All-female environment

efreysson

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I occasionally think about all-male environments, and how overall lucky I feel to not have spent time in those. Given enough isolation they seem to very easily slide into a whole lot of toxic posturing, abuse and emotional stunting. Then I started thinking about the other side of the coins. I guess all-female situations don't have as rich a history, but can someone here give an account of one?

I generally lean towards the school of thought that society needs traditionally "manly" and "feminine" outlooks to be held up as equally important in order to be healthy, so I'm curious if the ladies run into similar issues.
 

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Worked in vet clinics for years, which was always female dominated. It can be really great and supportive, and it can also be awful. I never had to worry about sexual harassment or being looked down upon/ignored/dismissed because I'm a woman, but that doesn't mean I was never abused. I had to deal with bullies. The sort that are sweet to your face, but tear you to shreds behind your back. I even had a female boss hit me.

What really hurt though is that I suffered with endometriosis for years (until my doctor finally agreed to a hysterectomy). You'd think women would be understanding, but it was actually the opposite. Because they had periods too, they just couldn't understand why I had to call in sick so often. Like, no, it's not just cramps, Claire, I've been in the fetal position on the bathroom floor for hours crying and puking. You think I can make it through a ten hour shift? Ugh! It was a very stressful time.
 

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I'm not sure if this counts as the kind of environment you're interested in, but I attended a girls-only secondary school in the UK (for girls aged 11 to 16). There was a wide range of personalities. There were various groups - "normal" girls with mature and sensible personalities from stable families; the very popular and confident girls who generally got on with everyone; the "hard" cold girls whose talk of their lives often contained suggestions of crime, drugs, and gangs; a handful of very sheltered girls who had extremely limited social experience (me); some girls who were ostracised by many for unclear reasons. Looking back, I fear it was to do with a perception of them being poor and therefore dirty in some way (this is absolutely not my thoughts on them, but a guess based on the atmosphere and cruel gossip back then.)

It was a mixture of nice and horrible people, just like any other group. There was support, friendship, and also bullying and open racism. I can't think of anything that would point to it having inherently less toxic posturing, abuse, or emotional stunting than another group might have, as these things were certainly there.
 

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I can't think of anything that would point to it having inherently less toxic posturing, abuse, or emotional stunting than another group might have, as these things were certainly there.

This. I went to an all-women's college, and then went on to work in a male-dominated industry (software) for 27 years. In aggregate, not a lot of difference between the two, and least IME -- some lovey people, some awful people, some bullies, some champions, lots of odd-ones-out.

The only difference was in software I would sometimes run into individuals to whom I'd have to explain repeatedly that yes, I was indeed an engineer, and not in testing or marketing or tech pubs. Of course, when I was in college, I had to explain repeatedly that yes, I really was majoring in math and not poly sci or econ or English. All kinds of people seem to make gendered assumptions.

I suppose they seemed similar to me because I didn't really fit in either place. :)
 

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My preference is to enter mixed or male-dominated environments. I've had too many bad experiences I don't know how to deal with involving groups of (cis) females, because while people generally accept that masculinity can be toxic, the concept of toxic femininity continues to be ignored. That makes calling out women in power for acting out on harmful biases more challenging.

However, that's a cultural issue. We too often encourage abusive behavior.

I would like to see more female-dominated businesses and government agencies--specifically ones that work well--if for no other reason to remove who's currently in power.
 

efreysson

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the concept of toxic femininity continues to be ignored.

Is it just toxic human behaviour in general, or is there some big difference between the two, would you say?
 

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Right now, I happen to be working as an assistant/specimen processor in a women-run lab. There are five of us, including my boss, the most patient and competent person I've ever worked for, and we're all nerds. I kind of love it.

For a little while, I did experience some bullying and short-temperedness from one person in particular, which sucked. Especially because we'd been friends prior to my coming to work here. After setting boundaries and making it clear that I wasn't going to put up with her attitude (something I never would've been able to do two years ago; yay, anti-anxiety meds!), she backed off and we were able to save our friendship as well as our working relationship.

Most of the stereotypes involving women's work spaces don't really apply to us. I don't know if that's because most of us have already opted out of prescribed feminine roles or if we're just lucky. We're very comfortable with each other and supportive of one another, and we talk and laugh about everything from favorite childhood TV shows to bathroom habits. When I worked as the assistant director for an after-school program years ago, most of the employees were women and that wasn't remotely the case. It was a different environment, lots of college-aged people, myself included. The lab has a much broader range of ages. I don't see myself staying in my current job forever (no upward mobility, plus full-time author dreams *sigh*) but for now, it's a good place to be.
 
