Tackling scenes that are out of your comfort zone

ktdude · Sep 7, 2018

I've finally made it to the end section of my WIP (spec fic novel) and I've reached the point where inevitably, there has to be a battle between the various factions. I've had a placeholder scene for a while now actually with 'CRAZY BATTLE' written in it and nothing else. And I'm at the point now where the first draft is done, bar this scene.

The problem is, I'm not a massive fan of huge action-packed battle scenes, either as a reader or a writer. I've never written anything like this before and every time I go to tackle it I feel overwhelmed. I'm not really sure what's going to happen, but, unlike in other sections of the novel where I've been stumped and kind of written myself out of it, I can't seem to find the right place to start.

Any advice for this situation? Or just generally writing out of your comfort zone? Thanking you

EDITED to add - I do actually have the ending already. I can see it in my mind and it's been with me since the start - so at least I have a place to get to. It's the getting there that's the issue, as it has to feel authentic of course and not just a contrivance of a rush to get the fallout.

indianroads · Sep 7, 2018

What type of 'crazy battle' are you wanting to write? Are we talking hand to hand combat, knife or other weapons in single combat, or a war time shoot-em-up?

ktdude · Sep 7, 2018

indianroads said:
What type of 'crazy battle' are you wanting to write? Are we talking hand to hand combat, knife or other weapons in single combat, or a war time shoot-em-up?

Neither actually. It's kind of unconventional as it takes place in a dreamspace and is mostly going to be psychic warfare. So I guess I have some scope for not showing too much in the way of traditional fighting, but I'm still struggling with the pace and tension. It's feeling quite flat.

indianroads · Sep 7, 2018

ktdude said:
Neither actually. It's kind of unconventional as it takes place in a dreamspace and is mostly going to be psychic warfare. So I guess I have some scope for not showing too much in the way of traditional fighting, but I'm still struggling with the pace and tension. It's feeling quite flat.

Oh - sorry, but I've not ever written anything with psychic warfare in it, so I can't help you.

I did read something like that recently for "Hidden Gems" called Black Earth. Unfortunately I was just blasting through it and didn't linger much on the battle.

nickj47 · Sep 7, 2018

Try choreographing the battle, maybe just bullet points to start.

ktdude · Sep 7, 2018

indianroads said:
Oh - sorry, but I've not ever written anything with psychic warfare in it, so I can't help you.

I did read something like that recently for "Hidden Gems" called Black Earth. Unfortunately I was just blasting through it and didn't linger much on the battle.

No worries - was just looking for general advice really, it's more the fact that I am just not used to writing this kind of thing in general!

- - - Updated - - -

nickj47 said:
Try choreographing the battle, maybe just bullet points to start.

That could work - thanks! Definitely better than my current approach

cstoned · Sep 7, 2018

Ugh. Hate writing fight scenes. This kinda helped me, but for the most part I'm with you -- way out of my comfort zone. Which I usually navigate by just pretending like it is in my comfort zone. You know, trying my best to write it like I would write anything else, in my own voice and style (rather than bending over backwards to conform to genre conventions and losing my personal flair in the process).

Scythian · Sep 7, 2018

ktdude said:
Neither actually. It's kind of unconventional as it takes place in a dreamspace and is mostly going to be psychic warfare. So I guess I have some scope for not showing too much in the way of traditional fighting, but I'm still struggling with the pace and tension. It's feeling quite flat.

In Night Warriors by Graham Masterton most of the action takes place in dreamspace.

Old school horror, thriller, and pulp writers can be quite inspiring in the sense that they don’t give a damn and don’t let anything slow them down.

Where someone would think “Oh no, I can’t write a scene with Hitler in Berlin in 1939 without five years of extensive research beforehand,” the pulp writer has a five minute coffee and sits down and pokes the scene from the easiest angle: “During the last days the two sentries in front of the fuhrer's office had heard a lot of shouts and threats through the closed door, but today was different.”
Then the pulp writer thinks “Ok, I'm getting a feel for the scene. Why don’t I do a Hitler POV?” and again, instead of spending a PhD amount of time and effort in reading people’s journals about him, he has a quick cigarette and fingers start flying over the keyboard; “Adolf Hitler pounded the map of Poland with his fist. How dare these damn Slav subhumans try to bargain with him. Him!” and so on.

