Hybrid Publishing

Richard White

Stealthy Plot Bunny Peddler
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 27, 2005
Messages
2,993
Reaction score
600
Location
Central Maryland
Website
www.richardcwhite.com
I think we need to shine some light on something that is confusing a lot of new authors here.

There is no such thing as hybrid publishing.

Period. End of quote.

I'm being serious here. You can be a large trade press, a small trade press, a university press, a regional press. An author can be a self-publisher. But, if a press asks an author for money in exchange for anything (larger percentage of royalties, hardback sales instead of just e-books, etc., etc., etc.), there's only one thing they are -- a vanity press. And in most cases you can easily say they're a stealth vanity press (because at least vanity presses are up-front about the fact you have to pay-to-play), which moves them even further down on the list of desirable presses (just above outright scammers).

I can almost guarantee that these "hybrids" have figured out exactly what it costs to print your work and whatever they're charging you covers all of it plus leaving some profit for them. They're putting all of the risk on you financially and providing nothing you can't do for yourself.

If you want an example of a "hybrid" publisher, please take some time and review the Tate Publishing thread in the Index.

--------------------------------------------

There most certainly are hybrid authors (authors who publish both in the trades and self-publish).

There ARE NO hybrid publishers.
 

cool pop

It's Cool, Miss Pop if You're Nasty
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 20, 2009
Messages
660
Reaction score
131
Location
Texas
Are you saying that you call any publisher a vanity press even if they just take royalties? I might be confused but seems that's what you are saying. If so I disagree and I am sure many others will. A publisher is not vanity if they don't charge you upfront. As for royalties, are publishers supposed to work for free? Are they supposed to edit, do covers, and put books on sale for free?

Hybrid just means being a self-publisher while being with a publisher at the same time.

If I am confused then please explain. If you are saying it the way I took it, this will be one heck of a thread once the rest of the AW crew gets here. ROFL!


Let me get my popcorn! :popcorn: Okay, I'm ready.
 
Last edited:

cool pop

It's Cool, Miss Pop if You're Nasty
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 20, 2009
Messages
660
Reaction score
131
Location
Texas
I re-read again. I got it now. What kept throwing me off was when you mentioned royalties. I thought you were saying that even having to pay royalties to be published is a form of vanity publishing. You're talking about any time a publisher has you pay money for anything outside the usual it could be considered vanity. Okay, I get it. I agree that if a publisher is going to be a publisher then they should not be charging you for anything at all. All you should be paying them are royalties. Some "presses" do try to charge for extra promotion, putting books in certain formats, etc. I think those should be avoided. Everything should be in the contract and there should be no surprises.

I still stick by my definition of hybrid only because that's what most authors mean when they use the term. They just mean an author who is doing self and trade publication.

Still eating my popcorn because this sounds like it will be an interesting thread. :popcorn:
 
Last edited:

Richard White

Stealthy Plot Bunny Peddler
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 27, 2005
Messages
2,993
Reaction score
600
Location
Central Maryland
Website
www.richardcwhite.com
If you're self-publishing and published with a trade publisher, you're a hybrid author.

A publishing company that calls itself hybrid is taking money FROM authors (usually claiming to put in their own money too). That makes it a vanity press, because odds are it's not putting in a cent but using the author's money to fund itself. It takes no financial risks, transferring them all to the author. "Hybrid" publishing is simply the new term on the block - they used to call it co-op, joint, or subsidy publishing.

I've seen companies offering "higher" royalties if the author agrees to put money into the process - again, they're funding their company through their authors which makes them a stealth vanity press. I've also seen people here talking about hybrid publishers offering to accept their books if they can guarantee a certain number of pre-sales or agree to buy a certain number of their own books up front. Again, they're getting their operating capital from their authors.

