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Adverb Problem. Any Advice?

musicblind

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Hi!

So, last month I wrote an 88,000-word novel and showed my Mom the first draft. While she is my Mom, she is a retired English teacher in her 70's, has read a book every week of her life, and is brutal in her honesty.

After reading the first few chapters she had a long list of things I did wrong.

One of the main things on the list was I wrote the 88,000-word novel without using a single LY adverb. I thought this was an accomplishment because it was tough for me, but she wasn't impressed.

Mom felt the complete lack of LY adverbs made some of the prose dry and unnatural. It also forced me to use some obscure words in order to avoid any LY adverb. She didn't feel all of the obscure words were bad but some became a distraction.

Here's the thing, I'm afraid to put any LY adverbs into the book. I have read rules saying LY adverbs are a hard no and should not be used. I don't want to write a book that would end up ignored by agents and publishers because it contained LY adverbs.

My Mom thinks I should consider sprinkling a few LY adverbs into the second draft. She thinks it will improve the flow.

My question: Should I? And if so, how many LY adverbs are acceptable in an 88,000-word book before it is considered unpublishable by literary agents and/or publishing houses?
 
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Fallen

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There's no advice out there that says -ly adverbs should be avoided entirely. It's like with everything else: use too many and the word becomes more noticeable than the images you're trying to produce, and it kicks the reader out of the story so they become English teachers with a red marker; use none, and you're not portraying natural narrative voice, or natural(ish) speech when you're writing dialogue. Yes you can use adverbs. Yes you can use contractions. Yes you can write your story your way, in your style.

Writers always look for better words, so it's not wrong that you're doing that!! But you need to relax your style into something the reader can relate to as well. And they use adverbs. :) Usually too many, but that's the balance you just have to find as writer: overuse v underuse.
 
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Harlequin

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Literally no agent on earth has a style sheet by which they count your adverbs on a per-page basis. Really, truly, it's not a big deal.

I use lots of adverbs and adjectives, because I have a tell-y style of writing. It's just how I do things (and may I say, it's rather useful for flash fiction). I get feedback to temper them, and I try not to overuse them, but otherwise I don't stress over it.

Or to quote CC Finlay (editor of F&SF): "Tools, not rules." :)

If I may, I'd like to direct you to this excellent article: http://emmadarwin.typepad.com/thisi...adverbs-why-its-nonsense-and-why-it-isnt.html
 
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musicblind

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Thank you so much! That article was a good counter to ones like:

Can We Just Lose The Adverb (Already)? -- http://www.vulture.com/2016/05/could-we-just-lose-the-adverb-already.html

and

Abolish The Adverbs -- https://www.writingforward.com/writing-tips/avoid-adverbs

and

The Case Against Adverbs -- https://www.visualthesaurus.com/cm/teachersatwork/the-case-against-adverbs/



An example from the book is the start of a chapter where a character contemplates justifications for suicide. (His justifications are flawed but that's on purpose.)

The chapter opens:


Every one commits suicide but most do it slow.

People smoke, gorge on food, and work themselves to death. For most, suicide was a lifestyle. For Hunter, it was a solution.



ProWritingAid, Grammarly, and my Mom keep wanting me to say:


Every one commits suicide but most do it slowly.


I had a lot of anxiety about opening a chapter with an LY adverb, even more than using them elsewhere in the book. Another example is a character who says the following about his friend stealing someone's girlfriend:


"Nigel wouldn’t do that. Would he?"

"Yes, he would. That is very much something Nigel Tuckerman would do."




My Mom thought it would read better as:

"Yes, he would. That is exactly something Nigel Tuckerman would do."


Her argument was that this particular teenager wouldn't say, "very much," and would instead say "exactly."

I thought about leaving it as:

"That is something Nigel Tuckerman would do."

However, that makes it sound bare bones and doesn't relay the cadence and precise amount of snark I was hoping for.

I really appreciate the article and advice you two shared. I also appreciate the perspective.

"Tools, not rules," is a good saying. I will try to remember that!
 
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Harlequin

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Dialogue is its own can of worms.

I try to avoid overuse of "really" and "very" in narrative because they're weak, but people rely on filter words to speak with in real life, so it sounds stilted to cut them out of dialogue. As an example.


The biggest problem with adverbs is when they are redundant. "He ran quickly" is lame. Running is always quick, so it doesn't bear repeating. If you mean even quicker than normal running, then maybe try "He sprinted" or something.
 
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talktidy

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I'm still working on a first draft and my work is peppered with adverbs. They help me get words down on the page, but I shall revisit them when I finish.

Even in a first draft, though, I've banned adverbs in dialogue attributions.
 

angeliz2k

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Adverbs are as much a part of our language as nouns and verbs. They are not inherently wrong.

The reason people advise using fewer -ly adverbs is that they often are used to prop up weak verbs. Use a really strong verb, and more often than not, you'll find you don't need any modifier to convey your meaning. Sometimes, though, that -ly adverb is just the right thing.

