A touchy topic.

aryheron

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Religion is a huge topic in some of my books. However, I think a reason why I love Fantasy and creating my own world when I write stories centered about religion is that I can create something entirely new, and I don’t have to write about existing religions.

All the time, I see people trashing Christianity and their beliefs or customs in books, no matter the genre. However I see no trashing of other religions in any books (I’m sure there are, I just haven’t picked up any that do). I cringe a little bit when I see characters insulting God, specially when the author isn’t Christian, because I just find it... disrespectful to a very large part of the audience of that book? I completely get it when a character is doing it because that character is atheist or whatever, but when it’s obvious that it’s the author’s opinion it’s awfully jarring.

Whether it be towards Christianity or Judaism or Islam or Hinduism or any other religion... how do you feel about disrespect towards religious people and their beliefs in books when it is completely uncalled for?

I love my fake made-up gods because characters can be as blasphemous as they want and I won’t be insulting any of my readers. If I want my audience to cringe, I don’t want it to be because I insulted an important life of their life.
 

mccardey

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All the time, I see people trashing Christianity and their beliefs or customs in books, no matter the genre. However I see no trashing of other religions in any books
Oh, I think Islam gets a bit of a bollocking. Also Judaism.

ETA: Science, though not a religion unless you see religion as an ontology, is also often wildly disrespected.
 

aryheron

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I forgot to mention that I’ve made this observation in YA books, not in non-fiction or adult fantasy or other genres.
 

Helix

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I forgot to mention that I’ve made this observation in YA books, not in non-fiction or adult fantasy or other genres.

In your OP, you said "no matter the genre", so which is it?

I'd suggest that critical examination of faiths and their adherents is something that fiction can do well.
 

mccardey

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I'd suggest that critical examination of faiths and their adherents is something that fiction can do well.

In fact, it's probably pretty important.

Since we've said no matter the genre, Marilynne Robinson's Gilead does Christianity brilliantly, for my money.

ETA: And in non-fic, I do like Reza Aslan on Islam.
 
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Anna Spargo-Ryan

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Many religions other than Christianity are criticised; it's likely you're noticing that more than others because it relates to you, like when you buy a new car and suddenly see the car everywhere.

I delight in seeing any reasonable critique of religion in books or anywhere. As an Australian (like the other commenters in this thread) I feel more motivated than ever to do this myself.
 

aryheron

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True. Let me clarify my meaning: in every other genre I’ve seen Christianity AND other religions attacked (but Christianity much more viciously) while in YA is has only been Christianity. Apologies for the confusion.

I agree that critical examination is something that can be done well, but that is entirely different than trashing an existing religion just for effect, though.
 

neandermagnon

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Can you give some examples of books (YA, fantasy or other genres) that trash Christianity? I can think of lots of books that have a worldview that doesn't align with the Christian belief system, for example where people allow things that are frowned upon in Christianity or where people worship other gods and so on, but I can't think of any that actually disparage Christianity.

I can think of various non-fiction books that criticise Christianity (in some cases quite harshly) but not fiction books. I don't think there is anything wrong with intellectual criticism of a religion or belief system (as long as it's not personal attacks or racism disguised as "legitimate" criticism of religion - you can criticise beliefs without trashing people). I don't agree with blasphemy that's only for the sake of offending people, but all the examples that I can think of where people have done that are against Islam. So even if there are people who do that against Christianity - I'm sure there must be - it's not correct to say it's only against Christianity.
 

neandermagnon

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True. Let me clarify my meaning: in every other genre I’ve seen Christianity AND other religions attacked (but Christianity much more viciously) while in YA is has only been Christianity. Apologies for the confusion.

I need examples. I read a lot of young adult fiction and I can't think of any such books.
 

aryheron

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That could be right, I could be noticing because it hurts me to read insulting things about things I believe in. Then again, I’m about to read a book whose plot revolves around defying certain Muslim cultures, which is not a topic I usually read about. I will be careful to see if the topic is handled with due respect and whether anything I read in the novel bothers be for its lack of sensitivity towards a Muslim audience to see how it compares to my experience as a Catholic reading works that bother me even if just slightly.
 
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Helix

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Could you give an example of what you mean, because one person's trashing is another person's robust exploration of a topic.

ETA: Neandermagnon has it covered!
 
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aryheron

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It’s usually just quotes that are thrown in there and people barely notice them. If you give me some time I can go look for specific examples, given that I haven’t memorized the quotes. Also, I read a lot of books in Spanish that have not been translated to English and that are a source for my argument.
 

mccardey

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That could be right, I could be noticing because it hurts me to read insulting things about things I believe in. Then again, I’m about to read a book whose plot revolves around defying certain Muslim cultures, which is not a topic I usually read about. I will be careful to see if the topic is handled with due respect and whether anything I read in the novel bothers be for its lack of sensitivity towards a Muslim audience to see how it compares to my experience as a Catholic reading works that bother me even if just slightly.
Good idea, but first maybe do a quick google of Islam, so that you can have some basis for your response (would be my advice). Also because it's one of the wonderful gifts of books - that they take you outside your life and into an understanding of other viewpoints. :Sun:
 

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I don't think it's a touchy issue, but I do think it is complex.

