Is this editing as bad as I think, and was I out of line in how I handled it?

Wesley_S_Lewis

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When my publisher sent me the uncorrected proof of my novel, I told them I felt that it had not been professionally copy edited, and I asked for their assurance that they would work with me to make it right.

They, in turn, cancelled my publishing contract.

This:

"No," he replied, "just a message from Meredith Higgins, suggesting that all New Wave associates forgo attending any of tonight's receptions,"—his voice assumed a high, preachy tone—"'lest we appear callous in the face of New Wave's recent loss.'"

was changed to this:

error-1.jpg


This:

"It would be a far cry from eight hundred thousand dollars. A ten-thousand-dollar stack could be replicated with"—she did the calculations in her head—"less than three hundred dollars. That means we'd need"—more quick math—"just under twenty-four thousand dollars in all."

was changed to this:

error-2.jpg


This:

"Yes," she said, turning the thong inside out. "See"—she pointed to the crotch—"these actually have a gusset lining."

was changed to this:

error-3.jpg


This:

What she'd gotten instead was the crushing realization that her hopes for the coming months—being in a real relationship by fall, introducing him to her family over the holidays, going someplace tropical for her fortieth birthday—were never going to come true.

was changed to this:

What she'd gotten instead was the crushing realization that her hopes for the coming months, being in a real relationship by fall, introducing him to her family over the holidays, going someplace tropical for her fortieth birthday, were never going to come true.

This:

That was followed by a loud crash, followed by a lot of cursing, followed by someone—she was pretty sure it was the man in the blue shirt—suggesting they turn it on its side.

was changed to this:

That was followed by a loud crash, followed by a lot of cursing, followed by someone, she was pretty sure it was the man in the blue shirt, suggesting they turn it on its side.

This:

"To Dudka, this is just business. Going after a bystander like you doesn't make good business sense—he'd have nothing to gain and everything to lose."

was changed to this:

"To Dudka, this is just business. Going after a bystander like you doesn't make good business sense, he'd have nothing to gain and everything to lose."

You can see a copy of the actual correspondence here: https://absolutewrite.com/forums/sh...e-feedback&p=10464854&viewfull=1#post10464854

I felt that I was at the end of my rope and needed to lay my cards on the table, but it sure feels like crap knowing that, after six months of thinking I was going to be traditionally published, I'm not going to be.
 
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Old Hack

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In my opinion, that's poor editing.

Better to remain unpublished than to be published badly. You've dodged a bullet.
 

Maryn

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I'm going out on a limb here to say that those edits are appalling, introducing errors that were not in the original. They also overstep the bounds of normal editing, actually rewriting your text. Not acceptable.

And we're seeing more of this lately. The last thread I opened was one with a similar issue.

I second Old Hack: You have dodged a bullet.
 

novicewriter

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Oh, wow! Yes, that editing was as bad as you thought it was. With all the commas they'd added after quotation marks, I'd wondered if they were a U.K. publisher (because that's how U.K. publishers edit over there). See: http://www.thepunctuationguide.com/british-versus-american-style.html But, then, I read that you mentioned they were located in Maryland.

Plus, even their final email to you--terminating their contract with you--is missing a couple of punctuation marks. So, yes; you're right: they obviously don't know how to edit according to American English standards. I thought your email to them was very professional and detailed.

I'm sorry to hear that you went through all that.
 
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talktidy

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WTF? I'm a Brit and I don't punctuate dialogue like that.

Take heart. Old Hack knows what she's talking about.
 

Chris P

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I used to provide freelance copy editing and proofreading. If I turned in a job with those errors, it would have come back to me to fix for free.

What it looks like to me is they did a global find and replace of your em-dashes (which you use correctly but quite a lot for modern tastes), and the grammar wizard thought the quotes went with the (incorrectly) inserted ellipsis.

This publisher is in Maryland? There was a notorious vanity publisher that's now folded (finally, after 15 years of shady deals) in Frederick, and call me traumatized, but I wonder if this is a knockoff from their shipwreck? ETA: Actually, I take that back. This publisher would have ran the book with the errors, ignored your corrections, and ghosted you (at best, threatened legal action in many cases) except for emailed "special services" offers you have to pay for that other publishers do for free.


ETA: As far as how you handled it, move on. Feel free to share this experience in Bewares, Recommendations and Background Checks forum here.
 
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Old Hack

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Oh, wow! Yes, that editing was as bad as you thought it was. With all the commas they'd added after quotation marks, I'd wondered if they were a U.K. publisher (because that's how U.K. publishers edit over there).