What they're claiming is the author (who should believe in their own project) should go partners with the publisher, but there's no way to verify that the publisher is acutally putting any skin in the game. I go back to Tate publishing who said if the authors would put in $4000, then Tate would match it. However, having worked with a small press publisher, I know it doesn't cost anywhere near $4000 if you're simply doing a cursory edit, putting a clip art cover together, and doing print-on-demand/e-book formatting. So, Tate was already making a profit before the books ever came out - any reason to wonder why they didn't worry about trying to actually promote/sell their author's books? Why should they? They had their money.

I absolutely agree there are hybrid authors. What I object to is stealth vanities staking a claim to a valid term to muddy the water and hide the fact that they're making money directly from their authors instead of making money by selling books to the public.
 

C Alberts

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 21, 2016
Messages
92
Reaction score
21
I want to start by saying that I will not be defending the concept of a hybrid press, or any publishers that call themselves hybrid. I agree with you almost completely...

As far as I can tell, a hybrid press is a sub-category of vanity presses, although they would probably claim otherwise.

Most vanity presses either ask for money up front or rely on the authors buying their own books. They will publish nearly anything as long as the customer will pay. At best they do nominal editing, marketing, publicity and distribution - as you say, they aren't doing anything the author couldn't do on their own.

I am assuming that most publishers calling themselves 'hybrid' really are the same as most vanity presses. However, there are some examples of hybrid presses that choose their books carefully, perform quality edits, make good covers, and even have full distribution. This sets them apart to some extent.

An example of this is She Writes Press. I have seen their finished books, and they look like any trade pubbed book. They have full distribution through IPS so sales reps actually present their catalog to bricks and mortar stores. They have even gotten some reviews in PW (not sure how they pulled that off because I think PW is pretty strict about not doing vanities). The ones I have looked at have great customer reviews. A reader would probably never know the difference. Their founder is chair of the IBPA and regularly writes blogs and articles for PW which seems to find the concept of hybrid publishing a legitimate topic of industry discussion.

I have no information about whether or not the authors make their investment back, which is a major concern.

As I said, I am not defending this as some alternative to trade publishing, nor am I claiming it is not still vanity publishing. As a bookseller, I won't carry these books unless the author is very local (we will carry almost anything from local authors - usually on consignment). It also makes me wonder about IPS, which represents some fabulous presses like Grove Atlantic and Europa. They have been adding a lot of new publishers and it sort of waters down the service they provide.

I share your impulse to say there is no difference, but it appears to me that it is not only the 'hybrid' publishers claiming the distinction. More and more I am seeing other references in the industry to hybrid publishing as something other than vanity.
 

Richard White

Stealthy Plot Bunny Peddler
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 27, 2005
Messages
2,993
Reaction score
600
Location
Central Maryland
Website
www.richardcwhite.com
I agree with you in that the phrase is becoming wide-spread and that worries me.

Same with using "traditional" publishing instead of using trade publishing. "Traditional" was originally only used by vanity presses to try and convince people they weren't vanity. However, with enough people picking up on the phraseology, it's almost a losing battle trying to convince people to use commercial or trade publishing.

Maybe I'm a purist at heart, but if the author is contributing toward publishing, then it's a vanity press, unless they're self-publishing.

Whether they make their original stake back or not, whether they turn a profit or not, has nothing to do with whether the publisher is vanity or not. Vanity presses are good at doing certain things or they wouldn't have existed as long as they have. It's the predatory ones who don't admit to being vanity (hybrids, co-ops, joint, subsidy, etc.) that concern me because they're selling themselves to unsuspecting authors as something they're not.
 

cool pop

It's Cool, Miss Pop if You're Nasty
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 20, 2009
Messages
660
Reaction score
131
Location
Texas
I agree that some companies are preying on authors. They always have and always will. This is why people have to do their own homework and research. Whenever a newbie asks what my best piece of advice is I tell them to always research. I don't get people who jump into things and don't research anything. New or not, anyone should have the sense to research something. It's not hard especially when the Internet is at our disposal. You can Google within seconds and find something. It's every writer's responsibility to ensure they are making the best decisions they can and don't go into anything blindly. Other than that, all I can do is worry about me. I will help if I can but some you can't even warn because they do what they want anyway.

