Ye olde first versus third debate, for a new novel

SwallowFeather · Oct 7, 2018

I mean this is a bit of a stupid question, but I just need to get it out of my head & look at it from a few angles.

Backstory: I have three published novels, all in the same world, time period, & family--they're about a brother and sister (& basically their WWII resistance activities as young people. They each cover a year or so of the war.)

Novel One, focused on Brother: Third person, 3 POVs.
Novel Two, focused on Sister: First person, 1 POV.
Novel Three, focused on Brother: Third person, 2 POVs.
Novel Four, not yet written, very probably focused on Sister: TBD.

Other wrinkles: 1) my editor tried to make me change Novel 2 to Third person, 2) I didn't, and 3) Novel 2 didn't sell as well.

So do I follow the pattern & write this new story in first person, or basically discard Book 2 (which I personally liked very much btw!) as deserving to be the odd one out?

If I write it in third, I can do multiple POVs. I don't have a plot yet (still reading up on the history involved) but there's a good chance that could be useful.

But Sister has this voice. I like her voice. Though some people have found it overly modern for the period.

I mean here's what came to me for the first few lines:

My family broke up two weeks before I turned eighteen. I knew where my brother went--roughly--but my parents, no idea.

I'm not complaining, you understand. That's how hiding from the Gestapo works.

TBH, I basically know third is the right decision. It's just that voice that I can't quite get out of my head. Can I keep the voice better than I think in third? Is the voice not as good as I think it is? :Shrug:

lizmonster · Oct 7, 2018

You can do multi POVs in first, too. You can even have some POVs be first, and some be third.

I never wrote first, and then I had a book pretty much insist on it.

I wouldn't think twice about series patterns. Do what works for this story.

starrystorm · Oct 7, 2018

I know exactly what you mean about not getting a voice out of your head (in a writer's sense, that is). I've had this one character that I can't let go of just because of the voice. Every time I get rid of a story with her, her voice shows back up in another genre/series/ect.

Write in the sister's voice.

Don't write a story you're going to be "meh" about while writing. It will show through your words. Write something you're passionate about and the readers will feel it too. If worse comes to worse and you must write in multiple POV's, maybe make hers in first and the rest in third. It also seems like you have a pattern to back yourself up (third person, first person, third person). If this new one is in first person, the series will continue with the pattern.

I know this probably isn't the professional choice and that people will have other opinions, but for me, it's what I'd do.

CJSimone · Oct 7, 2018

Hi SwallowFeather.

IMO it doesn't need to follow a pattern; you've simply established that these books may be in first or third. But I can see that if the sister's POV has only been in first, it may be a good idea to continue with that. I was wondering if the sister is a POV character in the brother's third person multi-POV books, and if so, how that went.

I'm not usually the biggest fan of mixing first and third within a story, but it can work, and because you've mixed it in the series, it would make sense to me for this book to be mixed. And like lizmonster said, you can have multiple first person POVs, which is becoming popular.

Maybe try out your first chapter in both and see what you and others like better. You can often get great feedback in SYW. The sample you gave here to me is too short to say whether it's a great voice or not, and the quality of voice is so subjective anyway. Ultimately, I'd say write it how it speaks and works for you the author, while staying open to feedback on it.

Best with it!

CJ

shadowsminder · Oct 7, 2018

Hey, SwallowFeather.

My opinion is that you should go with what you already know. That voice sounds too contemporary for a WW2 character. Is that how she talked in the first book? I could understand switching to first-person POV to better bring out the voice from someone from that time, yet the example shows that what you want is to place her in a more modern culture than her brother. I'm guessing that's off-putting to fans of your first and third books.

I think you hold onto the voice you love for a new character after this fourth book. Try writing the sister and anyone else whose POV you need using third-person.

Returning to first-person POV might not be too hard if third-person really isn't working in new drafts.

Harlequin · Oct 8, 2018

I'm a fan of mixing.

angeliz2k · Oct 8, 2018

As lizmonster says, you can have multiple first-person POVs. (I'm fiddling with that right now--though I'm not published yet, alas.) And neither would mixing and matching first- and third-person be beyond the ken.

Two thoughts: if the sister has previously been in first, I feel you should stick with that, to be consistent. You've established that there is first and third, and it seems like you've established that certain characters are first and certain are third.

Second: what evidence does your editor have that the switch to first person was the reason for the decrease in sales? Do *you* agree? There are a thousand reasons why one book sells more than another.

SwallowFeather · Oct 8, 2018

Wow, thanks everyone for your replies!

lizmonster said:
I wouldn't think twice about series patterns. Do what works for this story.

That certainly makes sense. By the look of things, Book 3 will sell best of the 3, and many people (I hope many!) may simply start there. And anyway, I'm not sure people so much think of this as a series--they're really related standalones, I've done a lot of work to make sure you truly don't need to have read the earlier ones but can pick up anywhere.

starrystorm said:
I know exactly what you mean about not getting a voice out of your head (in a writer's sense, that is). I've had this one character that I can't let go of just because of the voice. Every time I get rid of a story with her, her voice shows back up in another genre/series/ect.