Or a writer has an asteroid smash into a city, and is paralyzed by having to a) research academic papers to do with this possible scenario, and b) taking writing classes to be able to do it justice.
The pulp writer has another cigarette, intuitively chooses the scene focus and structure best suited to his current abilities, and begins: “Jack was walking from the men’s toilet back to his office, and had just passed Susan in the corridor, when the whole building shuddered. The sound of shattered glass and screams erupted from all sides, but a mere second later was drowned out by a rising wave of sound so loud and solid it was as if an angry god had woken up. Jack saw Susan being thrown to one side, but most of his attention was concentrated on the cracks suddenly running through the walls and floor. No, no, no, he thought as….”

I guess what I’m trying to say is that a good dose of the pulps can do no end of good in getting one’s nerve back, because every scene and situation can be described in 50 different ways, and they can all work well, and you don’t have to be able to swing all 50 different ways, just the one. The reader just wants an interesting scene. How exactly it’s presented is secondary. Anyway, that's what edits are for. To turn a so-so pulp scene into something better. But first it needs to be written.

Hats off to people who dedicate years to be able to write a certain scene, but that's a personal artistic choice, not an actual craft necessity. A bit of research never hurt anyone, or some practice to raise the writing level, but imagination and confidence rule when it comes to ordirnary genre fiction, as opposed to 'leading world authority on subject' and/or 'revered style master' levels.

For what it’s worth—I recommend describing useful visuals from films and TV. You need person A hit person B with energy shooting from their hands (or eyes, or nipples)? Find a similar scene, watch it, describe it. Then modify to suit own text. And a very good schooling in all this, especially with dreamscapes, can be Graham Masterton. He's not as demoralizingly brilliant as Clive Barker, for example, on the prose level, but is super competent and has a well developed imagination which he promptly follows wherever it may take him. Brian Lumley is another such.

Dreamscape (1984) is a film that can help. Also other classical 1980's stuff like Nightmare on Elm Street, Hellraiser II, etc.

MaeZe · Sep 7, 2018

I have a number of scenes in my WIP that fit the OP criteria. What works for me is to write the scene in all its dorky splendor without worrying about it. It works as a framework then, from which to start molding it into the scene I want it to be.

ktdude · Sep 7, 2018

Thanks for the views, Scythian I think I went some way to unwittingly following this advice in the end. I wrote it from my MC's POV, it's as alien to her as it is to me so I've made it work for now - but as you say it will improve on the edit - I have something down for now! I'll check out the Graham Masterton stuff.

Good to hear I'm not alone!

Harlequin · Sep 7, 2018

I am afraid I rely on feedback for this kind if thing. All fight scenes around out of my zone, specifically the hassle of tracking emotional and physical reactions with a tight space and fast pace.

I'm better at the psychological than physical narration so try to zero in on that, and avoid my softest weaknesses as much as possible. But yeah, I still rely on beta feedback to nail hard sections in the end.

Shoeless · Sep 9, 2018

Scythian said:
In Night Warriors by Graham Masterton most of the action takes place in dreamspace.

Oh my God. You invoked Night Warriors. You are my new best friend, I DEVOURED that book as a teenager in highschool. I'm a little bummed out that it's not available on Kindle, I'd buy it in a heart beat to reread.

Getting back on topic, I really LOVE doing fight scenes, and have completely failed to avoid writing a few into every single novel I've written thus far. I think the key to writing good fight scenes is to just "high light" the fight. You don't have the luxury a cinematographer, or an expert fight choreographer that will give you a beautiful, extended battle that can run for minutes, so don't try to do a blow-by-blow description of the actions taking place. Really just concentrate on the big blows, and the consequences, the major strikes, the bleeding--or psychic damage, in this case--and how the combatants are getting worn down, or inspired as the fight continues.

Never, EVER get bogged down in trying to describe long, sequential actions. Readers don't need to see Warrior A's every single, individual deflection of a psychic blow from Warrior B. Think about what final effect or resolution you're going for in this battle. If it's more about a horrible battle that no one's supposed to win, concentrate on the characters' reactions to the casualties. If it's about an inspiring battle, put more focus on the way the warriors are helping each other, and the bonds forged from fighting for--and saving each others--lives. There's a lot of different ways to play this out. Only resort to the minute battle detail of a particular blow or defensive maneuver when it really matters, otherwise too much of that will quickly numb a reader.

indianroads · Sep 9, 2018

Harlequin said:
I am afraid I rely on feedback for this kind if thing. All fight scenes around out of my zone, specifically the hassle of tracking emotional and physical reactions with a tight space and fast pace.

I'm better at the psychological than physical narration so try to zero in on that, and avoid my softest weaknesses as much as possible. But yeah, I still rely on beta feedback to nail hard sections in the end.