For example, there were people here on AW through the years who went on and signed with publishers after people warned about them in the Bewares and Backgrounds section. Plenty did that and I don't get it. I guess it was desperation. That's what all these shady companies prey on, people so desperate to get published.
 

Fuchsia Groan

Becoming a laptop-human hybrid
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 27, 2008
Messages
2,870
Reaction score
1,399
Location
The windswept northern wastes
I do feel like there’s a movement afoot to normalize “hybrid publishing” and convince authors that unless they “invest in” their books, their books will go nowhere—even with a trade contract. I’ve seen local companies using this kind of language, and it makes me very uncomfortable.* I talked to a writing coach who stated with great assurance that writers need to pay for professional editing and that publishers no longer give advances. Neither true in my experience, and both potentially feeding into the hybrid publishing narrative.

I understand that writing is an incredibly risky pursuit (and riskier as a profession), and people are looking for some sense of security. They want to believe that if they plunk down a chunk of money, they will get results. Maybe they’re even worried they might get an advance and not earn it out, and they’d rather pay someone up front than feel beholden later. (Or they believe the myth of having to pay it back if they don’t earn out.) Or they just don’t have the patience for querying.

So I think it’s important to keep reminding people that the “investment” you make in your writing is the time you spend on writing, promoting, submitting, etc., and if you do it right, that is a huge investment. Just (usually) not a monetary one. And furthermore, vanity publishing (as opposed to smart self-publishing) probably isn’t an investment that will pay off.

I’ve encountered She Writes too, and I honestly don’t know about them. The final product is pretty decent. I guess what I want to know is, what is the incentive for a pay-to-play publisher to remain selective when they could make so much more money taking all or nearly all comers?

ETA: *Just went and reread the page I was thinking of, and it’s an interesting mix of true and misleading assertions. Debut books by unknown authors tend not to be a trade publisher’s priority? Hard to deny that. (But that ignores the fact that trade publishers with good distribution have the power to put those books in front of buyers across the land, and you don’t have to be a “priority” to get that treatment.) Self-publishing costs $10k to $20k per book to do well? Well, I haven’t tried, but I’m pretty sure I could do it for way cheaper than that. In short, there’s just enough truth in these arguments for “hybrid publishing” to sway those who haven’t learned better, and that’s unfortunate.
 
Last edited:

cool pop

It's Cool, Miss Pop if You're Nasty
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 20, 2009
Messages
660
Reaction score
131
Location
Texas
I agree, Fuchsia. I'm so sick of these idiots spreading misinformation about self-publishing and half of them have never even self-published. No way does self-publishing cost that much! ROFL! Most authors would not be self-publishing if so. The bulk of my money I spend on my books is for promotion and I spend around 100-150 dollars for promo on average. I have a promoter who charges me 40 dollars a month and the rest of that 100-150 I spend on ads. As for the actual book, I can do covers so I design covers. I also format so I can format my own books and I get deals on editing.

I don't know where in the world people got that authors spend 10k-20k to self-publish. NO WAY. The thing about self-publishing is it takes a lot of creativity and that starts with funding projects. The majority of us aren't spending thousands publishing a book. Most spend more on promotion (but the average author doesn't have thousands to spend on promo) so these are authors who are doing very well spending this type of money.

Some authors self-publish for free and no the books aren't crap either. There are many ways.

1. Bartering- Some self-publish authors barter. If you can format or do covers but can't afford editing, you can barter with an author who is an editor. You can do her covers and formatting and she does your editing all for free. It's about sharing talent and helping others and many do this.

2. DIY Publishing- Some self-publishers do everything on their own. Some design covers, format and self-edit, use editing software or use beta readers or critique groups for editing.

3. Kickstarter and Go Fund Me- Some authors use these services to raise money to self-publish and they aren't looking to raise thousands just enough to cover editing, etc.

