How might people take this?

efreysson

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The arrogance and cruelty of European powers towards "lesser" peoples during the age of exploration and colonisation is probably my biggest peeve when it comes to human history.

I have an idea for a pulpy fantasy setting, sort of a mix of steampunk, Indiana Jones and really early sci-fi adventures, where the miracle substance powering airships and the like is sound in an expy of South America. The imperialistic monarchies of not-Europe naturally want to roll in and take it... except generation of exposure to the stuff has made the natives superhuman.

So they are technologically at the Stone Age but can still slaughter invaders, and the monarchies are forced to... you know... make deals with the locals. They get to establish outposts where they can mine and set up communities, but venturing beyond the boundaries will result in Bad Stuff.

Stuffy, arrogant, upper class officers would fume at having to bow to the demands of "half naked savages" but be helpless to do anything else.

My intrepid protagonists would be forced to pass through the jungle at one point, and only survive the experience by being very respectful.

I would give the setting this feature basically for my personal catharsis, but how might other folks take it?
 

MythMonger

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Are the superhuman Natives also invulnerable to the colonizer's weapons?

Technology always wins out over brute force in the long run.
 

efreysson

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Are the superhuman Natives also invulnerable to the colonizer's weapons?

Technology always wins out over brute force in the long run.

I'm thinking moderately bulletproof. But this whole idea is quite fresh, and I have a lot of stuff to iron out.
 

Chris P

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It's been 30 years since I read it, but memories of Frank Herbert's Dune surface when I read your description. That book might be a good (although now dated) example of what you're describing. I'm sure there are more recent good examples too.

As for how people will take it, there is no predicting. Take it in which way? As in if people will want to read it? The Avatar movie was quite successful, so there is a market. As in if will people will think it's too tropey and preachy, or misrepresents either the colonized or the colonizers, then it all depends on how you do it. If you avoid the major stereotypes and make the characters real but still representative of their respective world views, you should be good.
 

autumnleaf

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As with most ideas, the execution makes all the difference. Personally, I love the idea of turning the tables on would-be colonists and uprooting their expectations. But if the story becomes too preachy or stereotyped, you're going to lose me even though I'm sympathetic to the premise.

A trap to avoid is making the locals all saintly "noble savages" and the invaders all cartoonish villains. That's unrealistic and could be seen as offensive in itself.

I'm assuming the locals are also immune to disease? That was a big factor in decimating the indigenous populations of America and Australia.

Another factor was where colonists would exploit existing conflicts and turn native groups against each other. Perhaps you need some kind of communication system and/or a charismatic leader who helps the locals to work together against the invaders.
 
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autumnleaf

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Also, if you're trying to show some kind of analogy to, for example, the conquest of the Americas, you're not restricted to societies with "Stone Age" technology. Civilizations such as the Aztecs and Incas had cities, writing, sophisticated farming methods, a knowledge of astronomy and medicine (there's evidence that the Incas performed blood transfusion), etc. The Europeans might have seen them as "barbarous savages", but they were unreliable narrators trying to justify their own colonization.
 

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A trap to avoid is making the locals all saintly "noble savages" and the invaders all cartoonish villains. That's unrealistic and could be seen as offensive in itself.

Completely agree with this! Also really hate the trope of the white man becoming the savior of the indigenous people, i.e. Dances with Wolves, the Last Mohican, Avatar.
 

shadowsminder

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efreysson, I like the premise. In a pulp world reminiscent of Indiana Jones, I would expect little historical accuracy about jungle cultures. Maybe in a different story, one that could show how European diseases demolished advanced civilizations so that later waves of invaders say only ruins and scattered "savages". I imagine a South American version of Marvel's Wakanda set in the past.
 

Harlequin

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my suggestion would be to include a character who is doubtful about the european propaganda, ie more genteel in their approach, slightly more open minded, and more willing to lead the way in the face of change.

Although it is Middle Grade and quite old, the book The Pirate's Son by Geraldine McCaughlean does this quite well.
 

joeyc

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The Soldier Son trilogy by Robin Hobb is another series of novels that sort of handles these themes. It's a bit dated now (ten years, I think?) and it's not really on the pulpy side of things, but there's a very heavy aspect of colonizers vs. natives going on, and the main character (unless I'm mistaken) is from a stuffy upper class background.
 

quicklime

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The arrogance and cruelty of European powers towards "lesser" peoples during the age of exploration and colonisation is probably my biggest peeve when it comes to human history.

