Change the World? Entertain? Both?

Harlequin said:

True. I retract the statement and would revise it to, I don't think there are new ideas in novels. Not if you break them down to basics.

But we don't break books down to basics, because there is no point; hence, every book is, at the very least, a fresh combination, and can be fresh even if every element is drawn from elsewhere (it usually is).

Everytime a writer says they have an idea which is wholly unique and new, asking around invariably comes up with previous references to those concepts in other, earlier books.

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No, just... No. My book is about an underground Civilization spanking us militarily for our cultural degeneration, our screen addiction and our flood of crummy books... "The Hand" is about a man stalked, benevolently it turns out, by his own severed member... Everything good has a unique feature or detail that makes it special overall... To say there is nothing new under the sun is an excuse for a lazy observation of details: Reality is never short of newness. Style serves the idea, but can never substitute to it.

G.

Roxxsmom said:

Or look at Lovecraft for horror. Great ideas, but the writing and characterization are pretty excruciating to read today.

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Lovecraft's characterization is perfectly suited to the story. Why do I need to know background unrelated to the main story? Because I will care more for a character pompously wasting my time?

Roxxsmom said:

Exactly. We can't predict which of the writers who are popular today (or less popular, but critically acclaimed) will be regarded as important decades or centuries from now.

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That is not the question. The question is, will any of them be remembered at all?

G.

Harlequin said:

@Gaston: Lovecraft's massive racism certainly wouldn't go over well today, but his style is abundant in anyone who writes anything gothic or decadent. I am an enormous Cthulhu fan and there is plenty of stuff in that vein or style if you still wish it. Newer Lovecraft-inspired fiction uses the best of his world without the unfortunate baggage.

The counterpoint to "old stuff wouldn't sell in modern times" is to point out that new stuff also wouldn't sell in old times. I.e., it's a truism.If you think 19th century fiction would flop in the 21st century, imagine how poorly it would do in the 12th century. It's not much of a point to say that things of their time were.... of their time? .

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The whole point of Western Civilization is to produce the timeless...

Lovecraft's first ever published work was "Providence in 2000 A.D.": the poem envisioned a future where "proper people" of English heritage were displaced by immigrants. It ends as such:

"Who art though, Sirrah?" I in wonder cry'd;
"A monstrous prodigy," the fellow sigh'd:
"Last of my kind, a lone unhappy man,
My name is Smith! I'm an American!"

Well that just sounds completely out-dated and out of touch, coming straight from 1912 now does it?

G.

Gaston said:

The whole point of Western Civilization is to produce the timeless...

Lovecraft's first ever published work was "Providence in 2000 A.D.": the poem envisioned a future where proper people of English heritage were displaced by immigrants. It ends as such:

"Last of my kind, a lone unhappy man,
My name is Smith! I'm an American!"

Well that just sounds completely out-dated and out of touch, coming straight from 1912 now does it?

G.

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Unfortunately, bigotry, racism and bad poetry never go out of date.

Gaston said:

No, just... No. My book is about an underground Civilization spanking us militarily for our cultural degeneration, our screen addiction and our flood of crummy books... "The Hand" is about a man stalked, benevolently it turns out, by his own severed member... Everything good has a unique feature or detail that makes it special overall... To say there is nothing new under the sun is an excuse for a lazy observation of details: Reality is never short of newness. Style serves the idea, but can never substitute to it.

G.

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Then by that definition everything written has something unique, because twists are easy to do.

Which is the entire point, that you've missed.

indianroads said:

In my younger days I was at the hospital a lot. As a boy living in the country it seemed I was continually falling out of trees and off cliffs - the worst of that was a broken elbow + wrist. Later I was in an auto accident (experienced a NDE), and another time I survived a knife fight and got cut up pretty good (as did the other guy). Even later I fought in full contact martial arts, so I was in and out of care for broken ribs, concussion etc.

Honestly I can't accurately describe what doctors or nurses did for me. I would describe the doctors as pompous assholes that did nothing but berate me. Nurses on the other hand helped me get better and were kind.

I'm not doing too much of that crazy stuff anymore, but my opinion of doctors and nurses remains.

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Thanks for the compliments but there are always going to be some good docs and some bad nurses. I didn't mean to present a stereotypical view of either profession.

I may be a pompous asshole, but I'll have you know I'm barely a doctor at all!

Harlequin said:

Then by that definition everything written has something unique, because twists are easy to do.

Which is the entire point, that you've missed.

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You said there is always a precedent to a basic idea. I posted two examples that seem unique to me.

"I retract the statement and would revise it to, I don't think there are new ideas in novels. Not if you break them down to basics. "

Gaston

Gaston said:

You said there is always a precedent to a basic idea. I posted two examples that seem unique to me.

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Do you really think "The Metamorphosis" is about insects?

Gaston said:

You said there is always a precedent to a basic idea. I posted two examples that seem unique to me.