I laugh every time I hear that self-published authors are spending thousands or that they have to. Do people really think trade publishers are spending thousands on each book THEY publish? No. Neither is the average self-publisher and they don't have to.
 

cool pop

It's Cool, Miss Pop if You're Nasty
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 20, 2009
Messages
660
Reaction score
131
Location
Texas
Once again, these people prey on those who are clueless and desperate.
 

Fuchsia Groan

Becoming a laptop-human hybrid
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 27, 2008
Messages
2,870
Reaction score
1,399
Location
The windswept northern wastes
I did know someone who spent $15k to self-publish a book, about 10 years ago, but she was doing a print run of hardcovers (no vanity pub, just sourcing everything herself). The books were gorgeous, but I think she realized she wouldn’t make back her investment.

What does it actually cost to publish your average trade book—let’s say hardcover, no illustrations or maps or anything, average print run. Anyone have an idea, or does it vary too much? The “hybrid” company I’m thinking of charges $5,500 *plus* costs of printing for their full package, which includes publicity. Not as high as some I’ve seen, but still a big chunk of cash.
 

Richard White

Stealthy Plot Bunny Peddler
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 27, 2005
Messages
2,993
Reaction score
600
Location
Central Maryland
Website
www.richardcwhite.com
I'd say, you can get a good original cover between $250-500 from an artist on Deviant Art. I've seen book design go from $400-800 depending on how complicated a book is (maps, illustrations, tables, etc.)
Editing can go from $500 to 2000 depending on the length of the book and the amount of effort required.

So, given that, I'd say $1150 to $3300 would be the high/low, but with 1500-1800 being probably close to the median.

However, some people don't hire out their art, and other have learned InDesign themselves to do their own cover/book design. So, it can be done even less expensively and if you know what you're doing, still look quite professional.

$5500 is definitely showing a profit for the "hybrid" (read: vanity) press.
 

Elenitsa

writing as Marina Costa
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 20, 2011
Messages
976
Reaction score
764
Location
Bucharest, Romania
Website
caribbeandawn1720.jcink.net
In the English-speaking literary market, I have heard that “the money should flow from the publisher to the writer, otherwise it’s a vanity press.” And there is also the option to self-publish. This is the principle you are mentioning here.

In Romania, while vanity presses exist too, the difference is only in the provided services. As I said, a vanity press would print your book and load your car with them (assuming you have a car – I don’t, and the trees along the highway are happier living without me having a driving license.) Everything else is up to you.

The equivalent of self publishing would be here dealing directly with the printing house (typography) without a publisher, since here electronic books aren't much sought. And dealing with the printing house is recommended only for professional books which have already the distribution ensured within the company, or for people who print one memoir book in their lives to give to 50-100 people, not needing ISBN or anything.

There are few really big publishing houses, financed from the state budget, which don’t require the writers’ financial contribution. Most of them publish almost only international authors translated, things they are sure they will be sold. The others accept Romanian writers only if members of the National Writers’ Union, therefore those who are just building their portfolio for accession (like me) couldn’t. Anyway, the budget is small and the few Romanian writers chosen to publish with them have to give up all rights on the book. They receive 20 copies as writer’s rights. If they want more books to give to the family and to the literary critics, they have to buy them like any other. Then they are waiting for years for receiving very small royalties. And they are stuck in legal hell with all the rights for their books belonging to the publisher, if anything happens or if they want to do something else.

The other writers are left to choose among the many small indie publishers. Not hybrid, but independent small presses. An indie publisher would do what editors and publishers are doing (here we don't have agents at all), would ensure the quality of the book, the graphics, the foreword and fourth cover written by good writers or literary critics, will organise launching events, promote your book, contact literary critics for chronicles, display the book at the semestrial international book fairs and at other local fairs. These are things which vanity presses don't do. Those just give you the books.

The advantage of being published with an indie press is that you, the writer, are keeping the rights to your book. But it doesn’t mean you don’t pay for the publishing, as the indie publishers are small presses who don’t have the financial capacity to take economic risks in these times of economic crisis. Bancrupcy can happen too quickly here, on an unstable market and with high fiscality (strangely regulated – I am not talking only books now, but any small and medium enterprise). Here even writers with 20+ years membership in the National Writers’ Union and with lots of books published, they mostly pay the publishing costs, for having the books published.