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Siri Kirpal

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There are differences. Women in male-dominated situations are more likely to get sexual innuendos if not open sexual harassment. Women are less likely to do that to other women, but I've experienced the reverse. The you're-not-a-real-women sort of verbal bullying that women do.

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Siri Kirpal
 

lizmonster

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There are differences. Women in male-dominated situations are more likely to get sexual innuendos if not open sexual harassment. Women are less likely to do that to other women, but I've experienced the reverse. The you're-not-a-real-women sort of verbal bullying that women do.

Blessings,

Siri Kirpal

I've run into the "there can be only one" syndrome from other women in male-dominated spaces - once from a manager, which was pretty miserable.

And yeah - I've personally experienced a little sexual harassment, but I've witnessed far more. The biggest problem I saw in software was women constantly being overlooked for special projects, and being frequently asked (sometimes explicitly) to justify their place there. When I started in the industry in the late 1980s it wasn't so bad, but it became steadily worse over time.

I wouldn't ever recommend a woman go into software now, unless she adored it enough to take on the second full-time job of reciting her resumé to her colleagues every single day.

In general, I think men and women are socialized to handle hierarchies differently, and when people either feel their place is threatened or they're trying to advance, bad behavior will reflect that socialization. As a gross generalization: men make power plays, women undermine. Both suck to deal with.
 

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The biggest problem I saw in software was women constantly being overlooked for special projects, and being frequently asked (sometimes explicitly) to justify their place there. When I started in the industry in the late 1980s it wasn't so bad, but it became steadily worse over time.

This mirrors my experience too; I started working in digital technology c. 1989. It's worse now than it was then.
 

lizmonster

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Wait, sexism has gotten WORSE over time??

In software? Yes.

I think it's due to a number of factors, but in general? Between now and then the industry has exploded, and it remains fairly highly-paying. Women tend to get aggressively shoved out of highly-paying industries.
 

Siri Kirpal

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I've run into the queen bee there-can-only-be-one syndrome too.

Women doing the you're not a real woman bullying are IME usually looking at unfashionable clothing and similar, things like not plucking eyebrows. I've been bullied for not shaving my legs (this was in an era when all women wore skirts/dresses). That wouldn't be so common now that pants are acceptable attire for women.

Blessings,

Siri Kirpal
 

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I was a secretary for an Assistant City Manager in a city of about 500,000 people. Although the top-level people in the City Manager's Office were maybe 2/3rds-3/4ths male to female, the support staff-- the secretaries-- were 100% female. I had gone in as a temp to replace my ACM's secretary, who had made a lateral transfer over into Grantwriting. The City Manager's secretary, who was "over" the rest of the secretaries, was pretty much not happy with me and didn't want me to be permanently taken on. I had the technical skills for the position, but I wasn't a "real" secretary, and had other ambitions in life (I was formerly a museum curator, and wanted to go back someday into the profession). She, on the other hand, had served in the Nixon White House, and was very proud of it... even though Nixon had been president before I was born. (DH was of the opinion it was a matter of me being a Cute Young Thang fresh from undergrad, and she was... someone who had served in the Nixon White House before I was born.) :p

My (male) ACM liked me just fine. We got along great. I knew his preferences, and was able to do things the way he liked-- and so he didn't care that I was just being a secretary to pay the bills, and that it wasn't my lifelong dream. Eventually, he retired for the public sector, and at the same time, my duties were split between him and his replacement ACM during the transition. And then I realized the very honest truth of "no man can serve two masters-- he'll love one and hate the other". I'm a pretty easy person to get along with, but my new ACM just rubbed me wrong in a hundred different ways. (Example: "Hey. I need you to go through these 15 years' worth of papers in this office I'm moving into. Make a stack of whatever's important that I need to look at. Throw away whatever's not important. I'll be back in a week." And I'm thinking, "How am I supposed to have the background to make that kind of a judgment call? This is Engineering, Public Works, Aviation, Water, Housing... that's way over my head!") We were a rotten match for each other, and I ended up transferring down to be secretary for the Engineering Director, which was another male-dominated department.