Yeah, that's exactly why I wrote the second one in the sister's voice! I still don't regret that, I think it was the right choice for that book. It was a very personal story of transformation for her & I did some stuff with using her narration to show certain skewed perceptions she had & how they changed, etc. My sense of her voice isn't quite as compelling this time, to tell the truth. It's still like "well, she has this voice" but it isn't quite like "AND SHE'S TALKING TO ME." She hasn't said anything yet really except those lines I quoted. This will also probably be a different sort of story, a wider-ranging one with more action (it's that part of the war) and I'm tentatively planning romance. (That's another question I have to answer at some point: does love-interest get a POV?)

So did you ever use your character's voice in an actual story yet? Your story makes me think, hm, if I go with third I could just also do a short-story in first. First is so great for short stories.

CJSimone said:
But I can see that if the sister's POV has only been in first, it may be a good idea to continue with that. I was wondering if the sister is a POV character in the brother's third person multi-POV books, and if so, how that went.

No, she never was--she's only ever been written in first, and it's true that's one of the things that give me pause. I think I need to at least do a few writing exercises trying to write her in third, because you never know how it'll go unless you try. I've wondered about writing a passage in first and "translating" it.

aspirit said:
That voice sounds too contemporary for a WW2 character. Is that how she talked in the first book?

Haha, it is indeed, and a fair handful of reviewers had your same reaction. I'm curious (since I've got somebody with this take here "live" so to speak): what is it that sounds too modern to your ear? Sarcasm/irreverence? Specific phrasing? I'm in two minds about this, because I've also been told some of the dialogue in the first and third sounded too modern, but... my characters are all French. The French (the workaday French that is) have always used a ton of slang. I'm using the Translation Convention of course but I personally do think I got the "feel" right... but that isn't quite the same as Sister's voice so I digress. Anyway thanks for commenting specifically on the excerpt! It's helpful.

angeliz2k said:
Second: what evidence does your editor have that the switch to first person was the reason for the decrease in sales? Do *you* agree? There are a thousand reasons why one book sells more than another.

Oh yeah, I think there were a bunch of reasons. The editor didn't actually claim that was the reason, she was taken off my book and it was given to another editor when I refused to make the change. (I'm still not sure about the dynamics of that decision and whether I became unpopular at the publishing house... I know I didn't handle the situation well, I was polite but my timing was awful. Anywho.) It ended up getting less editing, it had a poorer cover (used to be a good cover but when they took the swastika off it due to UK law, what was left wasn't compelling), I don't know how promotional efforts from my publisher compared but I wonder... etc. It's correlation, not causation, but... negative reviews tended to be from readers who actually just didn't like the character. She rubbed them the wrong way. I wonder if precisely what worked for me & some readers about the voice was just wrong for others.

About mixing or multiple firsts: I should've mentioned I pre-ruled those out. I think they may break the conventions of my genre, or at least be uncommon enough within it to turn off too many readers. Certainly my editors don't seem to be fans and I imagine I'd get way more pushback than I got before. And actually I personally wouldn't do them without either (probably both) a compelling reason and a really clear firm structure around them (frame story, journal entries, whatever.)

That does give me an idea though. It's not out of the question to throw in a few journal entries or letters even if I got with multiple 3rds. (That would be a small enough thing not to break the conventions, I think.) The question is whether this will fit the story....

Again thank you for responding! It's really so helpful to be able to get my thoughts out there & interact with others on this.

starrystorm · Oct 8, 2018

SwallowFeather said:
Yeah, that's exactly why I wrote the second one in the sister's voice! I still don't regret that, I think it was the right choice for that book. It was a very personal story of transformation for her & I did some stuff with using her narration to show certain skewed perceptions she had & how they changed, etc. My sense of her voice isn't quite as compelling this time, to tell the truth. It's still like "well, she has this voice" but it isn't quite like "AND SHE'S TALKING TO ME." She hasn't said anything yet really except those lines I quoted. This will also probably be a different sort of story, a wider-ranging one with more action (it's that part of the war) and I'm tentatively planning romance. (That's another question I have to answer at some point: does love-interest get a POV?)

So did you ever use your character's voice in an actual story yet? Your story makes me think, hm, if I go with third I could just also do a short-story in first. First is so great for short stories.

No, I haven't yet, although I started something but only got to chapter 2. It was fun.

BT Lamprey · Oct 8, 2018

I think you can keep much of her voice even in third person:

"Her family broke up two weeks before she turned eighteen. She knew where her brother went--roughly--but her parents, no idea.

Not that she's complaining, understand. That's how hiding from the Gestapo works."

So I would go with third person omniscient, and veer into her head whenever you want.

WriteMinded · Oct 9, 2018

My guess - and I know nothing - is that people (readers) expect a series to be written similary. If the first book is in first POV, the rest follow the pattern. People have preferences and expectations based on the first book. However, there are no laws and you can do whatever you want.

I don't really understand your concern about voice. Close third is as voicy and first.

I write in third because that's what I like to read. For me, writing third is difficult, while writing in first is easy peasy. I guess I like to torture myself.

Ye olde first versus third debate, for a new novel

SwallowFeather

Oops I just swallowed a feather

lizmonster

Possibly A Mermaid Queen

starrystorm

CJSimone

shadowsminder

writing in the shadows

Harlequin

Eat books, not brains!

angeliz2k

never mind the shorty

SwallowFeather

Oops I just swallowed a feather

starrystorm

BT Lamprey

WriteMinded

Derailed