The two publishing houses where I published my books are, each of them, 3 people teams. They do graphics, editing, everything needed, including promotion. They have the right connections with good printing houses, writers, literary critics and book fairs presence, literary museum presence, etc. in order to be able to organise book-presentation literary events of various kinds. (And yes, I had several events with my published novels.)

One of the publishing houses has a 18 years presence in the literature and can boast with having published plenty of famous authors, and also to have supported debutants like me and many others. The other one is newer, but also set on promoting both consecrated writers, members of the National Writers’ Union, and debutants. They are definitely no vanity presses, helping their best with book promotion on various ways, but this doesn’t mean that they are able to take any financial risk.

I partially agree with C.Alberts. Partially, because book shops do take books published by small presses. Sometimes there are also book launchings in book shops, organised by the publishing house. But we don't want to have many books in book shops, because here they aren't selling. They are selling mostly at events, and sometimes on internet (I do have mine listed on internet book shop too). In the book shop, they are put somewhere in the back, while international authors translated and national authors required in school are the ones actually displayed and selling.

I guess what I want to know is, what is the incentive for a pay-to-play publisher to remain selective when they could make so much more money taking all or nearly all comers?

The reply to this question also makes the difference between vanity presses and indie presses, together with the reply to the promotion question. An indie press has a reputation to preserve among the literary critics and National Writers' Union members. They wouldn't publish with this press if it publishes bad books. So there is a careful selection of books. Also, a reputable writer or critic wouldn't write a foreword/ fourth cover review if the book is bad, so... again, quality control enforced.

I know people who had been rejected and vanity presses were recommended to them. And for those who are accepted, the book is corrected and strengthened. The editor/ publisher (to us it's the same thing, a Publishing House being called Editura) is working with the author to have a high quality book.

I'd say, you can get a good original cover between $250-500 from an artist on Deviant Art. I've seen book design go from $400-800 depending on how complicated a book is (maps, illustrations, tables, etc.)
Editing can go from $500 to 2000 depending on the length of the book and the amount of effort required.

So, given that, I'd say $1150 to $3300 would be the high/low, but with 1500-1800 being probably close to the median.

Taking the median of 1500 USD you are saying, and converting it in our national currency and into the prices of the most expensive of the indie presses I have published with, it was the cost for publishing about 500 pages in 2 volumes, 200 copies - the novel in my signature which deals with the Napoleonic Wars, then with the characters' immigration to USA (so that you can see the covers with the battle of Novi and, respectively, the Indian tepees). The other novel in two volumes of approximately similar number of pages, with a publishing house working with a slightly cheaper printing house, costed about 220 USD less.
 
Last edited:

Harlequin

Eat books, not brains!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 21, 2010
Messages
4,584
Reaction score
1,412
Location
The land from whence the shadows fall
Website
www.sunyidean.com
yeah... I'm struggling to convince people lately that hybrids aren't worth their time. I mostly hold my tongue now. All they do is get cross with me.

After a certain point, I almost don't know what to say. If you think spending tens of grand is a good idea, then we're already starting from a different premise.
 

Old Hack

Such a nasty woman
Super Moderator
Absolute Sage
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 12, 2005
Messages
22,454
Reaction score
4,956
Location
In chaos
I laugh every time I hear that self-published authors are spending thousands or that they have to. Do people really think trade publishers are spending thousands on each book THEY publish? No. Neither is the average self-publisher and they don't have to.

Trade publishers spend thousands on most of the titles they publish. But their authors don't.

What does it actually cost to publish your average trade book—let’s say hardcover, no illustrations or maps or anything, average print run. Anyone have an idea, or does it vary too much? The “hybrid” company I’m thinking of charges $5,500 *plus* costs of printing for their full package, which includes publicity. Not as high as some I’ve seen, but still a big chunk of cash.

