Does this make my setting less jarring?

The Second Moon · Oct 2, 2018

In my story the sea is lava, the currency is gold coins, people fight with swords and travel on ships, and there is modern day technology. I have been told the modern day technology doesn't fit my world, but I can't write historical!

I have an idea about how to make the modern day technology less jarring, but I'm not sure if it'll work. Here's my idea:

The world was like a 1500 century world with magic, but one day a portal opened from another world in the middle of the ocean. Lava, along with modern day technology, poured out of the portal. The lava only touched the sea (the sea was magical), making it lava, and the modern technology hit the land. People considered this a good thing, but are afraid if they forget their old ways of sword fighting and other traditions, that they will end up like the world where the lava and technology came from. So therefore, they continue their old ways but embrace the new technology. (all this happens way before my story)

Is this a good story for how my world came to be this way? If not, what can I change?

Curlz · Oct 2, 2018

The explanation makes perfect sense to me. I'm just curious what modern technology you got lined up next to the swords - television? ipads? flying cars? hoverboards? And are there people who are abandoning the old ways and replacing them with new technology anyways?

The Second Moon · Oct 2, 2018

Curlz said:
The explanation makes perfect sense to me. I'm just curious what modern technology you got lined up next to the swords - television? ipads? flying cars? hoverboards? And are there people who are abandoning the old ways and replacing them with new technology anyways?

Okay, thanks.
The modern technology is things you would see today, nothing futuristic like flying cars.
I haven't thought about if there are people who want to fully embrace the new technology, but that gives me some ideas. Thanks!

Curlz · Oct 2, 2018

I think the modern things will seem "jarring" with the medieval ways of life if people act illogically. For example, in medieval times people used to fight over things, especially over precious things. And it was normal, the more powerful ruled over the less powerful. So if somebody in your world acquires a boxful of Nike trainers it will make sense for somebody else to covet those and maybe try to steal them. That will be the logical thing to do because those were the medieval ways. The modern tech will fit in nicely, it's just another very desireable item. Or, if somebody found a halogen oven then surely the king will be interested and will want to acquire it for their palace, so they may send some troops to take that nice halogen oven from whoever found it, regardless of that person's will. But if in your world everybody finds some of those valuable things and nobody tries to fight them for such possessions, it may not make sense. It's not exactly "jarring" but it will look quite pointless to have Nike trainers or halogen ovens without them being any different from the regular medieval things.

fenyo · Oct 2, 2018

I think you can combine magic and technology, many have done it.

But you need to make it convincing in the story. Opening a portal that just "poured out of the portal." not sure how that happen. are there people that bring it, aliens, robots. just old junk that push out into the portal.

you can say that it take time to adopt the technology and not every one want it. even in our world not every one have a car, some still use animals to travel.

benbenberi · Oct 2, 2018

I'm kind of interested in that lava sea. If the ocean has turned into lava, how is everything on land not dead from heat & poisonous gases? The largest lava fields in Earth's past (the Siberian traps, later theDeccan traps) were only a fraction that size, and they caused massive global extinctions (up to 90% of all species) -- how is your world managing to cope? Also, unless the "modern technology" is way beyond our level of technology, how can they have ships that are capable of sailing on a lava sea and carrying alive people from place to place?

On a totally different track, hand-waving all that aside... how has your world adopted "modern technology"? Since technology is not magic, it can't just hand wave itself into ubiquity. Does the portal also provide the industrial base and the knowledge base to make modern stuff? A car is useless without roads and a network of places to refuel (gas stations or electric chargers) -- where does the gas or electric power come from? Who's paving the roads? A cell phone without its communication network and without the internet behind it is just a pretty, fragile, and utterly useless object. Does the modern technology in your world include electricity? How is it generated and transmitted? What about the materials that modern technology depends on -- all the metals, plastics, chemicals, rare earths, machine tools, transistors, supply chains, etc? And all the specialized skills and knowledge that are required to make stuff and keep it working? In a world where the sea is lava and the prior state of development was medieval, where do you even get enough people away from food-production to staff the industry that's required for modern technology to exist?

Also, do you know why we don't use gold coins anymore? This isn't the place for an economics lecture. But bottom line, an economy that depends on gold coins to run is an economy that really isn't running.

