• Basic Writing questions is not a crit forum. All crits belong in Share Your Work

Growth and development as a writer

Cascada

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 11, 2017
Messages
199
Reaction score
24
Location
UK
Okay, this may seem like a strange or banal question, but at the moment I'm in a place where I know I have a lot of work to do in order to become a better writer and sometimes I feel discouraged or anxious. I find myself pondering how long the road will be until I know that I can write and that the mistakes I'm currently making start sinking into my psyche and my prose strengthens as a result.

Now, I have seen improvement in my writing, but I worry it's going to take far longer than I'd like to get to publishable quality.

So, for the seasoned writers who have been doing this for a long time, or long enough to see development...how long was the journey for you, from "my writing stinks" to "damn, I can actually write"?
 

editor17

Banned
Joined
Sep 16, 2018
Messages
26
Reaction score
0
Okay, this may seem like a strange or banal question, but at the moment I'm in a place where I know I have a lot of work to do in order to become a better writer and sometimes I feel discouraged or anxious. I find myself pondering how long the road will be until I know that I can write and that the mistakes I'm currently making start sinking into my psyche and my prose strengthens as a result.

Now, I have seen improvement in my writing, but I worry it's going to take far longer than I'd like to get to publishable quality.

So, for the seasoned writers who have been doing this for a long time, or long enough to see development...how long was the journey for you, from "my writing stinks" to "damn, I can actually write"?


Took me about a dozen years after grad school until I learned HOW to write well enough for my job. And then it only happened because I was forced to do it somehow else be fired.

Creativity can be taught.
What is key is having a writing process that works, which you use along with a base of language skills eg SPAG and being fluent in the language.

Assuming that you have the prerequisites noted above then you need to find a process that works andor take classes in creativity.

In my case pantsing documents for work totally failed, as did my one attempt at a novel some 40 years ago; but once I learned to plan and organise then I succeeded. I even spent a few years where writing was the primary part of my job.

Now retired I plan to do a novel using that same approach. Full disclosure: I was trained in creativity so that is not a problem.
 
Last edited:

Mary Love

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 26, 2015
Messages
1,586
Reaction score
642
how long was the journey for you, from "my writing stinks" to "damn, I can actually write"?

Changes day to day, sentence to sentence. Seriously, does that doubt ever go away?
 

Lady Fox

Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 31, 2018
Messages
79
Reaction score
10
Location
New Zealand
Hi Cascada. It's a good question and I suspect the answer is different for each every writer.

I've been writing on/off for nine years. The last 3-4 I've taken it seriously. Two years ago I thought I was good, now I realize I was OK but certainly not publishable standard. I'm now on the final stretch towards publishing my first novel and recently received Beta feedback for the first half of the novel. The feedback was exactly what I was looking for in that the writing was described as 'strong' and everything I wanted the reader to feel/think about the characters and their relationships came through in the writing. The breadcrumbs I left were all picked up by the Beta's and the questions I wanted them to raise were all raised. It was incredibly satisfying to get that sort of feedback.

Now I feel that I'm at a publishable stage - but it's taken a wee while to get here. I'm on the 6th draft/revision/edit of the novel (almost finished) and have surprised myself by how many more revisions were made even from draft 5, which I thought was pretty much it - until I started draft 6!! Looking back I would say the writing has improved, most definitely, but the biggest improvement and what I'm most proud of is pulling together the characters, plot, foreshadowing and setting. What I'm still working on - and what has been the biggest challenge in draft 6 - is conveying a character's emotion so it isn't overdone or underdone - both of which I think are rather difficult.

So, to answer you question, for me personally, it's taken a good few years of hard work. I think the basic skills were always there, they just needed work (and lots of it). But time will tell. If my Betas like the second half of the book as much as they liked the first (and I really hope they do coz there where all the really good shit happens) then I will be one happy lady.

My advice is don't lose heart. I'm still learning. I still struggle with the all the technicalities of writing... adjectives, adverbs, nouns, participles, fragments etc etc... but I'm getting there. It's a process but fortunately one I love.

Best of luck :)
 

Anna Spargo-Ryan

Just pokin' about
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 21, 2012
Messages
1,703
Reaction score
333
Location
Melbourne, Australia
Website
blog.annaspargoryan.com
There's rarely a defining instant like this, where one day you've learned enough and now you can write well. Every time you write and think critically about writing/reading, you improve as a writer. You might look back on your past six months of writing and think, oh, I'm much better now than I was then! And then in another six months, you'll do the same again, and again and again. I think most of us grow in small increments.