I'm out of the loop now but when I was working full time in publishing, if you ignore the amounts paid in advances, it was common for trade publishers to invest £5,000 or more per title in the UK (US publishers would probably spend more). This would cover editing, design, typesetting, and printing, and everything else required to bring a book to market. But trade publishers which have good distribution and great sales teams working on their books are almost always going to see a strong return on that investment, because bookshop placement means lots of sales both from those bookshops and from online retailers too.
 

Fuchsia Groan

Becoming a laptop-human hybrid
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 27, 2008
Messages
2,870
Reaction score
1,399
Location
The windswept northern wastes
Thank you, Richard and Old Hack! It’s very helpful to see some figures. I’ve seen what a huge difference distribution and a sales force make, and as long as “hybrid” publishers can’t offer those things, and bookshops still exist (a long time, I hope!), it’s hard to take these companies’ negative statements about trade publishing seriously.

Elenitsa, thanks for posting that; the contrast between Romania and the U.S. is fascinating. I hope we aren’t going in the same direction, where paying a publisher would become normal, but it makes sense that presses with a reputation to protect would still be selective. I don’t know what would happen here if a prominent, well-regarded press started asking authors to “invest.” I do know of a newish local press that has Midpoint distribution, has published some quite well-known local authors, and effectively cultivates a niche. The publisher told me she asks some writers (not all) to pay for their editing. I don’t think she’s calling it a hybrid press or anything, but that’s blurring the lines, and it’s a bit disconcerting to me.
 

zmethos

from words to worlds
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 22, 2016
Messages
692
Reaction score
242
Location
California (Bay Area)
Website
mpepperlanglinais.com
Hybrid publishers have been making the rounds at many writing conferences, and they talk a good talk. Even I almost bought into it in the moment. But once I stepped back and really thought about it... I couldn't see much difference between hybrid and vanity except hybrid publishers swear they'll give you distribution. Well, admittedly I haven't gone to the local bookstore to see if any of their books are on the shelves, so I don't know. But I do have an author friend who spent something like $25k on two titles she published with a hybrid (although some of that cost, I believe, came from her also hiring a PR person). It seems like a huge amount of money to spend to get your book into the world. I will say she did end up with many foreign rights being sold, and her book is out in several languages now, and she seems happy with her experience. But even if I could afford it, I don't think I'd go that route.
 

Richard White

Stealthy Plot Bunny Peddler
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 27, 2005
Messages
2,993
Reaction score
600
Location
Central Maryland
Website
www.richardcwhite.com
Hybrid publishers have been making the rounds at many writing conferences, and they talk a good talk. Even I almost bought into it in the moment. But once I stepped back and really thought about it... I couldn't see much difference between hybrid and vanity except hybrid publishers swear they'll give you distribution. Well, admittedly I haven't gone to the local bookstore to see if any of their books are on the shelves, so I don't know. But I do have an author friend who spent something like $25k on two titles she published with a hybrid (although some of that cost, I believe, came from her also hiring a PR person). It seems like a huge amount of money to spend to get your book into the world. I will say she did end up with many foreign rights being sold, and her book is out in several languages now, and she seems happy with her experience. But even if I could afford it, I don't think I'd go that route.

And the big question is ... what are they doing for her that she couldn't have done for herself for that same amount of money? (Besides, taking a cut of the profits, that is?)
 

stevkaprel

Registered
Joined
Aug 25, 2019
Messages
7
Reaction score
1
Location
connecticut
I’ve decided to weigh in on the hybrid publishing issue which, from what I’ve read, boils down to whether hybrids are simply vanities (by definition, firms that takes an author’s money but reward an author with nothing but unsold books) or a viable option in which the author has the same chance as in traditional publishing to receive a financial reward. The overwhelming sentiment on this website seems to be the vanity.

Let me explain how I got to this point.

I spent some years writing a first book then a year looking for a publisher. After the year of effort, I took stock. I had queried around 125 prospects (some indies, mostly agents). My MS was seen by only three of them. Two turned out to be hybrids.

