Next time someone tells you they are happy with all the things Trump has done as POTUS

Bookmarking that.

Anyone still supporting the man is entirely proofed against mere facts. Honestly, it’s not worth trying to engage his supporters, online or IRL. It’s like that old saying about pigs, mud, and which one of us enjoys rolling in it.

True to form.

-cb

I came up against the fact-proof Trump voter in a kind of random way yesterday. I was taking a bus into town to pick up my new glasses. (Parking near the optician's office is close to impossible, so I never drive there.) The bus got stuck behind a car accident in a tunnel and when the driver announced we'd be stuck for at least 15 minutes, the older woman sitting next to me said, "I hope you aren't going to be late for something." I said no, I was just picking up new glasses and she said, "Oh, glasses are so expensive these days! My grandson's prescription seems to change every single year. Thank God for Trumpcare - my son's job covers his healthcare even though my grandson is twenty now."

Genuinely puzzled for a moment I said, "Trumpcare? What's that?"
She then proceeded to give me a rundown of the Affordable Care Act - lower price, good coverage, no exclusions for pre-existing conditions, dependents covered up to 26 years old, and on and on. So I said, "No, that's the plan President Trump and the Republicans have been trying to eliminate. That's Obamacare. I know the Republicans have been trying to come up with a new plan, but they keep failing because they are trying to remove a lot of the protections you just mentioned."
She frowned at me and said, "President Trump promised us great healthcare and that's what my son has and it's because of President Trump."
I said, "The President has promised a lot of things, but it's because of Obama and the Affordable Care Act passed during his term that your son has great healthcare. President Trump has actively tried to repeal it, and the Republicans have said they'll try again after the election next month."

She informed me that I must be one of those libtards who get their fake news from CNN, and turned her back on me. End of discussion.

Introversion said:

Anyone still supporting the man is entirely proofed against mere facts. Honestly, it’s not worth trying to engage his supporters, online or IRL. It’s like that old saying about pigs, mud, and which one of us enjoys rolling in it.

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+1

What's scary is the swath of people who have been fact-proofed by the Kool-Aid he's been shilling. I know of an older person - a Mensa member - who is up to his gills in it, part of an old fannish club my father belongs to. When asked to defend his position with something other than canned Faux News talking points, he whined about the "nasty" comments and threatened to leave. Conversation is impossible.

Ketzel said:

Genuinely puzzled for a moment I said, "Trumpcare? What's that?"
She then proceeded to give me a rundown of the Affordable Care Act - lower price, good coverage, no exclusions for pre-existing conditions, dependents covered up to 26 years old, and on and on. So I said, "No, that's the plan President Trump and the Republicans have been trying to eliminate. That's Obamacare. I know the Republicans have been trying to come up with a new plan, but they keep failing because they are trying to remove a lot of the protections you just mentioned."
She frowned at me and said, "President Trump promised us great healthcare and that's what my son has and it's because of President Trump."
I said, "The President has promised a lot of things, but it's because of Obama and the Affordable Care Act passed during his term that your son has great healthcare. President Trump has actively tried to repeal it, and the Republicans have said they'll try again after the election next month."

She informed me that I must be one of those libtards who get their fake news from CNN, and turned her back on me. End of discussion.

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Good example of what I frequently see online. It's like we live in different worlds, with entirely different physics. Up really is down in that world, it seems.

Introversion said:

Good example of what I frequently see online. It's like we live in different worlds, with entirely different physics. Up really is down in that world, it seems.

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Reminds me of when trump supporters were gleefully shouting, down with 'Obamacare - we have the ACA.'

'One-Third Don’t Know Obamacare and Affordable Care Act Are the Same.'

Larry M said:

Reminds me of when trump supporters were gleefully shouting, down with 'Obamacare - we have the ACA.'

'One-Third Don’t Know Obamacare and Affordable Care Act Are the Same.'

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Yep - labels are important.

Expect a repeat of this mentality when the TeaOP moves to strip "entitlements"... "Well, we just get Social Security and Medicare, not entitlements! Cut 'em off!"

Sadly, very few things on that long list are likely to be considered bad by many Trump voters.

Ketzel said:

"President Trump promised us great healthcare {...}"

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She bought the con. That's Trumpcare all right.

-cb

Ketzel said:

She informed me that I must be one of those libtards who get their fake news from CNN, and turned her back on me. End of discussion.

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I've run across a few people like that too, though it's mostly been online and it's hard to tell if they're trolling or if they really believe what they are saying. Some evidently do.

I don't think there's anything we can do to reach people like that. They're so angry, so broken by something that they can't even think anymore. It's frustrating, because people keep saying that if we could just start talking to each other, we'd stop hating and mistrusting one another and be able to work out some kind of compromise.

How, though, do you compromise with someone like that? How do we find common ground? How do we even reach out if they can't even accept documented facts, like who was POTUS when the ACA passed? And how can exposure to each other's perspectives help when evidence suggests the opposite?

MaeZe said:

people who have bought into Trump's con-job are not likely to admit to themselves that they were conned.

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This is true throughout the world: many people do not want to face the fact that they were wrong, even if they know it deep down. It's easier to just keep going down the so-called path of least resistance.

MaeZe said:

There are still people on the fence. We shouldn't assume everyone has made up their mind.

I agree though, people who have bought into Trump's con-job are not likely to admit to themselves that they were conned. Rather they would dig their heels in as ego self-preservation.

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I totally get that. No one likes to admit they were wrong about something, and when something conflicts with one's core values and beliefs, what one desperately WANTS to be true, it can be hard to swallow. I'd have a hard time if someone presented evidence that, say, dog owners are substantially more likely to die of accidents or diseases involving their pets, I'd be unwilling to accept that, and unwilling to give up my dogs even if the proof were incontrovertible.