Honestly -- I think that if you want a story in a magic world with a lava sea, gold coins, sword fighting, and modern technology, you're going to have to just accept that it's a wild, freaky, wholly unrealistic premise, and tell your story anyway. If you want to tip a hat toward "plausibility," let the gold and the swords be something like a prized cultural heritage (which people know don't quite fit the modern world, but they're attached to anyway). Avoid calling attention to flimsy backstory, but keep people focused on the cool stuff you want them to pay attention to.

Introversion · Oct 2, 2018

I have similar questions as benbenberi’s.

What’s jarring, and would cause me to have a hard time suspending disbelief, is the juxtaposition between what’s clearly implausible in our world (sea of lava that ships can sail upon, and that doesn’t cool off, or commit global extinctions) and modern tech exactly as we have it today (cell phones, Internet, etc). You could avoid this by substituting magical devices for the mundane. Think of the owls of Harry Potter — would’ve been much odder had the kids all been taking cellphone calls or texts from home, IMO. Phones and Internet are an implementation of particular ideas (communication, knowledge sharing, etc) that you could implement in a different way.

Or, feel free to completely ignore that advice. I can name novels that I found wildly implausible but which sold well and are loved by many. :tongue

Twick · Oct 2, 2018

I understand the basic thinking, but how far do you want to take this? If people have cell phones and computers, are they still writing with quill pens "so they won't forget how?" Do they text by carrier pigeon? Why would people fight with swords as a cultural agreement, even though one person with an automatic rifle could take them all down?

I'm afraid that "we might forget how to do X if the portal goes away" isn't a very realistic explanation. People will take the simplest, most convenient way of doing something *now* rather than worry about downstream complications (see "global warming").

I'm afraid that three things - "romantic" fantasy icons like swords, "modern" technology elsewhere and "realism" will not work together. One of these has to go. My vote off the island is for the "realism," because that's not what people read fantasy for. Go for the swords and cellphones, and the lava-technology spewing portal, and leave the jury-rigging to make it "realistic" alone.

KBooks · Oct 2, 2018

I think different settings can be sold depending on how plausible you make them. The Kate Daniels series (if you've read it) has a blend of magic and tech because magic fades in and out of the world in waves and makes tech stop working when it's "on." Therefore people no longer fly in planes because they could crash at any moment if a magic wave hits. They still use cell phones, but the cell phones don't work when magic is up. They have cars with both electrical generators and magic engines, and ride horses.

That said, in order for me to buy your explanation, I would need plausible reasons for why characters would forego tech that would make their lives much more convenient. Are they anti-tech zealots? Did something happen that freaked them out to tech?

I believe there was one scene in your opener on a spaceship. I would need a good explanation for why characters would embrace something as high-tech as a spaceship, but still be going around sword-fighting with 15th century level tech, using quill pens (why? quill pens just don't fit in my mind with spaceship) and shunning cell phones. In other words, however you decide to go, be consisitent.

The Second Moon · Oct 2, 2018

Just checked on and there are a heap of replies. I will try to answer the questions I can.

Also, do you know why we don't use gold coins anymore? This isn't the place for an economics lecture. But bottom line, an economy that depends on gold coins to run is an economy that really isn't running.

I just looked it up. I guess the coins wouldn't have to be make of gold and could be named "gold coins" because of their color. Much like how nickels aren't purely nickle.

I'm kind of interested in that lava sea. If the ocean has turned into lava, how is everything on land not dead from heat & poisonous gases? The largest lava fields in Earth's past (the Siberian traps, later the Deccan traps) were only a fraction that size, and they caused massive global extinctions (up to 90% of all species)

*sucks in breath through clenched teeth as I realize that a lava sea would kill people* Well... I guess I need to do more research on lava, but I am definitely keeping it because there's a young ship captain and he's afraid of fire. The other captains think he can't be a good sailor because they mistakenly think he's also afraid of lava. I all can think of is that the people of this world are immune to the poison gases emitted by lava.

Honestly -- I think that if you want a story in a magic world with a lava sea, gold coins, sword fighting, and modern technology, you're going to have to just accept that it's a wild, freaky, wholly unrealistic premise, and tell your story anyway. If you want to tip a hat toward "plausibility," let the gold and the swords be something like a prized cultural heritage (which people know don't quite fit the modern world, but they're attached to anyway). Avoid calling attention to flimsy backstory, but keep people focused on the cool stuff you want them to pay attention to.

This is what I've been doing. I just wanted to be clear on what the history of this world was.