I was struck by the basic truth that my book was not being rejected on its own merits but on the merits of my queries. It would not have made any difference whether or not my book was another “Gone with the Wind” or an illiterate rant.

Another truth was evident. Whatever their merit, at least a hybrid publisher will, potentially, look at your book. Ideally, if it is on the level, it will make a judgment regarding the book’s merit.

I did not feel that I could trust either of my hybrid prospects. But my total experience led me to conclude that the only way to have my book succeed on its own merits was the hybrid route. That challenge would be to find one that could be relied on to fulfill the role of a traditional publisher but, in order to spread the financial risk, require a financial input on my part.

I came to this site hoping to find a solution to the issue of how to select a hybrid that could be relied on to fulfill the same role as a traditional outfit with the only difference being my financial contribution.
When I got here, all I could find was the debate over whether hybrids were vanities under another name. This seems to be dogmatically based completely upon a priori assumptions.

The relationship between author and publisher has always been a partnership.

In the traditional partnership, the author contributes sweat equity (labor) while the publisher supplies financing and sweat equity,
produces and markets the tangible product. This is the input, the capital investment, in the joint venture. This investment hopefully produces a return on the investment in the form of revenues, part of which is retained by the publisher and the other part of which is paid as author’s royalties.

The notion that a traditional model entails the flow of money from publisher to author while the hybrid model entails the flow of money in the other direction is false. Capital investment is one thing and the return on the investment is another. On the capital investment side, it involves more than just money. On the return on investment side, the money flows from the market place to both the author and publisher.

It appears to me the real basis for the hybrid equals vanity argument is the concern that a hybrid publisher will not fulfill the traditional role of promoting the sale of the product. It may come as a surprise to many here but even before the advent of the hybrid model authors have crossed swords with publishers over whether the latter have adequately promoted a book, particularly when sales do not fulfill the author’s expectations. You can ask any old timer.

So the issue is whether or not there is such a thing as true hybrid (which promotes like a traditional) or not and if there is how to recognize it when you see it. On the recognize side, I could use all the help I can get.
 

lizmonster

Possibly A Mermaid Queen
Absolute Sage
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 5, 2012
Messages
14,533
Reaction score
24,102
Location
Massachusetts
Website
elizabethbonesteel.com
First: stevkaprel, I'm sorry about your experience and your frustration. It's maddening and crazymaking, and for what it's worth you're in the company of many folks who've been through similar trials. I hope your future career brings better experiences.

Second: Because I'm me, I'm going to pick on some of your conclusions here.

I had queried around 125 prospects (some indies, mostly agents). My MS was seen by only three of them. Two turned out to be hybrids.

As you properly concluded, this strongly suggests a problem with the query letter.

Whatever their merit, at least a hybrid publisher will, potentially, look at your book. Ideally, if it is on the level, it will make a judgment regarding the book’s merit.

Bolding mine. As soon as an outfit is charging you money to publish your creative work, they have absolutely no incentive to do anything further for your career. So I'm not sure what "on the level" means here - except maybe they're candid about expecting you to fund their efforts rather than your sales doing so.

But my total experience led me to conclude that the only way to have my book succeed on its own merits was the hybrid route.

So, I think the step you're missing here is fixing the query letter.

A query letter isn't a mysterious golden ticket. It also doesn't have to be Shakespeare. It needs to a) represent your book accurately, and b) entice an agent/publisher to read pages. It does not have to be a rarified composition of poetic genius; it just has to be a decent marketing document.

Skipping to vanity because of a bad query seems a bit extreme to me.

That challenge would be to find one that could be relied on to fulfill the role of a traditional publisher but, in order to spread the financial risk, require a financial input on my part.

Self-publishing also requires financial input on your part, and you're not buying anybody else's interest.

The relationship between author and publisher has always been a partnership.

Sort of. Authors are freelancers. It's piecework.

It may come as a surprise to many here but even before the advent of the hybrid model authors have crossed swords with publishers over whether the latter have adequately promoted a book, particularly when sales do not fulfill the author’s expectations. You can ask any old timer.

