how can a polyandrous society remain stable in the long term?

nyalathotep

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Witchcraft in this world is practiced openly. Magic works through long, complicated rituals that require multiple components and preparation that can take days to months to complete. Some of the most powerful of these demand human "sacrifice", in which an individual contributes their mana (life energy) is used to fuel a spell. Mana is continuously produced by the body in order to keep a person alive and functional. Testosterone is an important signalling hormone in a mana production pathway. Physically large and athletic young men produce the most Testosterone. Mana builds up over time and can be boosted before harvesting after a testosterone spike (battle, ritual dancing, sex, etc).This would naturally make fit young males the most powerful witches in the setting. However, due to conditions in biology, the "magic gene" is linked to the xx chromosome and production of estrogen. This prevents males from conducting magic and links witchcraft to a female occupation. This has produced a physically hyper competitive world in which the magical edge outweighs the physical and reproduction power disadvantage.

This setting follows a religion in which god, originally a perfect entity and the seat of human consciousness, split himself into two separate beings and reincarnate into mortal forms. These two beings would be the primogenitors of the human race, each possessing half of god's original qualities and attributes and explaining the sexual dimorphism in our species. This has led to the condition that we are divine beings due to having a piece of god in each of us. In the end of days, god will reform into one perfect entity once again in a rapture-like event. We as humans will transcend our mortal bodies, becoming divine once again and become one with the human consciousness.


In this setting, the family unit is based around a clan system. An individual's wealth and status is related to the clan they are born in, and it's ancestry is based on matrilineal lines. Due to certain environmental factors on the continent, travel between regional areas can be somewhat difficult and expensive. Therefore, most breeding takes place between clans in relative proximity of each other. Marriage does not exist in the form we would recognize. Women remain in the clan they were born into, while men are the ones who leave the home to join other families. A man doesn't marry an individual, but marries into an entire clan. This leads to many offspring being fathered by the same individual. A cultural belief system has developed in which boys are considered "sons of society" and raised in bulk while girls are "daughters of their mothers" and raised specifically by their mother.

This system of polyandrous marriage would leave many males unmarried in society. This has historically led to an increase in violence in countries where this is the case, which is why monogamy is thought to be more stable. Is there a way to make this society stable in the long term?
 

OldHat63

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Not without changing biology and reducing testosterone. And somehow I don't think a bunch or eunuchs are gonna do it for ya in that society.
The fact is, sooner or later men always fight over women, especially in a competitive environment. And if they don't well, they're either gay, or otherwise not a viable mate any way.
Even going the route of a brainwashed slave won't do it, I think, since that might leave the chemistry, but remove the drive through psychological issues, ending you back up with the "not a viable mate" problem.


Just my opinion, based on what I know about such things.

Edit: One thing did occur to me; Some artificial means of turning the testosterone supply on at the appropriate time, while keeping it suppresed at all the others might get you there, and also leave you with a plot device that could be used for all sorts of things... especially if the means to that end is a rare or difficult-to -produce item or chemical.


O.H.
 
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autumnleaf

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You might be interested in reading about the Mosuo people of western China:
https://www.marieclaire.com/culture/a14415918/mosuo-female-run-matrilineal-society-china/

Mosuo society is matrilinial. They practice “walking marriages,” where most men live separately from their wives and children. Mosuo relationships aren't quite "polyandrous", though; it's more like serial monogamy where the partners live mostly apart. An interesting aspect is that the maternal uncle plays an important role in the upbringing of his sister's children.
 

lizmonster

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We get wild turkeys around here. The flocks will drive out the excess males one they are old enough. You could consider something like that, or even having them culled, but it depends on how sympathetic you want this society to be.
 

PyriteFool

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Polyandrous cultures are actually relatively common throughout human history (and no, it does not involve castration or testosterone suppression because that...isn't how biology works).

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2013/02/when-taking-multiple-husbands-makes-sense/272726/

Seriously, if you're men are not enculturated to be violent and regard women as property or something they are entitled to, the violence you are describing won't be an issue. Monogamy is not inherently more stable than polygamy, and one could actually argue polygamy could be more stable as it does not rely on a perfect balance of opposite sex partners to work. Also, try reading Heinlein's "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" for an interesting example of literary polygamy featuring fewer women than men. Short version: the moon has significantly fewer women than men and limited resources, so people often enter into chain or clan marriages of multiple partners. I don't understand why your system would leave men unmarried. They marry the clan, so unless men don't serve a societal purpose besides breeding (which isn't true based on your other thread), clans just accept however many new "husbands" they want, right? How is stability a problem?
 

Cobalt Jade

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I don't understand why certain males would remain unmarried in this situation. Can you explain further?
 

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A cultural belief system has developed in which boys are considered "sons of society" and raised in bulk while girls are "daughters of their mothers" and raised specifically by their mother.

"Sons of society" could imply "not first-class citizens". Are they? Or are they resources to be spent as society deems fit?

Because there's obvious ways to deal with surplus people who aren't considered to have agency, depending on how squeamish you are and how brutal your world is:

* support them as non-essential drones (keep them happy so they don't have reason to rebel)
* military service
* send them to the frontiers (whatever those are) to be chewed up out there (out of sight, out of mind)
* slavery (or low-paid drudge labor)
* sacrifice as fast as you produce them (if that's the "fuel" for big spells, why wouldn't you like having a lot of "fuel" hanging around?)
* eat them (see "Courtship Rite" by Donald Kingsbury)

Or, you know, just raise them not to be violent dicks? It's possible in this world, why not yours?
 