I have an idea for a pulpy fantasy setting, sort of a mix of steampunk, Indiana Jones and really early sci-fi adventures, where the miracle substance powering airships and the like is sound in an expy of South America. The imperialistic monarchies of not-Europe naturally want to roll in and take it... except generation of exposure to the stuff has made the natives superhuman.

So they are technologically at the Stone Age but can still slaughter invaders, and the monarchies are forced to... you know... make deals with the locals. They get to establish outposts where they can mine and set up communities, but venturing beyond the boundaries will result in Bad Stuff.

Stuffy, arrogant, upper class officers would fume at having to bow to the demands of "half naked savages" but be helpless to do anything else.

My intrepid protagonists would be forced to pass through the jungle at one point, and only survive the experience by being very respectful.

I would give the setting this feature basically for my personal catharsis, but how might other folks take it?


probably the same way they did in reading or watching The Last of the Mohicans, or Avatar...…

your concept isn't terribly novel, at best it is a mishmash of several fairly common ideas. That isn't a judgement at all, there are remarkably few truly novel ideas out there, a few thousand years of recorded civilization does that to a guy....the point is, your book will suck, or rock, because of how you HANDLE these ideas. Not because of the idea itself, but the execution.
 

call-of-the-mind

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I really like this premise. The only issue you may have is that it is a little unrealistic for the savages to be totally invulnerable. Everything needs a weakness.
 

Morning Rainbow

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So they are technologically at the Stone Age
This is offensive. Indigenous Americans and Europeans live in the same age. Saying that indigenous people are in the Stone Age is just another way of saying that we're primitive. Indigenous peoples have never been less advanced than Europeans; our cultures just prioritize different things.

That being said, I don't think you know enough about indigenous Americans or have the right perspective to write a novel about a tribe without being (inadvertently) offensive. If you truly want to write a novel like this, you will need to do a lot of research on South American tribes in order to portray them correctly instead of stereotypically (i.e. through a European ethnocentric lens).
 

autumnleaf

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Saying that a civilization is technologically less advanced is not the same as saying that the people are less advanced. Modern Singapore is technologically more advanced than rural Afghanistan. Medieval China was technologically more advanced than Medieval Europe. But that doesn't mean that the people of Singapore or Medieval China are/were "more advanced" or better in some way than the people of rural Afghanistan or Medieval Europe. We aren't "better" than our ancestors because we have computers and antibiotics. People aren't "primitive" or "advanced" based on their level of technology. And cultures can be very sophisticated (in terms of art, oral history, knowledge of the natural world, etc.) with low levels of technology.

That being said, people hugely underestimate the technology level of the PreColumbian Americas. The Aztecs, Incas, Maya, etc. had sophisticated cities as impressive as any in Europe. The Maya were expert astronomers. The Inca had advanced medicine such as blood transfusion (it helped that they all had the same blood type). Indigenous American agriculture produced supercrops like maize and potatoes, which are more productive per acre than any "Old World" crop. See 1491: New Revelations of the Americas Before Columbus by Charles C. Mann.
 

nickj47

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Everything needs a weakness.
This is it, right here. People will root for the oppressed, but it's hard to imagine a superhuman race being oppressed. To me, the best stories show an apparently weaker group of oppressed people figuring out a way to turn the tables on the oppressor. I don't think being invulnerable to them from the start would work as well.
 

frimble3

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What if, instead of making the locals 'superhuman', (which does sound a bit to easy) proximity to 'miracle substance' makes firearms stop working? (I mean, if you're going to have one physics-defying substance, why not make it do double duty?)
So, guns don't work, but there are spears, arrow, knives, blades, and throwing rocks. As well as bows, crossbows and catapults. But, no magic 'fire-sticks'.

This would make for more variety. The invaders could still beat small groups or disorganized ones, but against organized groups of trained fighters, it wouldn't be a walk-over.

Also, 'nearness to 'magical substance'' would keep it a land-bound war, no flying overhead and firing down.