One example of how the ladies were in the CMO/Mayor & Council office--

I'm covering the front desk over lunch. Someone drops off a file. This is for Councilmember So-and-So. Would you please put it on his desk? Sure, no problem. I take the file over to the Mayor & Council office, where three or four of the secretaries are grouped around the first cubicle having a good chat. "This is for Councilmember So-and-So," I said. "Shall I take this to his office, or did you want to give it to him?" "Oh, no problem, just leave it on this desk and I'll take care of it when I go back that way," said one of the secretaries. I hand it over, and get back to my post. A week or two later, when the City Manager's secretary is telling me about my shortcomings, she mentions, "You're too quiet and withdrawn and keep to yourself too much" and in the same breath, she says, "And you have the gall to just drop stuff anywhere and expect the Councilmembers' secretaries to finish your job for you."

It took me a while, and the experience of a few other jobs--- but I realized that it was less of a gender thing, sometimes, and more of a confidence issue, perhaps? For example, I had a male boss in the female-dominated library field. And he was such a beta male. He was so weak. When he wanted to criticize me for something, he couldn't do it to my face, even though our desks were only ten feet apart. He had to email me instead of sticking his head through the door and saying, "Hey, when I gave you that task 15 minutes ago, I actually wanted it done right now, not at your own leisure. If you're not going to drop everything and do it immediately, I'll just do it myself."

Later on, when I had his job, one of my library assistants was being verbally abused by some of the other ladies on staff. (Like, racial stuff.) And I had to protect her, step in, say, "This isn't acceptable" and "Do we need to go to HR about this?" Whereas Mr. Beta hadn't ever gotten involved. The people under me were thrilled-- because I let them do their job. I'm like, "Of course. That's what you're there for. If you need anything from me, let me know, and I'd be happy to help. But y'all are competent adults who have tons of experience. You don't need me micromanaging over your shoulder." And we were awesome, and got our work done, and my department--100% female-- was a nice little drama-free island in the middle of the 80% female high school cliques that raged around us. :p

A lot of my friends are really alpha personalities. They have leadership qualities through and through. They don't have anything to prove--- they know they're awesome. They don't have turf to defend--- they have confidence in their excellence, and they recognize it in others, and they expect to manage adults, not micromanage children. They're cool with delegating, and they recognize people and distribute credit, because crediting others doesn't take away from their own value-- it's an acknowledgement of the fact they have an awesomesauce team, and they want their team to know that they're valued.

When you give power to someone who lacks confidence, they put their self-worth in that position... and they defend it vigorously. If you don't respond to their power-- like by dropping everything for a priority that hasn't been defined as a priority-- they'll take that personally, as not taking their authority seriously. Or they'll defend their perceived territory vigorously, and rather than seeing their job as "making sure the person I support looks good" or "making sure the job gets done" or "making sure my part of the big picture is successful", it turns into being all about them personally.
 

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I really think it depends on what field you work in. Back when I was in criminal law, I worked in an all-female environment that was insufferable. My boss was so narcissistic and paranoid that she was constantly blaming me for things that went wrong in the office even though I had nothing to do with any of it. Files went missing because she was disorganized and misplaced them, but she said I somehow lost them (even though I never worked with those files) and had to show up early to search the entire office for them. She also blamed me for breaking or resetting office equipment that I hadn't even touched. She would also treat me like I was stupid and beneath her. And she would swear at me--that really pissed me off. She would go from smiling one second to cursing me out the next, and I would have no idea why. She didn't verbalize her thoughts about whatever triggered her anger; she'd just leave me to try to read her mind.

I moved out of the field of law and into archives. I have worked in two all-female environments and both have been the polar opposite of my experience with the law firm. I get along great with my co-workers. I would not say that all-female environments (or all-male environments) are inherently toxic. I would say that certain work environments are toxic because of the field and the personality types that are attracted to that field. Law attracts narcissistic people. Archives attract laid back people.
 

neandermagnon

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I've been in quite a few male dominated environments in my life and not found any of them particularly toxic. Granted that toxic all-male environments exist and the level of sexism within them will vary depending on how sexist the men were before they went in the environment, but my experience of very male dominated environments has been positive. I fully acknowledge that cases where women are bullied and treated horribly in all kinds of way by male colleagues also happen and such cases should be taken very seriously. I'm presenting my own experiences which, thankfully, don't include that. I also acknowledge that sexism is much worse in some sectors than others.

I've also been in quite a few all female environments - sports related - and will come to them presently.