As someone that has actually been in fights to the death and looked into the eyes of the dying - I'll say that there really isn't a ton of emotional stuff going on during that sort of combat. We're just doing our best to stay alive and emotions will slow you down and get you killed. Emotions are more pronounced before and after the event.

Unskilled fighters can lose fights and die because they let fear overtake them.

ktdude · Sep 9, 2018

Harlequin said:
I am afraid I rely on feedback for this kind if thing. All fight scenes around out of my zone, specifically the hassle of tracking emotional and physical reactions with a tight space and fast pace.

I'm better at the psychological than physical narration so try to zero in on that, and avoid my softest weaknesses as much as possible. But yeah, I still rely on beta feedback to nail hard sections in the end.

Thanks - I think I will be leaning on whoever my beta readers are for this sort of advice, for sure. It's all very much through the eyes of my protag at the minute but she's not actually physically involved, only emotionally, but it's ended up feeling very detached as a result.

Shoeless said:
Oh my God. You invoked Night Warriors. You are my new best friend, I DEVOURED that book as a teenager in highschool. I'm a little bummed out that it's not available on Kindle, I'd buy it in a heart beat to reread.

Getting back on topic, I really LOVE doing fight scenes, and have completely failed to avoid writing a few into every single novel I've written thus far. I think the key to writing good fight scenes is to just "high light" the fight. You don't have the luxury a cinematographer, or an expert fight choreographer that will give you a beautiful, extended battle that can run for minutes, so don't try to do a blow-by-blow description of the actions taking place. Really just concentrate on the big blows, and the consequences, the major strikes, the bleeding--or psychic damage, in this case--and how the combatants are getting worn down, or inspired as the fight continues.

Never, EVER get bogged down in trying to describe long, sequential actions. Readers don't need to see Warrior A's every single, individual deflection of a psychic blow from Warrior B. Think about what final effect or resolution you're going for in this battle. If it's more about a horrible battle that no one's supposed to win, concentrate on the characters' reactions to the casualties. If it's about an inspiring battle, put more focus on the way the warriors are helping each other, and the bonds forged from fighting for--and saving each others--lives. There's a lot of different ways to play this out. Only resort to the minute battle detail of a particular blow or defensive maneuver when it really matters, otherwise too much of that will quickly numb a reader.

This is awesome advice, thank you so much. I love the angle of focusing on the casualties/the helping or banding together - I will definitely incorporate this in my later drafts.

Harlequin · Sep 9, 2018

I would respectfully say that depends on the fight, Indian.

For example in ms1, one of the characters ends up fighting a clone of his sister, and the clone alternates between pleading for its life and attacking him, so the fight is very much psychological--he'd win comfortably if not for the creep factor + irrational unease of killing someone who looks and sounds like his twin.

Emotion is also needed for tension of any kind. It doesnt have to be a mental diatribe of OH NOs because I agree that does trend towards the silly. It can also be expressed through the actions taken, and the behaviours of the combatants involved.

indianroads · Sep 9, 2018

@Harlequin - that's definitely NOT a situation I've run into. :tongue

And I would think the distraction would be debilitating - the first time, after that there's a diminishing rate of return... in fact, you might try letting your MC pretend to fall for it again, then when the bad person moves in he/she strikes preemptively?

Harlequin · Sep 9, 2018

heh, that ms is long finished and trunked, many months hence

I appreciate the suggestion but yeah I'm not looking to change a dead MS at this stage.

In the end, I was happy with how the chapter turned out. I don't do a lot of heavy action chapters and I'm not good at them generally, so it needed masses of revision, but that's fine, that's how these things go: problem areas need more work. It's probably one of my favorite chapters in the book, because of how much work it needed.

Anwyay, I digress on a mss which is of little relevance atm.

Re other, current MS: The fighting in it is mostly willpower based, so again somewhat cerebral in execution.

Scythian · Sep 9, 2018

indianroads said:
/.../ And I would think the distraction would be debilitating - the first time, after that there's a diminishing rate of return... in fact, you might try letting your MC pretend to fall for it again, then when the bad person moves in he/she strikes preemptively?

That's great advice, for any protracted fight scene dependant on bluffs, feints, and misdirection.

angeliz2k · Sep 11, 2018

Also keep in mind the character's experience of the events may be warped. When you're in a tense, life-and-death situation, things can become surreal, and your perception goes wonky. The characters taking part in the figh might only experience it in flashes of color and bursts of sound. There may be very little thought, or just one really clear thought. I was in a bad accident a few years ago. Someone pulled out into the road in front of me, and I slammed on the brakes. I remember it as brief images like slides being projected onto my memory, not as a smooth moving scene. I also distinctly remember thinking, "Wow, this is going to be close," and not quite realizing we were going to hit until we did. Brains work in funny ways under this kind of pressure.