If the full stop or comma is part of the quote it goes inside the quotation marks. If you're quoting speech then again, the commas or full stops go inside the quotation marks. However, if the quote does not have terminal punctuation, but it falls at the end of the sentence, then that sentence's terminal punctuation goes outside the quotation marks.

The edits given to the OP are neither consistent nor correct. And they are most definitely not how things are done in the UK.
 

VeryBigBeard

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Some serious abuse of the ellipsis has occurred.
 

Undercover

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I'm sorry you had to go through this. But again, as everyone else said, you're better off.
 

novicewriter

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If the full stop or comma is part of the quote it goes inside the quotation marks. If you're quoting speech then again, the commas or full stops go inside the quotation marks. However, if the quote does not have terminal punctuation, but it falls at the end of the sentence, then that sentence's terminal punctuation goes outside the quotation marks.

The edits given to the OP are neither consistent nor correct. And they are most definitely not how things are done in the UK.

Oh. I guess I might've misworded what I meant to say. Basically, I guess what I meant was that I'm more familiar with seeing British or people from other countries using more commas outside of punctuation, online, than Americans, so (as you mentioned, the editing style from the publisher that the OP mentioned was inconsistent), I was just saying that, as I was glancing at the publisher's edits, I was confused by the inconsistency of their edits and was wondering what type of publishing style they were attempting to follow and what country they were from, whether it was the U.K.

But, yes, I am more aware that, sometimes, outside commas are used in American English; I've even used it, myself, occasionally. It's just that I don't see it used as much in the books and news articles I read (that are published in the U.S.) or during conversations, online.
 
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cool pop

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I just have to ask, did you check these people out BEFORE you signed with them to make sure they were reputable?
 

Fuchsia Groan

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While different writers and editors may disagree on the virtues of em-dashes, I agree with Chris P that you used them correctly. Replacing them universally with commas and ellipses is bizarre and, in some cases, creates comma splices. If I were the copyeditor and thought you overused the "em-dashes to insert action in the middle of dialogue" pattern, I would make a global comment asking if you could rewrite the sentences to separate action and dialogue (i.e., make the action its own sentence), not repunctuate in a way that's simply wrong.

Semi-related rant: Lately I've been catching occasional sentences like this in ARCs and even finished books from Big Five imprints:
"The gun is over there," she pointed at the desk, "so just go get it."
In my view, using action AS dialogue tag (without the em-dashes to separate it) is still 100 percent not okay, though clearly some editors disagree. Maybe your copyeditor was following this pattern.
 

Wesley_S_Lewis

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I just have to ask, did you check these people out BEFORE you signed with them to make sure they were reputable?

This is what I knew about them before I signed a contract:

1. Their contract is pretty good (no rights grab, reasonable clauses regarding reversion of rights).
2. They pay a small advance ($500).
3. They do an actual print run plus eBooks and audio books.
4. They have distribution through Independent Publishers Group.
5. They're recognized by International Thriller Writers.
6. They were started by a husband and wife team to sell the husband's books.
7. They put on an annual conference (which, coincidentally, is taking place this weekend).
8. Their covers are pretty hit-or-miss (some look professional; some look like third-tier self-published covers).
9. An author on this forum complained that the publisher expects authors to handle all marketing/publicity.
10. They don't sell a lot of books (terrible Amazon rankings; an author on this forum said he was unlikely to ever earn out his advance).
11. They told me they only plan to publish five to six books next year, which I took as a good sign.
12. They were the only publisher with whom I got to the contract phase, and I felt that the pros outweighed the cons.

Basically, they knew all of the right things to say and offer, so I ignored the inconsistent covers, the low sales, and the lack of marketing. Had I known about their subpar editorial process, that would have given me pause, but I didn't see it mentioned anywhere.
 

Wesley_S_Lewis

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Semi-related rant: Lately I've been catching occasional sentences like this in ARCs and even finished books from Big Five imprints:

In my view, using action AS dialogue tag (without the em-dashes to separate it) is still 100 percent not okay, though clearly some editors disagree. Maybe your copyeditor was following this pattern.

Yes, I think that's what they were going for. I agree that it's still wrong, but at least it would have made sense.
 

Fuchsia Groan

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Based on your experience, I would definitely ask a small publisher for their style sheet before signing with them. It doesn't seem like something an author should be required to do, but a "no em-dashes" rule or something comparably absurd (in my view) could be a deal breaker. Or, if I was okay with their stylistic quirks, I'd welcome the opportunity to make the changes myself. When I worked with an editor, she clued me in to style-sheet stuff like using Oxford commas and closing up em-dashes way before I got to the copyediting phase. Super helpful! (They also had no weird [non-Chicago] style dicta, and they allowed room for my usage preferences, which I hope is standard.)

