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Obviously spaced-out words on one line...: "Filling word" use?

Harlequin

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Words occasionally are hyphened.

Trade publications do infrequently have orphans/widows. But only very infrequently. Unless every word in the sentence is monstrously long, there should usually be some room for shuffling.
 

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But surely the effect is unavoidable when one too many letters, at maximum "compression", pushes a large word off the top line of a paragraph. No program can fix this, other than changing the margins, or fonts, of an entire book for ONE word... Surely the editor can later make a note to the author, at the request of the typesetter maybe, among all the other suggested changes, if books take years to reach the market...

The writer's words take precedence over typesetting.

And a good typesetter can work miracles.

My point is that bad cases require human intervention. It cannot be automatic. Also, I have seen trade publications with such odd lines that are quite extreme (even if rare) so it does slip through, or is at least occasionally tolerated, even in professional publications.n

It is the job of the typesetter to intervene. That's what they do. That's why, for instance, some self-publishers hire a professional to typeset their printed books.

Sometimes, it's true, that there's not much you can do as a typesetter to fix a problem. Given that one page flows to the next, sometimes you can't fix an issue without introducing a larger issue, so the lesser problem is tolerated.

Sometimes the typesetter is less than competent, but that's not likely at a respected trade publisher.

Generally though, a professional typesetter works magic by making tiny changes in kerning and tracking, or glyph use (for instance, there are multiple forms of ellipses in a professional full font).

That said, I'm not sure, really, what you're after other than making strange accusations and assertions about publishers, writers and editors.
 
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blacbird

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No program can fix this, other than changing the margins, or fonts, of an entire book for ONE word...

Are you familiar with kerning? You can do this in MS-Word (although they have it hidden under a couple layers of menu), and it can help quite a bit with individual lines that have length or spacing problems. But you really do need to upgrade your learning about how these programs function.

caw
 

Anna Spargo-Ryan

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I'm struggling to imagine a word long enough that it could irretrievably disturb a whole first line. Even a small nudge to kerning in either direction will make a significant difference, given a sentence in a published book has an average of probably 10-12 words.
 

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Are you familiar with kerning? You can do this in MS-Word (although they have it hidden under a couple layers of menu), and it can help quite a bit with individual lines that have length or spacing problems. But you really do need to upgrade your learning about how these programs function.

caw

I didn't know that. Dang. I'll definitely investigate.
 

Gaston

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Are you familiar with kerning? You can do this in MS-Word (although they have it hidden under a couple layers of menu), and it can help quite a bit with individual lines that have length or spacing problems. But you really do need to upgrade your learning about how these programs function.

caw

Good to know, but the program has automatic tracking that you can see tightening the letters as you add words. I find adding words is just the easiest outside of dialogues.

Dialogues are more constrained by spoken economy and spoken style, so with those it is easier to add a lot of 3 dot punctuation, or comas, rather than words... Because of fixing my funky lines, many small things were improved.

Gaston
 

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Good to know, but the program has automatic tracking that you can see tightening the letters as you add words. I find adding words is just the easiest outside of dialogues.

Dialogues are more constrained by spoken economy and spoken style, so with those it is easier to add a lot of 3 dot punctuation, or comas, rather than words... Because of fixing my funky lines, many small things were improved.

Gaston

You can't just add commas or ellipses to stuff randomly and have it be correct.
 

Gaston

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What do you mean by correct? Spoken dialogue can have variations... You can even add "hmm"... G.
 

cornflake

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What do you mean by correct? Spoken dialogue can have variations... You can even add "hmm"... G.

Yes, you can add 'hmm.' You, can't, just, add... commas...and, ellipses.
 

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Good to know, but the program has automatic tracking that you can see tightening the letters as you add words. I find adding words is just the easiest outside of dialogues.

Dialogues are more constrained by spoken economy and spoken style, so with those it is easier to add a lot of 3 dot punctuation, or comas, rather than words... Because of fixing my funky lines, many small things were improved.

Gaston

What I don't understand is if something's been edited to make it all polished, why anyone would stuff up the shine by adding unnecessary words and punctuation.

Also dialogue doesn't have to extend right across the page, so I dunno why you'd add anything to that.
 

Harlequin

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But it's pointless to do that -_-

As soon as you convert it to eBook it will change layout anyway. Plus kindles allow you to make text bigger to read so anyone who adjusts text size would be changing your layout, too.

And finally, different e readers look different, so unless you are testing your ms on every e reader you can't control for his it appears anyway.

