. The fact that you can see issues with your own work is a HUGE accomplishment. Do you know how many people never get that far?

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+1 to these. Having the discernment to know something isn't working is a huge step in the right direction.

lizmonster said:

Definitely hit SYW here. You can preface your piece by telling people you know it's got issues, and you're struggling with how to fix them. You'll get a lot of different feedback - some of it will resonate, and some of it won't, but you'll get a good sampling of suggestions. Critique others as well - dissecting other people's work really does help you learn to dissect your own.

Keep reading, keep writing, keep sharing, keep listening, keep revising. You're doing everything right.

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Yes! Critiquing others can be eye-opening. Even if you decide not to post your own piece in SYW (though I encourage you to!), consider spending time critiquing as a means of honing your writing skill.

All the best,
Riv

I'll echo others and say that knowing there is a problem is a good part of the way to fixing it. So props on that!

And I feel like I read a lot. Three+ books a month most of the year. I can always see the type of writing that I like, but when it comes time for me to put my own words on the page, it never works out as well. I know that I need to work on my editing skills (I've completed about 4 first drafts for novels and only attempted to edit one of them, which I worked on for 2 years and mostly just tried to re-write the story dozens of times...) But that's definitely my weakness. I get so frustrated when I come across these scenes that I know are wrong, but I can't figure out how to fix them. I have met a couple of people at conferences recently that might be willing to give their feedback, so maybe with the book I'm currently working on, I can get through some of these struggles without throwing the book in the garbage.

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SYW can definitely help you. The other thing I'd recommend, since you mentioned you're already reading a lot . . . when you read, do you ever go back and study how an author is making things work? I've found it incredibly helpful, and while it may at first seem boring (literary analysis doesn't get most people jumping out of their seats), I've actually found it can be a great deal of fun. Not to mention useful. So . . . say you're working on a chase scene, and you just feel like you're writing "He ran. She ran. He rounded the corner. She followed. He felt scared" and it's dead on the page. Go look up some of your favorite chase scenes in books you like. And read them with a really analytical eye.

Is the author using short sentences? Long sentences? Mixing them? What about paragraphs? How's the author using dialogue (if at all)? Check the verbs the author is using. What senses are they drawing on? Do they describe what the character's seeing? Hearing? Smelling? Etc. How are they incorporating those sensations? ("Icy rain stung the back of his neck" is different than "He felt cold.") Where are they using specifics, focusing on details? Where are they zooming out to give you a bigger picture? Are you getting a step-by-step narration of events, or flashes of impressions? How does it affect you and pull you into the world of the story? Where are you seeing simple action ("He ran") versus perception ("Her steps echoed his, only a few paces behind.") versus thought ("He wasn't going to make it.")?

In other words, on a very technical level, how's it all put together?

Don't stop with one scene; read a few. You'll notice different authors use different techniques. There's not one magic formula. But you'll also notice some common trends.

Then go back to your scene, and look at how you can incorporate a few of those techniques.

Like anything, I'd recommend doing this in moderation--and only when you're editing, not when you're initially writing a scene. If you're anything like me, writer brain and editor brain get along together about as well as cats in a bag.

It seems a lot of writers get stuck with the words on the page. That seems to be where you are. You look at the written word, and it looks like it can't be changed or else everything else will fall apart, and you won't be able to put it all back together again. I think the trick is to really, really get into the mindset of seeing those words on that page as mutable. That sentence can change, and it can be put back together again. That paragraph or scene can be pulled apart and put back together again. Keep in mind that there are a million ways to say the same thing. You don't have to stick with the one that's there. You say you get frustrated because you don't know how to fix things. Try different things, different sentence structures and points of view. Even start with a blank page and say, "Okay, what am I really trying to convey here?" Don't allow the words you already wrote to constrain you.

And as a note, "telling" sentences aren't inherently bad. Sometimes you need to keep the story moving without wasting words on that particular action/moment. I'd avoid filtering like "she/he thought " or "he/she felt", though; that can almost always be better.

