My Main Antagonist Makes A Very Good Point about her plan, Help.

Vida Paradox

Code Surfer
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 23, 2018
Messages
183
Reaction score
27
Location
Drifting in Space
All right everyone, Vida here!

Today, I have an interesting philosophical question to ask you. (And no this isn't a debate whether the we currently live in the matrix or not)

If you have a chance to live in a perfect, ideal world you've always dreamed of, will you take it?

It'll be perfect in any shape, way, or form. There will be challenges, struggles, beautiful daily life full of wonder and adventure! It will be heaven-like (Though let's put the debate about religion away.) and you will achieve the greatest form of happiness, accomplishment, and love in that world.

Now, what if I say that you can? But you'll have to leave your current world forever. Will you take it?

Okay then, but what if, you'll have to give up on your physical body and transfer yourself into giant supercomputer. Will you take it?

Well... There's no drawbacks to this actually. Let's just assume that this computer is powered by a Black Hole and isn't going to run out of power millions of years after the last star in the universe has faded away. The life simulation will be vivid and you won't be able to tell from it to reality.



Okay, let's stop for a moment, time for the real question.

This is my plot, and after thinking about this for a while, my main antagonist doesn't sound like a big jerk. The big bad's goal is to put the MC inside a suspended animation where she can live a happy perfect life while the main antagonist slowly siphons away all her Chaos Essence without killing her.

However, the process can't be reversed and the MC is trapped inside that perfect dream world forever.

A perfect dream world mind you, the one stated earlier.

What do you think? And I would love to hear your personal choice to this matter.

And as always, Thanks for Reading!!!

PS: The Chaos Essence is the Big Bad's property in the first place and she promised not to use it to blow up the world. (I'm planning on having her use something else to blow up the world)
 
Last edited:

OldHat63

Banned
Flounced
Joined
Aug 21, 2018
Messages
404
Reaction score
30
Location
Lost in the woods of TN and prefer it that way
No. Forever is a long damn time, and having only someone else's word on how things are gonna go - someone who wants something from me - I'd pass.

Besides, the whole idea is to get out of the matrix, not cozy up in it and live a delusion.

Oh, and the last stars won't wink out of existence for many Billions of years, if all goes as predicted. Though I'm not sure if anyone really knows what the life span of a black hole is... Not been anything I've ever looked into really. I only know they're generally considered to be on the "To Be Avoided" list.



O.H.
 

cornflake

practical experience, FTW
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 11, 2012
Messages
16,171
Reaction score
3,734
All right everyone, Vida here!

Today, I have an interesting philosophical question to ask you. (And no this isn't a debate whether the we currently live in the matrix or not)

If you have a chance to live in a perfect, ideal world you've always dreamed of, will you take it?

It'll be perfect in any shape, way, or form. There will be challenges, struggles, beautiful daily life full of wonder and adventure! It will be heaven-like (Though let's put the debate about religion away.) and you will achieve the greatest form of happiness, accomplishment, and love in that world.

Now, what if I say that you can? But you'll have to leave your current world forever. Will you take it?

Okay then, but what if, you'll have to give up on your physical body and transfer yourself into giant supercomputer. Will you take it?

Well... There's no drawbacks to this actually. Let's just assume that this computer is powered by a Black Hole and isn't going to run out of power millions of years until the last star in the universe has faded away. The life simulation will be vivid and you won't be able to tell from it to reality.



Okay, let's stop for a moment, time for the real question.

This is my plot, and after thinking about this for a while, my main antagonist doesn't sound like a big jerk. The big bad's goal is to put the MC inside a suspended animation where she can live a happy perfect life while the main antagonist slowly siphons away all her Chaos Essence without killing her.

However, the process can't be reversed and the MC is trapped inside that perfect dream world forever.

A perfect dream world mind you, the one stated earlier.

What do you think? And I would love to hear your personal choice to this matter.

And as always, Thanks for Reading!!!