I don't think people have anything against Christianity particularly, they're simply more familiar with it, and that familiarity breeds a degree of exoticism. I've had to argue with (western) friends that yes, really, Buddhism has ideological flaws too; every religion does (some strands of Buddhism moreso than others.) Hinduism also has some very problematic beliefs, but I tend to see those addressed more head-on in literature. (Lord of Light by Roger Zelazny has a fairly eviscerating analysis of some aspects of Hinduism, though he goes for the low hanging fruit of caste society.) Anyways, a lot of people just don't know anything about non Western religions and they kind of idolise it a little as a result.

If you want a scifi book that considers Christianity specifically in a thoughtful, analytical way, I recommend the following:

-- "Hyperion" by Dan Simmons
-- "Book of the Long Sun" by Gene Wolfe
-- "Quietus" by Tristan Palmgren (this is the most recent)
-- "The Sparrow" by Maria Doria Russell
-- "A Canticle for Leibowitz" by Walter M Miller

Of the above, I know that Dan Simmons (although an athiest/agonistic) explicity set out to defy the the undercurrent of religious "dismissiveness" that does appear in some more hard scifi books (eg, Peter Hamilton, whose books I found aggressively anti-theist). Gene Wolfe is Catholic, so his books aren't preachy but do have an interesting take.

For books that simply look at religion more broadly, I thought "Stranger in a Strange Land" (although modelled loosely on Christianity) was good, if ultimately critical. Lord of Light, as I mentioned, examines Buddhism and Hinduism primarily, although I think Islam and Christianity feature briefly (and you should read thsi anyway, it's a wonderful book.)


I would add, as well, that SFF books written by aggressively Christian authors are worse, imo, than books written by aggressively anti-theist authors. I remember reading one book, very good seller, whose author I won't name. It featured a demon who ate aborted babies and included open justification of terrorists who bomb abortion clinics. Just grim, and verging into propaganda. In one of his other books, the MC nearly dies because he has sex outside of marriage with a divorced woman and his sin manifests as a physical curse that starts slowly killing him. Even when I was religious, that series had me recoiling at the grotesque heavy-handedness.
 

aryheron

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I can’t stand books written by aggressively Christian authors, basically because I do not support radicalism in any way. Just like I demand respect for my beliefs, I demand respect for those who do not share those beliefs and have others of their own. The book you are describing sounds atrocious and the author seems like a person with whom I would never want to be associated, because radicalism is problematic.
 

aryheron

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Good idea, but first maybe do a quick google of Islam, so that you can have some basis for your response (would be my advice). Also because it's one of the wonderful gifts of books - that they take you outside your life and into an understanding of other viewpoints. :Sun:

Thank you for your advice, but don’t worry, I have done my fair share of research and studying on the topic of religions of the world and several of my friends are Muslim, they have educated me on important elements of their beliefs and culture :) I’m sure it’s not nearly enough to fully understand a culture that isn’t mine, but it is certainly enough to known when it is being disrespected.
 

aryheron

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Okay good because

Exactly. I have studied the elements of the religion, but not works that defy the elements that make up that religion. Being simply presented with facts is much different than the exploration of said facts.
 

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A book where a teenage protagonist is having issues with religion or is doubting their own religious background isn't necessarily intended to diss that reliigon or God. It's a common issue many people struggle with as they come of age. And even if a book is critical of a particular religion, that doesn't necessarily mean the author hates it.

I'm guessing we might see more books that are critical of aspects of Christianity in US and European cultures because Christianity is the dominant religion in US and European culture. Authors and readers from these places tend to have a lot of immediate experience with it and any shortcomings they perceive it as having, and they are more likely to have had direct bad experiences with some aspect of organized Christianity or with some Christians.

It's harder for an author from the dominant US cultural background to be critical of Judaism or Islam or Buddhism or Hinduism or whatever in quite the same way if they have had little personal experience with these religions. That would come off as criticism from ignorance or bigotry rather than informed deconstruction or whatever.

I'd also argue that being critical of a given religion in a novel is not necessarily the same thing as insulting God themselves--unless one believes the way some people see or relate to their deity is the only way of looking at God respectfully. Assuming the criticism is coming from a place of belief in a single overarching deity (called God) of everything to begin with. Not everyone believes in this, or in any God at all.