Also, grammatically, your mother is right. It must be "slowly", because it's modifying a verb. You can't just get rid of the -ly, because then you have an adjective, and you can't modify a verb with an adjective (unless you're writing colloquial dialogue).

ETA: If the "solution" for -ly adverbs is more awkward than the -ly adverb, then for heaven's sake just use the -ly adverb.

And adverbs in dialogue attribution are also not wrong (though some newer writers especially seem to take these to unnecessary heights (e.g. "he shouted loudly")).
 
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Lauram6123

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Pick up your favorite novel and page through it. You will likely notice that it does, in fact, have adverbs.

Steven King is quoted in your first link as saying, "The road to hell is paved with adverbs" and yet I just finished IT and can assure you that if the sentence called for an adverb, he used one. He just didn't go overboard.

Rather than eliminating all adverbs from your writing, what you should strive for is crafting sentences without unnecessary words. Very often, adverbs aren't necessary, especially if you use strong or evocative verbs.

So to me, the decision to use or not use an adverb depends entirely on what the sentence at hand requires rather than some general writing rule about avoiding adverbs. If the sentence needs one, I'm gonna use it.
 

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I did the same as you, OP, and have since learned that they are fine in moderation, especially in dialog.
 

Tazlima

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When people are first learning to write, avoiding adverbs can be a useful method of training them to choose their words thoughtfully and dig deeper for the right word rather than lazily modifying the wrong word, but that's all it is... a training exercise.

I think of adverbs like a calculator. When you're first learning to perform basic mathematical functions, you're not allowed to use a calculator because you're learning how to do the very things calculators are designed to process automatically. That's all well and good, but how silly would it be for math students to extrapolate from that experience, "calculators must never, ever be used in the future in any circumstance whatsoever?"

I do a lot of number crunching at my job, and you'd better believe I use calculators and program equations into Excel to my heart's content.
 
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Woollybear

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Calculators are a good analogy. I recall the point at which I realized every rule (or at least a good thwack of them) can be binned together and summed up as: "Don't take shortcuts in your final product."
 

quicklime

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the problem isn't the adverbs, it is their misuse in lazy, shitty writing.

"He ran quickly" isn't a particularly good sentence, because if he ran "slowly" that's probably jogging, and running is itself quick--if it wasn't quick enough, then he "sprinted."

He ran quickly isn't a book-killer, but page after page of it gets old, and they're lazy cheats, which don't give the kind of detail a more specific line might.

She smiled warmly
he ran quickly
he walked slowly
she said proudly

all sort of sap the potential of a more telling line. Sometimes that is appropriate for flow ("he came vigorously" is not a great line, but unless you're writing erotica probably plenty of detail without another 4 or 5 lines of seminal metaphors and descriptions of his quivering dick), but with a line like she said proudly, in particular, we should be able to SEE she said it with an element of pride, either in her actions, or her personality, or the words she actually used...…"she said proudly" weakens that by making it more universal and generic.

Adverbs aren't bad. They're easy. And easy often becomes a crutch for shitty writing. SHITTY WRITING IS BAD.
 

blacbird

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I have read rules saying LY adverbs are a hard no and should not be used.

Start with: THIS IS COMPLETE NONSENSE.

Repeat it, aloud, ten times.

A problem with LY adverbs is that too many inexperienced writers use TOO MANY of them. A second problem is that too many inexperienced writers use them when they are unnecessary and add nothing but useless words to the prose. A third problem is that too many inexperienced writers don't read enough of good writers to see how they use adverbs.

There exists no "rule" saying you should never use an LY adverb. Your mother is exactly correct. If you struggle, as you admit, to kludge around the use of such words, stop doing that.

Every word in your narrative needs to carry weight. Too often, LY adverbs don't do that. But not ALWAYS. Try to make sure that your sentences carry the load they need to carry. If that means using an LY adverb appropriateLY, then use one.

caw
 

neandermagnon

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Pick up your favorite novel and page through it. You will likely notice that it does, in fact, have adverbs.

Steven King is quoted in your first link as saying, "The road to hell is paved with adverbs" and yet I just finished IT and can assure you that if the sentence called for an adverb, he used one. He just didn't go overboard.

Agreed. And to add to that, the original expression "the road to hell is paved with good intentions" doesn't mean you should never have good intentions. It means that in spite of having good intentions, ill thought out actions can do a lot of harm. So to me "the road to hell is paved with adverbs" does not mean "never use adverbs" it means "think carefully how you use adverbs".
 

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English needs adverbs. They're crucial.

The issue is that over use of, well, pretty much anything, is over use.

Say what you mean. Say it the best way you can.

Have your characters (and your narrators) speak in the ways they would speak naturally.

Ask yourself if a word (any word) helps the sentence and the story or hinders it. If a word (or a sentence or a phrase hinders) remove it.
 
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BethS

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Hi!



I have read rules saying LY adverbs are a hard no and should not be used. I don't want to write a book that would end up ignored by agents and publishers because it contained LY adverbs.

There is nothing wrong with LY adverbs (or any adverb), unless they become a crutch for explaining what's already obvious. If used well, they can enliven the prose and express attitude, and do it concisely. Like every other part of speech, they're a tool. There's no particular number you can or can't use, but do use them thoughtfully, not scattered around like confetti.