If I can be honest... I do think it matters. Definitely not as much as writers fear, but as an overall thing... especially given that many agents and editors dabble in writing themselves... yes, elegant and well-constructed prose *can* be a deal-breaker. Here's my reasoning:

• How you shapes your words and sentences aren't just for show. They're not the "wallpaper" of the house--they're the underlying architecture of the house. Your story is built on your words.
• In line with the above, complex concepts usually need more careful sentences (we don't always write all sections with the same care, or at least I don't.) So do heavy emotional scenes. A novel offers more to chew on, and more gut-punch emotional power, if the basic sentence construction is thought-through.
• A novel is easier to read if the underlying rhythm has a strong cadence (one that carries a reader from word to word, sentence to sentence, graf to graf, and eventually chapter to chapter.)
• Stand-out voice continues to be something editors and agents look for. And "voice" is, at its heart, is an author's signature method of stringing words together.
• In a crowded market with many submissions, distinctive voices are more likely to stand out.

I don't think it has to be "natural" in the sense that you can revise and learn and edit. Playing with structure isn't something that needs to be right on the first try (nothing in writing is, tbf), and it's generally better to get everything down on paper than get stuck in a revision loop. But it is definitely worth tackling.


For things that help me: I have found reading poetry very useful, because poetry is designed to be read aloud. It teaches you to play with rhythm and cadence, to test out allegories and unusual descriptions, and to just have fun with language. If you can't find any poetry that you like, I think song lyrics probably fill a similar niche.

Here are my two thoughts. I believe these things add layers to writing, and I think that layers are good. Like an onion. Or a parfait.

1. When you read a book you enjoy, identify what specifically it is about the author's writing that you enjoy.

Example: Some authors fold backstory into almost every paragraph through a dozen different tricks. You don't even realize that is what happening, but once you do, you see that they are doing it all over the place.

His mother used to say the best decisions were made with the heart. It's a trick to provide a snippet of backstory. It also develops character.

Others provide a contradiction, in almost every paragraph. Again, through a dozen different tricks.

Some might see a roadblock; she saw an opportunity. A comment like this develops character but also gives the reader something 'chewy' (i.e. How would I respond to that thing?) and that might keep them reading.

It could be pretty prose you are missing, but it could be some other thing. Read your favorite authors analytically, and I bet you will spot some tricks.

2. An eye-opening comment for me somewhere or other was that there is 'telling' (to various degrees) and 'showing' (to various degrees) and also 'other.' It is the balance of these three that is important.

3. Bonus thought. (I love when my brain volunteers an extra one.) There are more than five senses. If you have been following the advice of incorporating all five senses into your scenes, there might be more. Wrap an awareness of time (She'd be hungry soon) and also personality into the scene--that adds depth to it and a sort of useful realism.

Here are some senses that exceed the standard five and I know I've seen writing blogs about this too somewhere. http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2010/07/humans-have-a-lot-more-than-five-senses/

FWIW, I found James Scott Bell's Revision and Self-Editing for Publication helpful for these sorts of things.

Harlequin said:

For things that help me: I have found reading poetry very useful, because poetry is designed to be read aloud. It teaches you to play with rhythm and cadence, to test out allegories and unusual descriptions, and to just have fun with language. If you can't find any poetry that you like, I think song lyrics probably fill a similar niche.

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Vouch. Prose is a superset of poetry. (Or an overlapping set, or something. Don't hurt me, poets!) Rhythm matters. Sentence length matters. Rhyme and alliteration matter. Overall structure matters. All the same tools matter - and can be under- or over-used.

FWIW, I don't think prose has to be 'pretty' to be good prose - florid, lyrical or literary style prose isn't for everyone. I know I generally don't enjoy reading it, so I don't write it. I like my prose to do the job it's there to do, which is to get plot and character on the page. However, I do want to convey the story in the most engaging way possible, and to capture the emotion and imagery of a scene the way I imagined it when it popped into my head. To do this I might employ the odd stylistic device, such as metaphor or simile, alliteration, onomatopoeia, and if I'm feeling really flashy I might try some polysyndeton or even a bit of anaphora (I studied ancient Greek rhetoric, so... yeah, I guess I like it when words do tricks). But all of that is completely irrelevant if I can't convey what I mean in simple, articulate sentences that flow logically from one to the next to create meaning.