What's publishable changes, too. You'll probably publish work that's at one level, and later publish work that's much better. And you'll publish things in between. "Published" isn't the final form of a writer.

Having said all of that, I wrote for about ten years before I felt like I could submit anything. I know I'm a much better writer now, but I still have plenty of moments where I'm sure I'm objectively terrible. Sometimes it's even worse than before: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect

The fact that you want to be a better writer is a bloody good start. Keep practising and reflecting and reading and trying, and you'll do it without even realising.
 

Toto Too

Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 3, 2018
Messages
191
Reaction score
25
Okay, this may seem like a strange or banal question, but at the moment I'm in a place where I know I have a lot of work to do in order to become a better writer and sometimes I feel discouraged or anxious. I find myself pondering how long the road will be until I know that I can write and that the mistakes I'm currently making start sinking into my psyche and my prose strengthens as a result.

Now, I have seen improvement in my writing, but I worry it's going to take far longer than I'd like to get to publishable quality.

So, for the seasoned writers who have been doing this for a long time, or long enough to see development...how long was the journey for you, from "my writing stinks" to "damn, I can actually write"?

I'm almost two years into my very first WIP. So I'm far from a seasoned veteran, but I'll answer you anyway :) because I completely understand the feelings of discouragement and anxiety.

What helps me is to accept those feelings. They are part of the process. You can't grow without them. And growing is what your goal should be, IMO. Not to get published, or to get to that mythical place where you say "I made it, I'm a great writer." A lot of published writers don't even feel that way.

My goal is to just keep getting better. Everything else will fall into place, in whatever way that might be. You may never reach a point where you are satisfied. You'll always feel like you can get better - and you should. If you don't, that's not success. That's complacency. Or boredom.
 

Snitchcat

Dragon-kitty.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 2, 2006
Messages
6,344
Reaction score
975
Location
o,0
So, for the seasoned writers who have been doing this for a long time, or long enough to see development...how long was the journey for you, from "my writing stinks" to "damn, I can actually write"?

Mine fluctuates: "Oooh, I like my own writing" at times, and other times it's "Argh! [Insert favourite curse here]!"

Right now, it's: "Hmm, I think I'm actually good enough to be read, just need to put in more effort."
 

Atlantic12

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 1, 2017
Messages
573
Reaction score
77
Location
Both sides of the Atlantic
Now, I have seen improvement in my writing, but I worry it's going to take far longer than I'd like to get to publishable quality.

So, for the seasoned writers who have been doing this for a long time, or long enough to see development...how long was the journey for you, from "my writing stinks" to "damn, I can actually write"?

Yes, it will take far, far longer than you think to reach publishable standard. But so what? We're all in that boat, so it's best to just accept how long the road is going to be, and enjoy it as much as you can. This is not a business for the impatient, especially if you hope to trade publish.

"My writing stinks" vs "I can actually write" ----- This is a good example of a way of thinking you can tweak to help you during the slog. "My writing stinks" is fine because it's focused on the work, not on YOU. The writing might not actually be that bad, but at least you're not beating YOURSELF up about it. If you start doing that, you'll really become miserable.

"I can actually write" -- that's an observation about yourself, but try not to make it judgemental. Every project has its own problems, and we all sometimes feel like we can't write at all even if we have lots of evidence to the contrary. Those are just doubt bunnies. They go away with some self care, enough sleep, fresh air, sunshine, exercise, reading a good book in the tub, whatever fills your tanks.

So far my journey of development has taken probably 10 serious years writing about 5 books, now trunked. Then 4 serious years writing and revising the 1 book that got my agent. Then several *more* years revising and polishing that same book until it was good enough to submit. For most of those years, I knew the writing at prose level was good. I had problems with storytelling and structure. This will be something I always have to work very hard on, while I don't worry too much about the prose.

As you keep writing, you'll have to decide for yourself how you measure success, and the quality of what you do. But there will always, always be things you can improve on.
 

Fallen

Stood at the coalface
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 9, 2009
Messages
5,500
Reaction score
1,957
Website
www.jacklpyke.com
how long was the journey for you, from "my writing stinks" to "damn, I can actually write"?

I don't think either really go away. But that's not a bad a thing because it always keeps you sharp and looking out to improve, not get comfortable and regress, or take anything for granted. Try and get used to both. 'My writing stinks' should keep you perfecting skills so you eventually get back off readers "Damn, you can write, dude". Until you have a reader base, use that inbuilt love/hate relationship with your writing to sharpen your skill. Love to hate, lol.
 