I don't know who is saying no LY adverbs are allowed, but they're wrong.
 
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Chase

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Great advice above. However, I'm sure you didn't eliminate all adverbs. Many are termed natural flat adverbs, such as fast, then, however, once, and hundreds more--all of which don't end in "ly." We don't have adverbs like fastly, thenly, howeverly, or oncely :greenie.

In many ways worse than only using natural flat adverbs is to flatten adverbs by removing "ly."

". . . most do it slow" is an example.

Harlequin is right about dialog (and some first-person) being its own can of worms, but in most narrative, your mom is spot on that the phrase should be ". . . most do it slowly."
 

BethS

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In regards to the article on the above site, I feel sorely :)greenie) pressed to point out an error the writer made. She gave this example of when to use adverbs. The words in bold are the ones she indicated were adverbs:

When is it okay to use an adverb? When you absolutely must. Here are some examples of sentences that use adverbs well (the adverbs are italicized):

Congress recently passed a new law.
She entered the room silently.
He drives a dark green sedan.

The problem is that "dark" is not an adverb, not in that sentence and not ever. When someone in the comment trail pointed this out, the author replied that adverbs can modify adjectives (true) and therefore "dark" functioned as an adverb there (not true). (She also insisted that only an adverb can modify an adjective. Don't know where she learned that but it's not true either.)

An example of an adverb modifying an adjective would be: "This is a poorly drawn cartoon." "This incredibly beautiful home can be yours if you can afford it." "There is a ridiculously persistent rumor that adverbs are bad."

In her sample, "dark" is an adjective modifying another adjective: "green."

I also don't agree with the author that it's only acceptable to use adverbs in a utilitarian way.
 
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Myrealana

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There is no writing "rule" that covers 100% of all possible situations.

If someone tells you never, ever use a certain punctuation or part of speech, they're wrong. That's all.

Adverbs have their place. Dialogue tags other than "said" have their place. Exclamation marks, semi-colons, dialect, etc. They should all be in your toolbox. They just shouldn't be used to excess.

What is the definition of "excess?"

If writing were a concrete exercise where the answers are always the same, it would be called math.

Every one commits suicide but most do it slow.

If the sentence calls for an adverb, use one. Just dropping the "ly" off the end of slowly doesn't change the function of the word. It's still functioning as an adverb. Is there a better, more specific verb you can use in place of the verb so that you don't need an adverb? If so, then do that. In this case, there isn't, so the adverb is appropriate.

If the sentence is "He walked slowly," it's a different story. He walked slowly. Did he meander, stroll, lollygag, amble, mope, wander? The adverb is the most boring way to describe his action. In that case, you can just use a better verb.
 

quicklime

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Adverbs have their place. Dialogue tags other than "said" have their place. Exclamation marks, semi-colons, dialect, etc. They should all be in your toolbox. They just shouldn't be used to excess.

What is the definition of "excess?"

.


that's a good (and entirely unanswerable) question.

As a general rule, I try to avoid adverbs, and dialogue tags, and other things that tend to get a critical eye whenever I can, with the understanding there are some places the writing will look, sound, or feel worse without them than with--in those cases I keep them, but I DO err on the side of caution in trying to be aware of them, and remove whenever I re-examine and feel the writing is better for it.

I DO try to be pretty damn stringent in cutting those I "see" because I probably am only about half as efficient as I like to think I am, so plenty make it through the nets the way it is. That isn't a suggestion that there's any magic number, it is just my general feeling that I don't let anything I consider "slop" to go through just because I'm tired, or impatient, or because "well, every book has it" because I have zero doubt there ARE weaknesses in my writing. Plenty of them. So anything I CAN cut or prune or edit or alter I do so ruthlessly.
 

Harlequin

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Dialogue tags other than "said" have their place. Exclamation marks, semi-colons, dialect, etc. [...] What is the definition of excess?
When they're not adding anything to the text ;-)

There's no binary cut-off point, but there are crude guidelines you can make for yourself, for evaluating what is too much and what is okay. Some of mine:


  • If an adverb is weakening a sentence (propping up a feebler verb) or being redundant, I remove it. If not, I leave it. This one sort of evens itself out; it's about appropriateness rather than amount of usage iyswim.
  • Dialogue tags are pretty much stylistic in choice. But again, if they are weakening the sentence or being redundant (eg, adding "shouted" when it's clear from context and exclamation mark that someone is shouting) then they can probably stand to be cut.
  • Exclamation marks should be used as often as your character shouts or screams. Depending on the novel, this might happen quite a lot, or never.
  • Dialect is a stylistic choice. Everything from full-on Mark Twain to stripped-bare VE Schwab.
  • Semi colons are a matter of rhythm, I would say. Sentences should vary in length and have a strong cadence, that you learn by ear. An editor might feel rather different on this point.
 

Bufty

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Context is very relevant when using adverbs, particularly ones like 'slowly' or 'quickly', but the main thing is to use an adverb through deliberate choice and not by habit.