Roxxsmom

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I don't think you need to change biology to accommodate this in a story. All fantasy premises depart from established "reality" in some ways, and this is less of a stretch than many. People who are disinclined to accept it and vehemently insist men would never settle for such a system (and can't let go and enjoy the story with the assumption that they do in this case for whatever reason) probably aren't your target audience anyway. Not that there aren't intriguing biological variations in nature that also might be fun to play with.

Men could ostensibly have a way of dealing with their testosterone and competitive urges in such a culture, just as women found a way to deal with their needs (biological and social) in a polygynous society. Men could still be competitive within their families. Given that a woman always knows if a baby is hers, they might not be so jealous or worried about all their husbands being faithful. Men who feel that they aren't getting enough "attention" from their wife might well find it with other men (if so inclined) or with other women.

Note that in nature, female animals cheat, statistically, as much as male ones do. They have to, because otherwise there wouldn't be any available females for the males to cheat with. This is true in both polygynous and monogamous mating situations. The same would be true in reversel.

Note, while rare, polyandry does exist in the real world. Usually it involves brothers or other close male relatives who are married to the same woman. There are examples in the animal kingdom too. Do women in your world acquire husbands from the same family? Or is there a need to connect with as many different families and clans as possible in terms of alliances and so on? A lot depends on the reason for the polyandry.

The hardest part about writing a story where a speculative social system departs from what we know and take for granted (and patriarchy is still one of those things) is accounting for all the ripples that would result from the differences. Relationships, romantic love, assumptions, and the relative value of stereotypical male and female traits (not to mention what those traits will likely be) will be very different. So might economics and many social institutions. I've written a story set in a world with matrilineal descent and a more egalitarian social structure than our own had, and even that made it hard to include some of my go-to elements, such as the way a romance unfolds. It's very different when women don't need men for their own social status and economic stability the way they have throughout much of western history.

Many speculative fiction writers sort of fail in this regard, imo. For example, Star Trek, which portrayed an egalitarian society (in the Next Generation anyway), but women still unthinkingly took their husbands' names in marriage and wore long hair and makeup (while men didn't).
 
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Introversion

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That's a good point about about the freedom to depart from our reality, so long as an author can sell it to their readers.

I suppose the only caveat or caution I'd offer is that if one is going to write characters that behave in fundamentally different ways than most humans do today, it's worth offering some rationale for that. Either it's a history of enculturing people to behave a certain way, or perhaps they've evolved / been selected / self-selected for different behaviors.

For example, I could accept a culture where not all human males can marry.

I could less easily believe in a culture where the heterosexual ones can't have sexual relations with women, and are fine with that. The OP didn't say one way or another whether women in this polyandrous matriarchy are strictly monogamous once married. If so, this world would feel more "real" to me if that was a source of friction and resentment among the unmarriageable men, or the women didn't marry until older and sowed their oats among the drones until then (presumably with very good birth control), etc. Something, anything, other than "And so Bob and his hand lived the celibate good life forever & ever, amen".
 

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I think you've answered your own question. It's stable because the women magicians have the power and have structured it the way they want. The men don't have power. What they might want doesn't matter. Power struggles would happen between clans not sexes. One sided power is historically a very stable system imo.
 

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I could less easily believe in a culture where the heterosexual ones can't have sexual relations with women


Given how successful "The Power" was as a novel, I'm going to go out on a limb and say, there are enough readers who find the gender power balance being flipped, perfectly believable.

Solomon's 300 wives and 700 concubines presumably had to make do with each other, and/or masturbation. No reason why male concubines couldn't do the same.
 

Introversion

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Solomon's 300 wives and 700 concubines presumably had to make do with each other, and/or masturbation. No reason why male concubines couldn't do the same.

I could be wrong, but it sounded like the OP's world consists of a very large percentage of unmarriageable men? Not a few hundred with (one presumes) at least some offsetting status or trappings for the harem members?

If the men of this world are valued for high testosterone levels, which tends to be linked to aggression in humans, I stand by what I said: Tell me why some large fraction of the single male population of this world accepts their lot. My disbelief can be suspended, if given a reason in the OP's world.
 

bwebs

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If the men of this world are valued for high testosterone levels, which tends to be linked to aggression in humans, I stand by what I said: Tell me why some large fraction of the single male population of this world accepts their lot. My disbelief can be suspended, if given a reason in the OP's world.

Baby fur seals were valued too:) I'm still saying if women or even a few powerful women can shoot lasers out of there eyes I'm accepting my lot real quick, and my testosterone is probably just going to get channeled at other males, which would probably be encouraged on the daily so I could get harvested for my massive mana.
 

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Baby fur seals were valued too:) I'm still saying if women or even a few powerful women can shoot lasers out of there eyes I'm accepting my lot real quick, and my testosterone is probably just going to get channeled at other males, which would probably be encouraged on the daily so I could get harvested for my massive mana.

So when I said:

this world would feel more "real" to me if that was a source of friction and resentment among the unmarriageable men

I think we're agreeing? ;)