I am 100% fully and personally aware that publishers @#$% up marketing all the time, to the detriment of the author. My advance checks still cashed just fine.

So the issue is whether or not there is such a thing as true hybrid (which promotes like a traditional) or not

Not. They do not have the incentive to do so, because they're getting their money from you, not selling your book.
 

mrsmig

Write. Write. Writey Write Write.
Staff member
Moderator
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 4, 2012
Messages
9,883
Reaction score
7,171
Location
Virginia
So the issue is whether or not there is such a thing as true hybrid (which promotes like a traditional) or not and if there is how to recognize it when you see it. On the recognize side, I could use all the help I can get.

If the sales track record for a "hybrid" publisher reveals that you'll likely never recoup your monetary investment in the venture - then it's a vanity. You are paying to have your book published, plain and simple.

Getting sales figures from an iffy publisher is the tricky part. They will likely not give you that information, and if they do, you should still do you due diligence.

You can go to Amazon, look for their books and check sales rankings, number of reviews, etc. If those rankings are low and the reviews are few - or if they read like sham reviews: all five-star and limited to "this book is great! read it!" - then that's a red flag. Especially look for editorial reviews - Kirkus, Publishers Weekly, etc. If there are none, that's a red flag.

You can go to your local bookstore and see if you can find the iffy publisher's books on shelves. If the answer is no, that's another red flag. (If you ask a bookseller if they have the books and their response is that they can order them for you, that's meaningless. The books should be in stock/on the shelves.)

You could contact authors who have published with said iffy publisher and see if they'll give you the skinny. Look for authors who've had their books out for a year or more (more is better). Ask if they've recouped their monetary investment in the venture. Nothing else matters: not that they had a good editor or a great cover design or if the iffy publisher is "nice" or "great to work with." All you need to know is whether they've made their money back. If they haven't, then you should avoid the iffy publisher.

Hope this is helpful.
 
Last edited:

Pastelnudes

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 1, 2019
Messages
353
Reaction score
65
You seem to want this 'publisher' to be a small publisher. But no matter how many times you say the word 'hybrid', that doesn't make them a small publisher (of which there are now very few, and who operate in the same way as all publishers; we, submit to them, and the only money that changes hands is through royalties).

I don't understand why more people don't just ask their local Bookseller, as LizMonster suggests. Booksellers will recognise the name, if they are a small publisher. More likely, they'll give you a pitying look, as they can tell at a glance it's a vanity press.


Or look them up in the Writer's and Artist's Yearbook (or equivalent).

Why tie yourself in knots over this?

It's a five-minute job to phone a good bookshop and ask what they think of this outfit.

I'm sorry. There aren't any shortcuts.

These people are despicable, in my opinion.
 
Last edited:

Unimportant

No COVID yet. Still masking.
Staff member
Moderator
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 8, 2005
Messages
19,519
Reaction score
22,755
Location
Aotearoa
It is true that agents evaluate queries from authors based on, well, the queries. So most authors need to learn to write a query if they want to get an agent. Fortunately, while it can take a bit of trial and error and practice, it's a skill that is invaluable for any author.

It's also true that some books, no matter how well written, are never going to be selected by an agent or a major press acquiring editor simply because they are simply too niche-market and therefore not profitable. For example, even Shakespeare and Hemingway collaborated on a dinosaur porn book, I can't see Random House publishing it.

So the issue is whether or not there is such a thing as true hybrid (which promotes like a traditional) or not
As far as I am aware, there is not.

and if there is how to recognize it when you see it. On the recognize side, I could use all the help I can get.
To me, 'promotes' would equal book placement in bookstores + sufficient sales to earn their authors a decent amount of money.

To recognise publishers that do that (whether major press, small press, vanity press, micro press, hybrid press, self publisher), you can go look in bookstores. Are the books there? And you can ask their authors. Are they earning the kind of money that you, personally, consider acceptable?

That is all assuming that your goal is to make money, since that is the goal of trade publishers. If that's not your goal, then ignore everything I've said!