So, I guess my advice would be to work on clarity before elegance, and elegance before cleverness. Prose that achieves all three is in my opinion the best writing there is, pretty or not.

Heavenlydemonick said:

Does anyone have any advice for avoiding the "He did this. He did that." kind of sentences? Or any recommendations on books to read about improving the prose themselves? Any advice would be greatly appreciated

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A similar question was asked here:

https://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?338997-Fancy-Grammar-Syntax-Strategies

You might find some of the advice in that thread to be useful.

To answer your earlier question about what agents expect--what they expect, or at least hope to find, is competent, effective prose. It doesn't have to be lyrical; it does need to have a confident voice or style.

Harlequin said:

For things that help me: I have found reading poetry very useful, because poetry is designed to be read aloud. It teaches you to play with rhythm and cadence, to test out allegories and unusual descriptions, and to just have fun with language.

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Oh, this. I'm convinced that if you want to raise a child to be a writer, this is how you should start. (Although why you would want to raise a child to be a writer is probably something that needs to be discussed in the next session...)

To be fair, I think being able to string together beautiful, aesthetic prose can be a HUGE, HUGE advantage. I say this because I can't do it at all, and I think that's a real black mark against my writing. My writing tends to rely more on dialog, characterization and plot than my ability to eloquently craft language or judicious selection of words, and I think to some, degree, that's had a significant, negative impact on my writing. It took me years me get to a place where people might be willing to overlook that handicap, but I won't say anyone ever forgot about it. My writing is still not as elegant as a lot of people on this forum, and probably never will be, which kind'a guts me, but it is what it is.

I'd say it is possible to still get agented and even trade published without having an amazing command of the language that blows people away with your control and your fluency. But if you write simply and without complexity, you're probably not doing yourself any favors. People that actually KNOW how to write well definitely have a leg up over those of us that don't. I'm always going to be jealous of people that can write with beautiful language because it's such a massive struggle for me to come up with even a few sentences in an entire novel that "sound nice," as opposed to being strictly functional.

Some of the specific issues you're having, like overusing words like "think," are related to point-of-view. When you use language like "he thought" or "he saw," that's called filtering. You're stepping out of the character's head a bit. Sometimes words like that serve a purpose, but it's easy to overdo them when they're not necessary. If you're in a character's POV, you often don't have to say that they saw or thought something. The reader will understand that the events on the page are things that the character sees.

Otherwise, I think it can be helpful to pay attention to rhythm and sentence variation. And again, consider the point of view. I think with regards to "He did this, he did that" prose, the issue can come up when you're presenting a blow-by-blow account of a scene (which may not be the most interesting way to convey events) or when you're trying to flesh out the detail in a scene. Sometimes it helps to choose an action or detail to focus on as opposed to adding g additional ones.

Read.

It seems simple but read widely. Read in your genre and out of it. Read the best; read the worst. But most of all, read critically, with a writer's eye, and make notes about how and why an excellent author is effective, or how and why a poor author is ineffective.

Do you have a critique group? Critiquing the work of others is a great way to find issues that you can't see in your own work. Training your eye to these issues can then be applied to your work when you've taken a break from it and can approach it with fresh eyes.

For me, the words, the way the prose is written, is hugely important. Every word should count and every sentence and its structure should be thoughtful and on purpose. It doesn't mean it always works, but it means you're thinking about every word that's on the page (this can be done in editing, especially if you're the kind of writer who's paralyzed by editing as you go).

As others have said, you're doing all the right things. Keep learning, writing, and most of all keep reading.

Read Lovecraft. It's only short stories, and yet it will instantly improve your prose.

The problem with our more materialistic world is that such flourishes are often seen as ridiculous: But it is easy to adapt your style to our degenerate era...

Gaston

Gaston said:

The problem with our more materialistic world is that such flourishes are often seen as ridiculous: But it is easy to adapt your style to our degenerate era...

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Sorry?