Still, there's a difference between saying that one is not convinced by evidence presented, or saying they want to see more evidence, or even insisting the evidence itself is suspect (or saying they don't care what the evidence says, they're not giving up something they love) and baldly stating that a particular government program that was started when Obama was POTUS in 2010 (or whenever the ACA passed) was implemented by Trump after 2016. That's not about shades of gray, or about evidence that could possibly be interpreted differently. That's about as clear-cut as anything can be.

cognitive dissonance is a strange thing, though, and if someone HATES Obama with every fiber of their being, it would be very hard to accept that a program that has greatly improved their life can come from such an evil person.

Why they think Obama is so evil is another question for another day, of course.

Roxxsmom said:

Why they think Obama is so evil is another question for another day, of course.

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1. Racism
2. Bullshit they’ve heard
3. Both

The problem is that the things you see as evil, I see as beneficial. And that's the basis of the discord.

Jeff

WeaselFire said:

The problem is that the things you see as evil, I see as beneficial. And that's the basis of the discord.

Jeff

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loss of civil rights for marginalized groups?
government promoted racism, misogyny, and xenophobia?
environmental degradation?
loss of world leadership status?

These things are beneficial? Explain that to me, please.

I'd remembered hearing this quote, which I thought had been said by President Lincoln, only to find out it had apparently been printed in a newspaper in Lincoln, Nebraska, 1893. Close.....no, not really. At all.

"It is useless to argue with a man whose opinion is based upon a personal or pecuniary interest; the only way to deal with him is to outvote him."
Populist politician William Jennings Bryan

I think "Pecuniary" could have a varied number of implications, not just the obvious one.

This is the quote by Abraham Lincoln:
“If you would win a man to your cause, first convince him that you are his sincere friend.”

Make as many friends as you can by November 6th if you have a passion one way or the other.

Introversion said:

1. Racism
2. Bullshit they’ve heard
3. Both

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I'm afraid you're right. If someone harbors racist beliefs, or is even vaguely uncomfortable in a society where roles and positions once reserved for white people are increasingly open to all people, they will listen to shit that tells them the man in the highest office is somehow unqualified for the position. They may not even tell themselves the discomfort is because he's black. One good thing that has happened is that most people now feel that racism is bad, and since no one likes to think of themselves as bad, they can't possibly be racist. So they cling to anything that suggests he shouldn't be there for (arguably) other reasons.

The question is why so many people who don't like to think of themselves as racist still feel so uncomfortable when a person of color steps outside the roles they expect to see people of color in. I wonder if that comes from the kind of thinking (that may be more common among conservatives--who some research suggests are more anxious) that we live in a dog-eat-dog world where there isn't enough of anything to go around. In that world view, any expansion of roles or rights by another group could mean a contraction of roles or rights for your own?

Of course, we also have people who are proud and unapologetic racists again. They may be a minority, but these hate crimes in the news lately prove we can't ignore them.

I do think many view the world as a zero-sum game. If minorities gain anything, whites must be losing something. If gays gain the right to marry, or just exist in the open, then heteros must be losing something. If poor immigrants take shitty jobs in America, then “real” Americans must be losing good jobs. Etc.

Whereas, I fear stuff that actually is happening, that most conservatives disagree is. Like climate change. And the rise of fascism, and the return of open racism and misogyny. (*)

This is why I don’t engage most conservatives about such stuff. Very little point to it.

(*) I know I’m flying my white male privilege flag when I say “the return of”. I know I haven’t faced that kind of open prejudice. I’m just dismayed that the dogwhistles have turned into foghorns, when I thought the dogwhistles meant maybe this shit was dying out. Naive of me. Sigh.

Introversion said:

(*) I know I’m flying my white make privilege flag when I say “the return of”. I know I haven’t faced that kind of open prejudice. I’m just dismayed that the dogwhistles have turned into foghorns, when I thought the dogwhistles meant maybe this shit was dying out. Naive of me. Sigh.

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I know what you mean. As a white female, I knew sexism wasn't dead all along, but it's taken a while to learn that my experience of sexism is going to be different than the way people who are also LGBTQ or PoC will experience it. Still a lot of privileges here that others don't share. When one isn't the butt of a particular kind of discrimination, it's easy to underestimate its prevalence.

As one who grew up on "feel-good" narratives about the triumphs of the Civil Rights movemen and a few prominent Black celebrities had risen to mainstream fame, I really wanted to believe everything was going well for everyone and that bigotry was in retreat. I was rather blind, because my own experiences as a woman should have made it clear that old norms die hard.

Brightdreamer said:

+1

What's scary is the swath of people who have been fact-proofed by the Kool-Aid he's been shilling. I know of an older person - a Mensa member - who is up to his gills in it, part of an old fannish club my father belongs to. When asked to defend his position with something other than canned Faux News talking points, he whined about the "nasty" comments and threatened to leave. Conversation is impossible.

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This is a big problem with both sides. They only want to talk to people they agree with and anyone who disagrees with them or has anything critical to say about their party or their president they seem to take it as a personal attack and start to hurl insults back and forth. Before long it becomes a screaming match that has nothing to do with politics just being mean to each other. It has been going on for a long time but it has gotten worse and worse over the years and now it's worse than ever in my lifetime. The more this happens the more divided the country becomes.

RookieWriter said:

This is a big problem with both sides. They only want to talk to people they agree with and anyone who disagrees with them or has anything critical to say about their party or their president they seem to take it as a personal attack and start to hurl insults back and forth. Before long it becomes a screaming match that has nothing to do with politics just being mean to each other. It has been going on for a long time but it has gotten worse and worse over the years and now it's worse than ever in my lifetime. The more this happens the more divided the country becomes.

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Both sides? One side has us on the verge of fascism and doesn't care. Both sides?