On a totally different track, hand-waving all that aside... how has your world adopted "modern technology"? Since technology is not magic, it can't just hand wave itself into ubiquity. Does the portal also provide the industrial base and the knowledge base to make modern stuff? A car is useless without roads and a network of places to refuel (gas stations or electric chargers) -- where does the gas or electric power come from? Who's paving the roads? A cell phone without its communication network and without the internet behind it is just a pretty, fragile, and utterly useless object. Does the modern technology in your world include electricity? How is it generated and transmitted? What about the materials that modern technology depends on -- all the metals, plastics, chemicals, rare earths, machine tools, transistors, supply chains, etc? And all the specialized skills and knowledge that are required to make stuff and keep it working? In a world where the sea is lava and the prior state of development was medieval, where do you even get enough people away from food-production to staff the industry that's required for modern technology to exist?

Wow, I didn't think of any of this. :gone:

But I suppose I shouldn't focus so much on the back story of the world, like benbenberi said. I need to focus on the story.

Conrad Adamson · Oct 2, 2018

The tech infrastructure is the biggest problem for me. A historical progression of technology makes more sense, but there could be reasons for a decline such a guild or conclave that controls the knowledge behind tech were killed off in surprise attack, or set off something big accidentally, etc. and there are not many people who know how to build it remain.

The fear of fire related to sailing could work with a different mechanism such as a high frequency of fire breathing creatures with a wide range that often harass sailors.

It sounds like you have some ideas in the works, maybe just more working out the circumstances to support your ideas.

BT Lamprey · Oct 3, 2018

There's a SEA OF FIRE. You need to just throw plausibility out the window.

I would recommend establishing the tone very early in the work, with other impossible details. That way, the SEA OF FIRE can just be one of many outlandish ideas.

Discworld is a good prototype for this kind of setting.

cmhbob · Oct 3, 2018

Not exactly the greatest movie to use as a reference, but Ice Pirates had both swords and spaceships. Yeah, it was campy, so maybe that's why I let it go, but it didn't bother me.

The only thing about the lava that bothers me is how you keep it warm and fluid. It's liquid rock from the center of the earth. Once it's exposed to the air, it starts cooling. Once it starts cooling, it starts accumulating into islands and mountains. Dealing with that would be a bigger issue for me as a reader.

Twick · Oct 3, 2018

I suspect that, if you're using portals and magic, it doesn't have to be "real" lava. Simply something that is fluid, relatively hot, and dangerous (and possibly a really nice fiery red), without melting the surface of the earth or suffocating everyone. People could even call it "lava" because that's what it looks like.

cmhbob · Oct 3, 2018

Twick said:
I suspect that, if you're using portals and magic, it doesn't have to be "real" lava. Simply something that is fluid, relatively hot, and dangerous (and possibly a really nice fiery red), without melting the surface of the earth or suffocating everyone. People could even call it "lava" because that's what it looks like.

For that matter, who says you have to call it lava, unless this is Earth.

Introversion · Oct 3, 2018

FWIW, Martha Wells’ fantasy “The Serpent Sea” has a “boiling sea”, but it’s just sea water, not lava. People cross it in metal ships that can levitate (not aircraft, but ships that can lower themselves into and sail upon normal seas).

(This was a small isolated sea and not all the world’s oceans. Obviously your world’s ecology doesn’t need to work like Earth’s, but if Earth’s oceans boiled, we’d die as surely as if they were all lava.)

Brightdreamer · Oct 3, 2018

IMHO, for this to work, you're going to need a very strong suspension of disbelief - which will require some manner of thinking through how your world works, unfortunately. Even utterly bizarre settings (like China Mieville) are believable only because the characters function believably in them. You might read some Mieville and other authors who specialize in weird, dreamlike settings.

It might be a good idea to focus on your favorite, most plot-relevant Weird Thing and dial back (or very, very soft-focus) the rest. Is it the lavalike sea? The modern tech within a medieval culture? The question of the world-portals?

Brightdreamer · Oct 3, 2018

cmhbob said:
Not exactly the greatest movie to use as a reference, but Ice Pirates had both swords and spaceships. Yeah, it was campy, so maybe that's why I let it go, but it didn't bother me.