Predominantly male environment examples:

Example 1:
I worked as a postman in a London delivery office - this was back in the 90s. There were 200 people working there, only 5 (including me) were female and I barely met any of the other women. My day to day interactions were all with men. They were all friendly and jovial and there was banter - the usual London banter same as many other workplaces I've been in regardless of the gender mix. The only time it was potentially an issue me being female was because there was a weight limit to the bag of mail; for health and safety you couldn't carry more than 16kg. The union rep was strict in insuring that no-one left the office with more than 16kg including the big men who could easily have carried 20kg+ bags. For me, that was important because being only 5'1" and female, 16kg was about the limit to what I could carry given we had to walk a couple of miles with it. Without that there would've been the potential to discriminate against me on the grounds I can't carry as much. But this rule prevented that. It also prevented discrimination against smaller, less heavily built men.

Overall I was treated the same as the men, they respected me, I respected them, we got along well, had a laugh and some banter, and we supported and helped each other.

Example 2: I used to play ice hockey and would sometimes train with men's recreational team and the boys' under 19s teams. The rules at the time allowed women to train in men's rec and also the rules of girls playing in boys teams was that you subtract 2 years off your age (so a 14 year old girl could play in under 12s) and women of any age could play under 19s, because the boys were near enough fully grown and adult women don't have a strength advantage over them. So anyway, my experience of training with all boys/all men (or nearly all boys/men because there were a couple of other women who'd train with the same teams sometimes) was positive. There was one coach who was very sexist and believed that women shouldn't be allowed to play with the men, but he didn't stop me playing, told me if I trained he'd treat me exactly the same as the other players and I said that was exactly what I wanted as I didn't want any special treatment (I don't know why sexist men think women want to play with the men then be treated like a delicate princess, but there you go!) and because we'd come to that agreement, I got treated as a player like any other and it was overall a very positive experience.


Anyway, just wanted to show the positive side of male dominated social groups.


Now for my all female group experiences:

Female judo squad/team:
all the instructors and players (teenage) were female - all selected from local clubs to represent the county/area. For the most part it was a supportive environment but there was one girl who was a nasty bully who stirred up all kinds of animosity between players and would target specific individuals for bullying, i.e. getting everyone else to gang up against her. A few of us who'd been targeted by her conspired together to do the same to her - this resulted in us beating the crap out of her by using sneaky illegal judo techniques when we fought her in training. She left us alone after that. However it split the squad into two factions that hated each other. Wasn't good for team cohesion.

Female ice hockey team 1 that I played for for about 1 season: I left this team due to bullying. 'Nuff said. BTW this sort of thing was fairly common and certain teams were known for it. Sometimes it only takes one toxic person (like the judo team example above) to bring out the worst in everyone else. People being run out of teams due to bullying and leaving to go to a different team were not that rare. Often, the motivation was jealousy - i.e. the bully ringleader didn't want their place on the team to be in jeopardy from someone more talented, and the others would join in because they were afraid of what would happen to them if they got on the wrong side of the bully ringleader.

Female ice hockey team 2 that I used to play for after I left the above team: London banter - tons of it (some of us once deeply shocked a male Canadian coach who overheard our dressing room banter and it shattered his illusions of women being delicate princesses). Much more supportive group and we looked out for each other and also socialised together. Very positive experience. Stayed in this team for years and I'm still in contact with many of my old team mates via facebook.

Female rugby team that I currently play for: like the above nice ice hockey team. I can't say it's London banter because we're not in London, so I'll call it rugby banter. Very nice, supportive group of women with an inclusive, family atmosphere - well, the banter's not exactly family friendly lol, but they treat team members like a family. Players all look out for each other, socialise together and generally very nice.

---

One of the biggest differences I can see between the two nice examples and the two not nice examples is the acceptance of LGBT+ players - the nice ice hockey team's player-manager at the time I played is gay (and has been happily married to the goalie ever since gay marriage became legal - happily in a relationship with the same goalie since we all played together) and the rugby team has quite a few gay players as well. I'm not claiming that LGBT+ women are nicer than straight women, it's probably more that where someone's been through homophobia they're probably more motivated to try to create an inclusive, non-hostile environment, and the result of that is it becomes more accepting and less hostile for everyone, not just LGBT+ people. So that supports the idea that it's got nothing to do with gender or sexual orientation or any other category you could group people into, rather that people need to make a bit of an effort to be friendly and inclusive and that everyone benefits from it when they do.

This observation extends to my current employer as well (which is mixed gender with both men and women in senior positions). The company I work for was voted as being one of the top 10 companies for LGBT+ people to work for, due to having a very robust policy for equality and diversity, i.e. all forms of bigotry are very frowned upon and likely to get you a disciplinary (or even fired). They're a very nice company to work for and everyone acts like a mature adult not like school bullies, and the managers are supportive and fair, not remotely like petty dictators.