"I retract the statement and would revise it to, I don't think there are new ideas in novels. Not if you break them down to basics. "

Gaston

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The underground civilisation plotting against humanity and the disembodied hand are both stories that have appeared multiple times. I'm not seeing anything new here. Unless it's in the detail.

Helix said:

The underground civilisation plotting against humanity and the disembodied hand are both stories that have appeared multiple times. I'm not seeing anything new here. Unless it's in the detail.

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Strictly motivated by a perceived cultural decline, and as an answer to that decline, specific novel title please... There may be a few, but I doubt many full lenght novels of any note.

The stalking hand has appeared many times since the book came out in the 70s, but never before, or since, as the central point of a long story (short stories are another animal). Again, novel title please...

You seem to think novels are this ancient form with a limitless depth of content... They have only really existed in numbers since the 1720s, with only England offering a broad-based lending system called Circulation Libraries for the next 140 years (WHSmith was one of many), before they finally started being affordable everywhere in the 1860-80s (mostly by shifting from linen to wood pulp). Novels became widely affordable less than 150 years ago, most of them being printed in the last 50... Aside Circulation Libraries and newspaper serials (both being only about 250 years old), as an ubiquitous form, novels are pretty newfangled...

Gaston

Gaston said:

You seem to think novels are this ancient form with a limitless depth of content...

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Storytelling predates the written word.

Gaston said:

Novels became widely affordable less than 150 years ago, most of them being printed in the last 50...

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You REALLY need to do some historical research.

caw

Gaston said:

Strictly motivated by a perceived cultural decline, and as an answer to that decline, specific novel title please... There may be a few, but I doubt many full lenght novels of any note.

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I see those goalposts buzzing around like a blue-arsed fly. What about The Coming Race by Edward Bulwer-Lytton? (Aside: It's the source of the brand name Bovril. I learnt this on the weekend thanks to Mark Kermode. There's no such thing as a wasted fact.)

Gaston said:

The stalking hand has appeared many times since the book came out in the 70s, but never before, or since, as the central point of a long story (short stories are another animal). Again, novel title please...

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The stalking hand is a much older story. It derives from the notion that the hand -- which is the body part associated with agency and authority -- has its own will, independent of the body. Sheridan Le Fanu used it in Ghost Stories of the Tiled House. Have you read Beast With Five Fingers by WF Harvey? It's the short story that re-energised the disembodied hand theme at the very beginning of the 20th Century.

Gaston said:

You seem to think novels are this ancient form with a limitless depth of content... They have only really existed in numbers since the 1720s, with only England offering a broad-based lending system called Circulation Libraries for the next 140 years (WHSmith was one of many), before they finally started being affordable everywhere in the 1860-80s (mostly by shifting from linen to wood pulp). Novels became widely affordable less than 150 years ago, most of them being printed in the last 50... Aside Circulation Libraries and newspaper serials (both being only about 250 years old), as an ubiquitous form, novels are pretty newfangled...

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Er...no. I'm saying that there are no new stories, only new combinations.

Stories antedate novels by some considerable time. They didn't just spring into being with the development of libraries. I'm not sure if you're familiar with the Iliad, the Odyssey, Norse sagas, the Mabinogion or -- more recently -- Le Morte D'Arthur -- but they're quite old. And they are still as popular af. (Note: Other ancient and early manuscripts are available.)

Btw, the last 50 years only takes us back to 1968.

Writers who don't read widely are hobbling themselves.

Just randomly, the "disembodied stalking hand" plot is so common in visual media, there's a whole TV Tropes page about it.

Everyone writes for their own reasons. I want people to be able to escape into my stories and enjoy being in the world I created with the characters I created. That's the kind of reading I enjoy, so that's what I'd like to give my readers. That said, there's nothing wrong with novels that accomplish more. To Kill a Mockingbird is my favorite novel. I think every human being should read it. 1984 is another one. Important, important novels. But that doesn't mean I have to aspire to the same thing. I also love Harry Potter and the Outlander series because they're fun and entertaining.

Gaston said:

Lovecraft's characterization is perfectly suited to the story. Why do I need to know background unrelated to the main story? Because I will care more for a character pompously wasting my time?

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Who said anything about his character's backgrounds?

That is not the question. The question is, will any of them be remembered at all?

G.

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I'm guessing that some will. I'm also guessing that some who deserve to be remembered won't be (and I'll bet there are some great works that we never heard of because they were lost or forgotten). Heck, I'll bet there are amazing works that never made it out of the boxes under their creators' beds.

be frank said:

Just randomly, the "disembodied stalking hand" plot is so common in visual media, there's a whole TV Tropes page about it.

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As soon as I read about the hand, I thought of Evil Dead II. "Who's laughing now!?"

be frank said:

Just randomly, the "disembodied stalking hand" plot is so common in visual media, there's a whole TV Tropes page about it.

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As another example, just last night I read a story by W.H. Hodgson (who died in 1918), titled "The Gateway of the Monster", on this same theme.

caw