Harlequin

Eat books, not brains!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 21, 2010
Messages
4,584
Reaction score
1,412
Location
The land from whence the shadows fall
Website
www.sunyidean.com
It's taken two and a half years for me, but I've started quite late (didn't write as a child or teen). And the thing is that, had I started earlier, I don't think I would have got here faster; I think it would have just taken longer. For me, that is. Does that make sense?

Five years ago I struggled to write a basic letter. Trying to start writing a novel, at that time, would have been a slow and painful process.

The Mary Shelleys who can click at 17 are very, very rare.
 

Ellis Clover

watching The Office again
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 8, 2013
Messages
560
Reaction score
124
Location
Darug and Gundungurra Country
I've been writing stories since I was five. They were pretty terrible for a very, very long time. I'm now forty, and after two or three years of submitting, I sold my first short story on Tuesday.

It takes as long as it takes.
 

The Second Moon

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 12, 2018
Messages
3,393
Reaction score
355
Website
mimistromauthor.com
I have realized that writing -- much like life -- is a journey. And, although that may sound cheesy, it is true.

When I first stared writing I wanted to write (and publish) a novel series with 13 books. I didn't far into the first one when I went through a extremely hard time, which just so happened to be caused by my writing. I after that, I wrote novellas, but they took forever and I just wasn't in love with the whole "save the world / big adventure / fighting bad guys" thing. About a couple of weeks ago, I changed from writing novellas to short stories which were about my characters doing normal stuff and ditched my dream of getting published because I knew that wasn't what I wanted to do.

Now I love writing again and if I ever go through another hard time with my writing, I know I can always change to writing something else.

Bottom line is, you will always be evolving as a writer.
 

Scythian

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 4, 2018
Messages
201
Reaction score
40
I think it depends on age and accumulated experience as well.

The various Lee Childs, Sidney Sheldons, and Robert Ludlums were middle aged when they turned to writing, and it happened fast. Being a mature adult tends to help focus on what's important way faster than when a YA.

All three were in TV, films, or theater prior to that shift, though, so they knew storytelling inside out, and only had to polish up on the prose itself, as it were.

So, mature age+storytelling experience=very fast progress. No storytelling experience or just out of school (or still in it)=likely adds at least a year on top, but I suspect much more, unless one is a super prodigy, which is not unheard of, but quite rare.

Koontz and King both started publishing their books in their early twenties; Koontz became a bestseller with big advances and publicity and movies after fifty books, while King got there with his first book. Likewise Jack Higgins (also took 30-40 books) vs Len Deighton and Ian Fleming, who got there with their debut novels.

Conclusion: whether talking about "making it big", or just "getting published", one should, of course, hope for the best, but one also should be ready to work 30, 40, and 50 times longer and harder than expected, should this turn out to be one's fate.
 
Last edited:

Cascada

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 11, 2017
Messages
199
Reaction score
24
Location
UK
Thank you for your responses, I really appreciate all of them!

Each response highlights how individual the writing journey can be. I saw a Kim Chance video on youtube where she said that writing a novel is probably the hardest thing anyone can do. Apart from other challenging things life can throw up at us, in terms of actually striving for something, I agree with her. It feels like a personal test of endurance, patience and self-belief.

English literature was one of the my strongest subjects at school...but I never went on to higher education to study writing. I wish I had, but I wasn't aware that a lot of novelists had degrees in writing. So, in many ways, I feel like a novice learning from scratch. That said, I think with enough will, determination and learning anyone can get to a good standard...hell...even me!

I've just got to learn not to beat myself up, and as Atlantic12 said, enjoy it and just focus on the writing. It's too easy to attach the ability to write to my self-esteem.
 

lizmonster

Possibly A Mermaid Queen
Absolute Sage
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 5, 2012
Messages
14,539
Reaction score
24,111
Location
Massachusetts
Website
elizabethbonesteel.com
I wasn't aware that a lot of novelists had degrees in writing.

Just to be clear, a lot don't as well. It's perfectly possible to become a marvelous writer without a degree in writing. And as others have stated, it can happen at any time in your life. All you need to do is keep writing. :)
 

AW Admin

Administrator
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 19, 2008
Messages
18,772
Reaction score
6,285
English literature was one of the my strongest subjects at school...but I never went on to higher education to study writing. I wish I had, but I wasn't aware that a lot of novelists had degrees in writing. So, in many ways, I feel like a novice learning from scratch. That said, I think with enough will, determination and learning anyone can get to a good standard...hell...even me!