Given all that, I strongly believe that the absence of toxic behaviours in social groups depends on the group making a conscious effort not to tolerate it, and instead to strive to make the place inclusive and friendly.
 
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DanielSTJ

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I worked in a high end pottery-like store for a few weeks. I was the only male there.

They would talk down to me because I was young and because I was a male. They would chide and laugh about the "stupidity of men," in general, quite often. They also believed education was useless and that "someone like me" would be better suited simply getting a job and forgetting about any of that.

It was a bad workplace. I quit.
 

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Is it just toxic human behaviour in general, or is there some big difference between the two, would you say?

I'd say both. The differences depend on what's considered masculine and what's feminine.

Job Experiences: I feel as if not fitting in with stereotypes has cost me two jobs in women-dominated offices. The way I dressed (nevermind the dress code), the shoes I wore (despite most of my work taking place at a computer), the foods I ate (even the ones not brought into the office), details of my personal life (including my love life, despite my reluctance to even share), and my disinterest in who was friends with whom unless it moved paperwork more quickly were all areas criticized by my supervisors. My work ethic appeared to clash with the older, female managers' attempt to direct my social life. I hadn't faced that same pressure when working under men before.

In other offices, I saw scheduling discrimination based on how the woman in charge felt personally about employees. Job ability wasn't much of a factor. Pushing against that was like trying to rip the seams in a line of stereotypes. But women are kind... fair... good communicators....

When the topic comes to toxic behavior, I think society show discuss how aggressiveness and hateful behavior is directed through all gender expectations until it figures out those expectations are part of the problem.
 
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lizmonster

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When the topic comes to toxic behavior, I think society show discuss how aggressiveness and hateful behavior is directed through all gender expectations until it figures out those expectations are part of the problem.

You've said this better than I did. I think the issue isn't men vs. women; I think the issue is how men are socialized to fit in vs. how women are socialized to fit in. A workplace full of people who are heavily invested in social stereotypes isn't going to be pleasant for people who aren't (or who don't fit.)

Workplaces dominated by a single gender run the risk of feeding off specific cultural stereotypes to a toxic level (like what you experienced, Daniel). It doesn't always happen, but it happens often enough. A healthy workplace will address issues before they dominate, but IME all it takes is one person in a position of power, and suddenly the whole environment reflects their mindset.
 

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If you work with great people, you'll have a great work experience. If you work with lousy people (even just one or two of them), you'll have a lousy work experience.

It's not a male versus female thing, but I do think the kind of toxicity you get with a male-dominated versus a female-dominated space tends to be different.

In male-dominated spaces, I think toxicity can slide over to being physically dangerous more often, which makes sense, because men on average (not as individuals) are more likely to engage in violence than women. In female-dominated spaces, I think the toxicity is more likely to be psychologically debilitating, because women on average have more emotional intelligence than men, which is helpful if you intend to psychologically torture someone.

Mean people suck, basically. Everyone else is generally pretty great. :)
 
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Siri Kirpal

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Yes, as Daniel's comments indicates, female-dominated professions can have some nastiness for men. I once spent some time in a library reprocessing the books so they could go back on the shelves. There were some very nasty/snarky comments about men posted where anyone who worked in the area could see them. I quietly removed them and threw them away. The men who worked there deserved better.

Blessings,

Siri Kirpal
 

efreysson

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details of my personal life (including my love life, despite my reluctance to even share), and my disinterest in who was friends with whom unless it moved paperwork more quickly were all areas criticized by my supervisors. My work ethic appeared to clash with the older, female managers' attempt to direct my social life. I hadn't faced that same pressure when working under men before.

... wait, your superiors were... trying to control your social life?

Maybe it's my autism at work here, but I can't make any sense of that whatsoever. That seems about as logical a use of time and effort as trying to eat a brick.
 

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I worked as a teen for years at a pool which had mostly female lifeguards. My boss was female, her boss and her boss above her were also female. I found it to be one of the most toxic environments I had ever experienced working in, as many of the girls I worked with would resort to schoolyard gossiping, even though many were in their mid twenties. While people comment a lot on the violence that men project, I find it's women whose words can be more violent than any action they could take. While many women I worked with there were very positive, even four out of the forty women there could cause such a stir in the staff that it would take weeks for morale to recover. While I'm TOTALLY all for girl power, I find that without the opinions of men thrown in there isn't enough balance. I feel like men and women should balance each other out, and equalize each other in workplaces and the environment and we just didn't have that at my job.

Anyways, I hope this is what you were asking about, and that I was able to help.