Anyway, I'm sorry you had this experience, but it has been educational. I hope it's not common among small presses.
 

Wesley_S_Lewis

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Based on your experience, I would definitely ask a small publisher for their style sheet before signing with them. It doesn't seem like something an author should be required to do, but a "no em-dashes" rule or something comparably absurd (in my view) could be a deal breaker. Or, if I was okay with their stylistic quirks, I'd welcome the opportunity to make the changes myself. When I worked with an editor, she clued me in to style-sheet stuff like using Oxford commas and closing up em-dashes way before I got to the copyediting phase. Super helpful! (They also had no weird [non-Chicago] style dicta, and they allowed room for my usage preferences, which I hope is standard.)

Anyway, I'm sorry you had this experience, but it has been educational. I hope it's not common among small presses.

Thanks for the suggestion about asking to see a publisher's style sheet. That's something I think I'll do in the future.
 

cool pop

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This is what I knew about them before I signed a contract:

1. Their contract is pretty good (no rights grab, reasonable clauses regarding reversion of rights).
2. They pay a small advance ($500).
3. They do an actual print run plus eBooks and audio books.
4. They have distribution through Independent Publishers Group.
5. They're recognized by International Thriller Writers.
6. They were started by a husband and wife team to sell the husband's books.
7. They put on an annual conference (which, coincidentally, is taking place this weekend).
8. Their covers are pretty hit-or-miss (some look professional; some look like third-tier self-published covers).
9. An author on this forum complained that the publisher expects authors to handle all marketing/publicity.
10. They don't sell a lot of books (terrible Amazon rankings; an author on this forum said he was unlikely to ever earn out his advance).
11. They told me they only plan to publish five to six books next year, which I took as a good sign.
12. They were the only publisher with whom I got to the contract phase, and I felt that the pros outweighed the cons.

Basically, they knew all of the right things to say and offer, so I ignored the inconsistent covers, the low sales, and the lack of marketing. Had I known about their subpar editorial process, that would have given me pause, but I didn't see it mentioned anywhere.


Yikes. :scared:I see a ton of red signs in the info you learned before signing. I never would've signed with them knowing any of that. One thing writers need to always do is look at the books a pub publishes. Check them out to see how the writing is and if the books are being edited. That's the only way to know for sure if the publisher will do a decent job. If they got crappy covers, etc., pass them by. If they can't take the time to produce a good cover that tells you how much work they plan to put into the rest of the book.

The good thing is you're out of it now. Imagine if they hadn't let you out and you'd been stuck for who knows how long? If you haven't already, do your fellow writers a favor and warn them. Post this publisher in Bewares and Backgrounds if they aren't already. Save others from this headache.

Now back to filing my nails. :e2file:
 
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veinglory

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The editors seems not to know how to punctuate interrupted speech. If they let you STET it that alone wouldn't be a deal killer. But when you add the sloppy blurb and covers it does add up.
 
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kevinwaynewilliams

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Semi-related rant: Lately I've been catching occasional sentences like this in ARCs and even finished books from Big Five imprints:
"The gun is over there," she pointed at the desk, "so just go get it."

In my view, using action AS dialogue tag (without the em-dashes to separate it) is still 100 percent not okay, though clearly some editors disagree. Maybe your copyeditor was following this pattern.

I think em-dashes are fading from popularity in that application. I fully approve of your quoted sentence and would punctuate it that way myself. The crap that is the subject of this post isn't correct by anyone's standard.
 

Fuchsia Groan

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I think em-dashes are fading from popularity in that application. I fully approve of your quoted sentence and would punctuate it that way myself. The crap that is the subject of this post isn't correct by anyone's standard.

I wouldn't and would fight anyone who tried to get me to insert action in dialogue that way; to me, it's a comma splice, pure and simple, because the action is its own complete sentence. I'm embarrassed for the publishers when I see that in books. But I'm a pretty old-school editor, and this is a topic for other threads...
 

Devil Ledbetter

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I wouldn't and would fight anyone who tried to get me to insert action in dialogue that way; to me, it's a comma splice, pure and simple, because the action is its own complete sentence. I'm embarrassed for the publishers when I see that in books. But I'm a pretty old-school editor, and this is a topic for other threads...
I wouldn't call that old school. I'd call it correct.