However, there are indeed books that are critical of other religions than Christianity, and they often originate with writers from those other religious backgrounds. The Satanic Verses by Salmon Rushdie is a famous example. He caught a lot of flack for it from members of his own religion (to put it mildly).
 

mccardey

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Exactly. I have studied the elements of the religion, but not works that defy the elements that make up that religion. Being simply presented with facts is much different than the exploration of said facts.
Yes, I know - but your original post said that
All the time, I see people trashing Christianity and their beliefs or customs in books, no matter the genre. However I see no trashing of other religions in any books (I’m sure there are, I just haven’t picked up any that do).
so I thought maybe if you read more widely it would help because all those books are out there. All religions get trashed, and so does the non-religious - in YA and everywhere else. But it helps to see it, as Anna S-R said, if you sensitise yourself to it.

ETA: Okay, Anna didn't say that, but she said if you're picking it up with Christianity, it might be because Christianity is your religion. But if you've got an awareness of other eligions covered, that's fine (although I'm surprised that you haven't come across any other anti-religious ideas re other religions yet - but I'm sure you will.)
 
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aryheron

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The most prominent example I have at the forefront of my mind right now is actually from a friend’s book. Just like someone before didn’t want to mention an author, I do not want to mention this one because the author is my friend in real life, and I hope you understand it doesn’t feel right to mention their name.

This person is an atheist. They have no idea whatsoever about anything that religious people do. They just don’t believe in God, period, because they were raised without any religious education and because, in their own words, it was “not cool” to be religious. “Old fashioned” they believed it was. When I read the book, I found that there was a Christian character, while the MC wasn’t religious in any way. Religion wasn’t an important topic in the book, it was just a character trait of this one side character who wasn’t radical or old-fashioned, she just believed in God. And the MC described Christians as complete shitheads, for no reason at all other than they had faith and that was completely stupid.

The book had no analytical value whatsoever. None at all. It wasn’t a critical examination of Christianity, it was just the author’s opinion thrown in there. And THAT bothered me, because it was disrespectful. Had the book given me good reason for the MC to believe that, it might have not bothered me.

Also I have an American YA book in the tip of my tongue right now and I’m looking through my shelves like crazy cause I can’t remember the title, but it did more of the same.

My post was originally meant to say that criticism of religions in fiction should be handled with respect. I can perfectly tolerate blasphemy and insulting comments in books when they have reason to be there, a purpose for the characters or plot. When they are out in there just with insulting motives, like this author did, I believe that stops being okay.
 
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Helix

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The most prominent example I have at the forefront of my mind right now is actually from a friend’s book. Just like someone before didn’t want to mention an author, I do not want to mention this one because the author is my friend in real life, and I hope you understand it doesn’t feel right to mention their name.

This person is an atheist. They have no idea whatsoever about anything that religious people do. They just don’t believe in God, period, because they were raised without any religious education and because, in their own words, it was “not cool” to be religious. “Old fashioned” they believed it was. When I read the book, I found that there was a Christian character, while the MC wasn’t religious in any way. Religion wasn’t an important topic in the book, it was just a character trait of this one side character who wasn’t radical or old-fashioned, she just believed in God. And the MC described Christians as complete shitheads, for no reason at all other than they had faith and that was completely stupid.

The book had no analytical value whatsoever. None at all. It wasn’t a critical examination of Christianity, it was just the author’s opinion thrown in there. And THAT bothered me, because it was disrespectful. Had the book given me good reason for the MC to believe that, it might have not bothered me.

Also I have an American YA book in the tip of my tongue right now and I’m looking through my shelves like crazy cause I can’t remember the title, but they did more of the same.

[My emphasis]

In the absence of any further information, that sounds like characterisation. It's not a hill I'd be prepared to die on.
 

mccardey

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The most prominent example I have at the forefront of my mind right now is actually from a friend’s book. Just like someone before didn’t want to mention an author, I do not want to mention this one because the author is my friend in real life

Oh, okay - it's just that you said

All the time, I see people trashing Christianity and their beliefs or customs in books, no matter the genre. However I see no trashing of other religions in any books

So- that's why you're getting pushback. Welcome to AW :)
 

aryheron

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Since I see other people don’t seem to get offended by things they read on religion in books, I suppose maybe it’s just that in my case I wouldn’t like people talking to me like I see characters sometimes expressing themselves in books. Everyone has their own personal preferences, things that they are comfortable talking about and things they don’t like.

I’ll update with specific examples if I come up with anything of the sort in this week’s reading.
 

Helix

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Since I see other people don’t seem to get offended by things they read on religion in books, I suppose maybe it’s just that in my case I wouldn’t like people talking to me like I see characters sometimes expressing themselves in books. Everyone has their own personal preferences, things that they are comfortable talking about and things they don’t like.

I’ll update with specific examples if I come up with anything of the sort in this week’s reading.


Novels are pretty much made up of conflict. If I decided not to read stories where made up people are calling other made up people things that I wouldn't want to be called IRL, I'd be stuck on the Janet and John books.