Well, so did Krull - plus alien swords that sometimes fired lasers and sometimes didn't... and there's a reason Rifftrax picked it for a good ribbing. (Spoiler alert: it was lousy, though not specifically because of the weird elements. The weird elements never clicked together into a worthwhile story, nor were the characters interesting enough to carry the viewer beyond those elements.)

The Second Moon · Oct 4, 2018

The only thing about the lava that bothers me is how you keep it warm and fluid. It's liquid rock from the center of the earth. Once it's exposed to the air, it starts cooling. Once it starts cooling, it starts accumulating into islands and mountains. Dealing with that would be a bigger issue for me as a reader.

I thought of that too in the early stages of world building, but I think Twick had a good idea. (Twick's idea below)

I suspect that, if you're using portals and magic, it doesn't have to be "real" lava. Simply something that is fluid, relatively hot, and dangerous (and possibly a really nice fiery red), without melting the surface of the earth or suffocating everyone. People could even call it "lava" because that's what it looks like.

I thought this was a really good idea along with chmbob's add-in on the idea (see below)

For that matter, who says you have to call it lava, unless this is Earth.

Thanks fellow AWers!

EDIT: Now I just have to think of a name for my "lava".

BT Lamprey · Oct 5, 2018

Mieville is a really good suggestion for inspiration on this type of setting, but I would recommend Railsea, in particular.

Thomas Vail · Oct 5, 2018

The Second Moon said:
EDIT: Now I just have to think of a name for my "lava".

Don't drink the firewater!

One thing you have to worry about 'big ideas' like the seas being lava, is that if you don't follow a few logical steps, it's going to lead to the Futurama pic, 'This just raises MORE questions!' Or look at the TVtropes page, 'ConvectionSchmonvection.' At minimum, real lava is about 1,500F, and radiating all that heat constantly (until it would cool, if things were normal). The problem called up with a lava sea - so 70% of the world's surface is at least 1,500 degrees? Not long until the rest of it is that hot too!

So even if it isn't really lava, but something else hot and burny, people shouldn't be building cities right up to the edge of the ocean, not without some serious magical protection to ward away the effects of a constant 500F (or whatever) burning sea.

AwP_writer · Oct 6, 2018

Perhaps the entire sea isn't "lava", but it's spotty all over the sea and a common hazard for sailors. As for swords, perhaps if no firearms came through the portal, nobody on this world has invented them yet.

aryheron · Oct 13, 2018

Before I comment my opinion (though I DO have to say, the concept of the sea being lava is wicked cool)... how did technology touch the land and come to be? Like, technology has to be developed by inventors, so... I’m a little bit lost with that. I’m so sorry if this is explained in one of the previous posts.

Lehssner · Dec 19, 2018

I agree with BT Lamprey. Not everything has to make sense, this is fantasy. As long as there are great characters and a cool plot nobody will mind how unlikely a lava sea is. While the modern day technology is unusual I don't think you need to have a portal to explain it. In my opinion is would be better to just have it be that way without including an explanation. This world can be however you want it to be and while it doesn't need to fit the stereotypes of Si-Fi or Fantasy. There doesn't have to be an explanation for the modern day technology. I couldn't really tell you how much I would enjoy it without reading something you've written but I feel it has a lot of potential!

EvilPenguin · Dec 19, 2018

You've already got a lot of great input here but my biggest concerns about the modern technology is keeping it functioning. If all this tech just appeared in a medieval setting then it's very unlikely that anyone would even know how to use any of it for a long time. And even if they do learn the function of it, as soon as it breaks (because modern technology ALWAYS breaks) then who is going to fix it? A medieval society is not going to have the tools or knowledge to keep any of the tech working for very long.

My biggest question is: What is the purpose of having the modern tech in your story? Is it connected to the main plot in some way? Or is it just there because it would make the world more interesting?

Does this make my setting less jarring?

The Second Moon

Curlz

cutsie-pie

The Second Moon

Curlz

cutsie-pie

fenyo

benbenberi

practical experience, FTW

Introversion

Pie aren't squared, pie are round!

Twick

KBooks

The Second Moon

Conrad Adamson

BT Lamprey

cmhbob

Did...did I do that?

Twick

cmhbob

Did...did I do that?

Introversion

Pie aren't squared, pie are round!

Brightdreamer

Just Another Lazy Perfectionist

Brightdreamer

Just Another Lazy Perfectionist

The Second Moon

BT Lamprey

Thomas Vail

What?

AwP_writer

aryheron

Lehssner

EvilPenguin