And, it could be that in non-Europe, this isn't a problem, because there are only small quantities of 'magical substance', all of which is used for airships. But in not-South America, it's in the ground, in the water, in the plants, in the people and animals. It permeates the place.

Oh, and the looks on the invaders' faces when they fire that first volley! :roll:
 

Writing Jedi

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As with most ideas, the execution makes all the difference. Personally, I love the idea of turning the tables on would-be colonists and uprooting their expectations. But if the story becomes too preachy or stereotyped, you're going to lose me even though I'm sympathetic to the premise.

A trap to avoid is making the locals all saintly "noble savages" and the invaders all cartoonish villains. That's unrealistic and could be seen as offensive in itself.

I'm assuming the locals are also immune to disease? That was a big factor in decimating the indigenous populations of America and Australia.

Another factor was where colonists would exploit existing conflicts and turn native groups against each other. Perhaps you need some kind of communication system and/or a charismatic leader who helps the locals to work together against the invaders.

I think the bolded is important as well. Make your civilization believable, with conflicts even in among themselves, different tribes, good and bad citizens. If your civilization is just a utopia with no conflict and no complexity, it just sounds like a preachy old Star Trek episode.
 

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It would make sense to me that a civilization of people super-powered in this way would be less technologically advanced. Necessity being the mother of invention and all, people who were bulletproof would also be, say, large predator-proof, and while they might invent various weapons to be used in hunting, they'd be unable to turn those weapons on each other.

If their powers made them resistant to heat and cold, their housing requirements would be simpler - basically something to keep out the rain/store food. Super-strength would reduce their need for levers and pulleys to move large objects and make it easier to construct larger buildings. Really any superpower would likely affect their day-to-day life in some way or other.

Oooh, question. Are animals similarly affected by the substance? Hunting and fishing would be REALLY difficult if potential prey was impervious to being pierced with pointy things, so you might end up with a society of vegetarians. (In fact, there might not be any carnivores in their ecosystem at all).

All in all, I think it's an interesting idea.
 
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Thomas Vail

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What if, instead of making the locals 'superhuman', (which does sound a bit to easy) proximity to 'miracle substance' makes firearms stop working?
Errrgh, yeah, no, that's one of those things that might sound like a good idea in the spur of the moment, but but falls apart as soon as you think about it. Unless the miracle stuff is actually smart enough to pick and choose 'now guns don't work, because I don't want them to,' it just raises more questions than it answers. Because making 'guns not work' means 'adding energy to a mostly stable chemical compound no longer causes a reaction,' meaning basic chemical processes are completely altered in its vicinity, affecting a LOT more than gunpowder.

It's like discussion of settings where 'magic returns and technology no longer works,' where someone stipulates 'all technology is gone because electricity no longer works the same.'
"What about internal combustion engines? You don't have to use electricity to run-"
"Nope. Technology doesn't work."
"Steam engines? Because-"
"Nope, no technology."
"Okay, define 'technology,' because if 'adding heat to water makes it turn into a gas and expand' doesn't work, there's not just no technology, there's no anything, if fundamental physical laws of the universe integral to function of life and everything else have just stopped working."
 

BT Lamprey

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It seems like you'd be better off with NOT-South America the same way you're discussing NOT-Europe.

Furthermore, from what I can see, this is an exploration of European attitudes and colonialist structures... South America is being used as a passive object in the premise. There's nothing notable here about South America, other than how the Europeans view them. As a result, it comes off as a little bit insensitive, even though your intentions are obviously not derogatory or demeaning.
 

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Most of the books I can think of that are similar in plot and themes are older--the most recent I've read is Robin Hobb's Soldier's Son Trilogy (mentioned upthread already).

CJ Cherryh's Mri War books (the Faded Sun Trilogy) are science fiction and a few decades old now, but they are also along these lines.

The problematic bit about most of these stories, from Dune to Soldier's Son (an don't forget Lawrence of Arabia), is that the protagonist and "savior" is a member of the colonizing culture who "goes native," as it used to be called, and organizes or saves the victims--sort of a "white savior" archetype. This is less offensive, arguably, when the colonized culture is entirely fictitious, but it can be problematic when a culture is clearly modeled on a real-world one. Telling the story from the viewpoint of characters within the colonized culture, and having them win via their own agency, could be a refreshing change.