Fewer writers than you might think have degrees in English or Writing. The value, to my mind, of an English degree is that you read a lot of books of all different sorts.

But it's not at all a requirement to have an English degree, or honestly, a college degree of any sort. The way to learn to write is to read a lot, write a lot, and, perhaps most importantly, to learn to revise.
 

Introversion

Pie aren't squared, pie are round!
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 17, 2013
Messages
10,645
Reaction score
14,869
Location
Massachusetts
I suspect few writers ever feel like they’re done learning, or can’t sharpen their skills?

I’m not published. Partly that’s because I’m not prolific, have been writing short, and the market for short material is brutal.

But I know it’s also because I’m learning. Hope I always am. Hope I never feel like, “Well, that’s perfection”, because it won’t be. :tongue
 

Lady Fox

Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 31, 2018
Messages
79
Reaction score
10
Location
New Zealand
English literature was one of the my strongest subjects at school...but I never went on to higher education to study writing. I wish I had, but I wasn't aware that a lot of novelists had degrees in writing. So, in many ways, I feel like a novice learning from scratch. That said, I think with enough will, determination and learning anyone can get to a good standard...hell...even me!

I've just got to learn not to beat myself up, and as Atlantic12 said, enjoy it and just focus on the writing. It's too easy to attach the ability to write to my self-esteem.

I was in the same boat as you though English Lit was most certainly not a strong point of mine - in fact I found it incredibly boring! However I too thought all novelists were up to their necks in degrees (though I can't think why) and that is mainly why I didn't start writing until my mid thirties. Looking back it was a ridiculous notion to believe I couldn't be a writer because I didn't go onto further education, but hey ho I'm here now.

A turning point for me was when I finally had the courage to upload a sample of my WIP to a forum much like this one. The response I got, and the confidence it gave me was beyond anything I could describe - and I've since learned sooooo much about writing that I didn't have the first clue about back then - again from a forum much like this one.
 

maggiee19

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 12, 2015
Messages
493
Reaction score
52
I feel that I grow as a writer with every novel I write. :)
 

quicklime

all out of fucks to give
Banned
Joined
Jul 15, 2010
Messages
8,967
Reaction score
2,074
Location
wisconsin
Dicked around my first 2-3 years, read a bunch of how-to essays and books, and started out OK, got "barely better than OK" by the end....often still thinking I was way the fuck better than I was.

Found AW, and in the next 2-3 years got WAY better because of participation in the many discussions, and a lot of time proofing stuff in QLH. AW wasn't a magic bullet, you could do a writer's group or other area, and they can be good or bad groups, but I grew from the interactions, and the work critiquing. I think it is entirely reasonable to say for many people these are huge assets in increasing the pace of your development.

*addendum: then fucked off for like 5 yrs where I did almost nothing, anyway (truth in advertising)
 

insolentlad

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 6, 2017
Messages
107
Reaction score
14
Location
Florida Panhandle
Website
insolentlad.com
Like Hemingway (about all I have in common with him!), I had an apprenticeship of sorts in journalism/nonfiction writing before I tacked my first novel. It certainly gave me a head start, taught me how to say what I wanted to say, how to use language. Of course, there is a lot more to fiction than that. Has my writing improved since that first effort? Undoubtedly, but I recognize I draw ever closer to a plateau. I'm just hoping it's a good high one.
 

Cascada

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 11, 2017
Messages
199
Reaction score
24
Location
UK
Thank you all :Hug2:, you've given me hope in regards to the higher education business. I'm going to put such thoughts and concerns in the bin where they belong.

It seems that with patience, effort and time we'll get better according to how much we want to improve, and how much effort we're willing to put into it...not to mention the valuable feedback we get from fellow writers.

I'm no longer feeling down in the dumps. I'm more so in a meditative state of: "Let's get on with it and see what happens", which is a much more comfortable and productive place to be in.

insolentlad, I guess this was my concern really, that people with headstarts are the ones that are most likely to be successful, but I guess not even a degree can make things happen. It's all down to the individual.
 

gem1122

We can pickle that
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 17, 2007
Messages
279
Reaction score
24
Location
US
Changes day to day, sentence to sentence. Seriously, does that doubt ever go away?

No. In fact, some days it seems like the doubt is getting worse.


It seems that with patience, effort and time we'll get better according to how much we want to improve, and how much effort we're willing to put into it...not to mention the valuable feedback we get from fellow writers.

Glad this conversation has helped. Writing is like any other endeavor: patience, effort, and time is the only recipe for getting better.