Locked · Sep 11, 2018

nickj47 said:
Try choreographing the battle, maybe just bullet points to start.

This would be my advice as well. I've written (and rewritten) a lot of fight scenes, mostly gunfights and some hand-to-hand, and I've found what works best for me is if I thoroughly outline the whole scene from start to finish ahead of time. As for finding the right place to start, I would try going back at least a few pages before the battle takes place. Read those few pages over, put yourself in your character's shoes and try to follow their lead into the coming battle.

Best of luck.

ktdude · Sep 12, 2018

angeliz2k said:
Also keep in mind the character's experience of the events may be warped. When you're in a tense, life-and-death situation, things can become surreal, and your perception goes wonky. The characters taking part in the figh might only experience it in flashes of color and bursts of sound. There may be very little thought, or just one really clear thought. I was in a bad accident a few years ago. Someone pulled out into the road in front of me, and I slammed on the brakes. I remember it as brief images like slides being projected onto my memory, not as a smooth moving scene. I also distinctly remember thinking, "Wow, this is going to be close," and not quite realizing we were going to hit until we did. Brains work in funny ways under this kind of pressure.

That's a good point, thanks. I've had a similar experience and agree with your portrayal of it. I will bear this in mind and try writing it from this perspective to see how it works.

Locked said:
This would be my advice as well. I've written (and rewritten) a lot of fight scenes, mostly gunfights and some hand-to-hand, and I've found what works best for me is if I thoroughly outline the whole scene from start to finish ahead of time. As for finding the right place to start, I would try going back at least a few pages before the battle takes place. Read those few pages over, put yourself in your character's shoes and try to follow their lead into the coming battle.

Best of luck.

Thanks - this is good advice too! I will do that.

blacbird · Sep 12, 2018

ktdude said:
The problem is, I'm not a massive fan of huge action-packed battle scenes, either as a reader or a writer.

Then don't write it. Is this scene really important, or is the outcome, the result of the action what's really important? You don't have to fill in all the blanks for a reader to get what's going on. If the battle scene is nothing but window-dressing, leave it out.

I have read a lot, both in fiction and nonfiction. Everybody familiar with English-French history knows how important the Battle of Agincourt was for the history of both those nations. But we don't have to read twenty pages about the French knights in their chain-mail and the English longbowmen, with lush choreography about the movements and carnage to understand that impact. Maybe that's how your story needs to function.

caw

Harlequin · Sep 13, 2018

Agree wtih blacbird. My favoritefight scenes are often only a few sentences long--showcasing realism, I feel. Most fights are over quickly.

The penultimate battle of Temeraire, in Naomi Novik's Napoleonic dragon books, is skipped entirely. After 8 books of build up, no battle could be written to do justice to that moment, so she didn't try.

Toto Too · Sep 13, 2018

Harlequin said:
Agree wtih blacbird. My favoritefight scenes are often only a few sentences long--showcasing realism, I feel. Most fights are over quickly.

The penultimate battle of Temeraire, in Naomi Novik's Napoleonic dragon books, is skipped entirely. After 8 books of build up, no battle could be written to do justice to that moment, so she didn't try.

Well this has to done very delicately, doesn't it? I'm thinking about the buildup throughout the book more than the fight scene itself. Isn't it true that one of the worst things you can do as an author is make promises that you don't keep? If the book is obviously building up to a big climatic battle, and then you basically skip it, I don't know how well that would be received. Maybe be careful about the implied promises leading up to the battle.

Harlequin · Sep 13, 2018

I was trying to think of a non Gene Wolfe example for once

The whole series in htose Temeraire books is battle after battle after battle. It worked, anyway.

Tackling scenes that are out of your comfort zone

ktdude

indianroads

Wherever I go, there I am.

ktdude

indianroads

Wherever I go, there I am.

nickj47

ktdude

cstoned

Scythian

MaeZe

ktdude

Harlequin

Eat books, not brains!

Shoeless

indianroads

Wherever I go, there I am.

ktdude

Harlequin

Eat books, not brains!

indianroads

Wherever I go, there I am.

Harlequin

Eat books, not brains!

Scythian

angeliz2k

never mind the shorty

Locked

ktdude

blacbird

Harlequin

Eat books, not brains!

Toto Too

Harlequin

Eat books, not brains!