The book will be full of unnecessary bizarre punctuation for no gain.
 

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It seems to me the problem is in part unavoidable: If a big word is at the end of the first line of any paragraph, and it gets shoved to the next line, then there is no adjustment possible by drawing in from a previous line. This why the first line of a paragraph is often "airy"...
This problem is solved by turning on the hyphenation. If you choose to stick with Word, turn on hyphenation. Before publishing, review every single hyphenated word to make sure that you can tolerate the word being hyphenated (it's not recommended for proper nouns, etc.)

Whatever you do, do not attempt to self-hyphenate by sticking en dashes in. Any additional editing and formatting will push these words away from the line break and stick you with a lot of le-mons. I've seen this in ebooks where the author forced hyphenation for the text version, resulting in randomly hyphenated, non-breaking words peppering the text.

In Word, if your section break falls directly at the end of a paragraph, there will often be huge gaps between the words in the last line. The simple fix is another paragraph mark at the end, so the section break stands alone and doesn't screw things up.


Words occasionally are hyphened.

Trade publications do infrequently have orphans/widows. But only very infrequently. Unless every word in the sentence is monstrously long, there should usually be some room for shuffling.
Thank you! I read this whole thread wondering when someone was finally going to bring up what seems to be the screamingly obvious issue. lol
 

Gaston

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But it's pointless to do that -_-

As soon as you convert it to eBook it will change layout anyway. Plus kindles allow you to make text bigger to read so anyone who adjusts text size would be changing your layout, too.

And finally, different e readers look different, so unless you are testing your ms on every e reader you can't control for his it appears anyway.

The book will be full of unnecessary bizarre punctuation for no gain.

True enough about E-books.

However, It is not pointless if you only care for the paper copy (this distinction is in fact the entire subject of my novel, hence the subtitle; "Paper is our Flesh").

Second, the revision is never worse than the original. Only in critical dialogue turning points are the changes harder, or better left alone.

Gaston
 

Gaston

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What I don't understand is if something's been edited to make it all polished, why anyone would stuff up the shine by adding unnecessary words and punctuation.

Also dialogue doesn't have to extend right across the page, so I dunno why you'd add anything to that.

A long dialogue reply can be several lines.

What I also found is that the fewest words possible, to convey an idea, does not always read the smoothest. While a sound notion generally, writing advice is often a little over emphatic on cutting words out.

Gaston
 

Gaston

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This problem is solved by turning on the hyphenation. If you choose to stick with Word, turn on hyphenation. Before publishing, review every single hyphenated word to make sure that you can tolerate the word being hyphenated (it's not recommended for proper nouns, etc.)

Whatever you do, do not attempt to self-hyphenate by sticking en dashes in. Any additional editing and formatting will push these words away from the line break and stick you with a lot of le-mons. I've seen this in ebooks where the author forced hyphenation for the text version, resulting in randomly hyphenated, non-breaking words peppering the text.

In Word, if your section break falls directly at the end of a paragraph, there will often be huge gaps between the words in the last line. The simple fix is another paragraph mark at the end, so the section break stands alone and doesn't screw things up.


Thank you! I read this whole thread wondering when someone was finally going to bring up what seems to be the screamingly obvious issue. lol

Now THAT appears to the crux of the matter... The old "tight" 1985 Stephen King paperback I mentioned (The Talisman) is indeed hyphenated, but extremely rarely. P. 319 and 531 so far...

There are still some spread lines I might have tinkered with, but nothing bad.

In Word, if your section break falls directly at the end of a paragraph, there will often be huge gaps between the words in the last line. The simple fix is another paragraph mark at the end, so the section break stands alone and doesn't screw things up.

That could be yet another fix, but there were few section breaks in mine. Probably accounted for the worse lines though... Thanks for this.


Gaston
 

Helix

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Now THAT appears to the crux of the matter... The old "tight" 1985 Stephen King paperback I mentioned (The Talisman) is indeed hyphenated, but extremely rarely. P. 319 and 531 so far...

There are still some spread lines I might have tinkered with, but nothing bad.

In Word, if your section break falls directly at the end of a paragraph, there will often be huge gaps between the words in the last line. The simple fix is another paragraph mark at the end, so the section break stands alone and doesn't screw things up.

That could be yet another fix, but there were few section breaks in mine. Probably accounted for the worse lines though... Thanks for this.


Gaston

Yes. It helps to understand the software you're using. It saves a lot of work in the long run. (Also in the short run.)