PS: The Chaos Essence is the Big Bad's property in the first place and she promised not to use it to blow up the world. (I'm planning on having her use something else to blow up the world)

I don't understand -- the thread says the antagonist makes a very good point, but there's no point being made?

You're just asking if people would upload their consciousness I think -- though she doesn't seem to have a great handle on basic science if she thinks it'll be millions of years until the last star "fades away," heh.
 

Vida Paradox

Code Surfer
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 23, 2018
Messages
183
Reaction score
27
Location
Drifting in Space
I don't understand -- the thread says the antagonist makes a very good point, but there's no point being made?

You're just asking if people would upload their consciousness I think -- though she doesn't seem to have a great handle on basic science if she thinks it'll be millions of years until the last star "fades away," heh.

My god, a one word typo ruined everything...

It's supposed to be AFTER the last stars died!!! not UNTIL!!!

Let me edit that, just a sec!
 

Harlequin

Eat books, not brains!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 21, 2010
Messages
4,584
Reaction score
1,412
Location
The land from whence the shadows fall
Website
www.sunyidean.com
The Matrix does deal with this question, though I know you likely don't want the comparison.

In short, the "real" world of the Matrix is horrendous and nasty. The "fake" world is much better for a variety of reasons. And the only good argument for favoring the real world over the fake one is ideological: the belief that reality is objective, rather than subjective, and that the physical reality is inherently better than the created virtual one, by virture of that objectivity.

I.e., it's a stance of principle.

In relation to your MS, how your MC reacts to this offer will depend on her own philosophical constructs. Does she consider reality to be objective, as in one type of reality has more weight than another? And is that inherent quality sufficient to make it more valuable than any other reality she could experience?

If she takes the Matrix line, then the dilemma is straightforward. Physical reality is better than virtual reality because it is more "real" (but you'd have to really dig deep into her beliefs on that, which the Matrix never did; it just made a huge assumptionin that regard.)

If you do not take the Matrix line, there are other things you could consider. For example, that perfect world is only going to be perfect for as long as the MC behaves. What happens when she goes berserk and starts murdering NPCs (for lack of better term) in the virtual world? What if she goes out of her way to create hell on earth? In the long term, paradise is unsustainable the moment you bring sentient life into that equation. We ruin shit, and there is no way around that. (This is why the Matrix intentionally creates a flawed reality for its humans to inhabit).

In the latter situation, your MC (if she thinks of it) can make a very valid case for paradise only being sustainable if all participants are strictly controlled. Alternatively, all participants in your virtual reality could have their personalities overwritten to make them more complacent. Your MC could then make a case for the erosion of free will and your antagonist, in response, could make a case for free will not existing at all. If you wanted.



Another suggestion; your MC could make the case for not wanting to move from a universe which has no god (assuming she isn't religious) into a universe which does, because the person controlling the virtual server is effectively her creator. Ambition and goals and philosophy aside, eternity is a long time to be wrong (as they say) and your antagonist could change the universe at a whim and make it unpleasant. This objection would again be one of principle, but rather than objecting to the perceived "realness" of a virtual reality your MC would be objecting to the ownership of the person running it, on the basis of their unproven qualifications to manage such responsibility.


Hope that all makes sense, let me know if I've bungled any words.
 
Last edited:

Maryn

Sees All
Staff member
Super Moderator
Moderator
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
55,447
Reaction score
25,473
Location
Snow Cave
What I'd be doing is creating a character whose daily existence is dreadfully unhappy, filled with pain, or otherwise awful. Someone in untreatable pain with no hope for improvement might be more likely to go for such a deal. A person who's physically and mentally healthy would refuse.
 

Marian Perera

starting over
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 29, 2006
Messages
14,333
Reaction score
4,578
Location
Heaven is a place on earth called Toronto.
Website
www.marianperera.com
This sounds a bit like "Better Than Life" from Red Dwarf.

And I'd decline. I don't think existing for millions of years would work for me, and existing for millions of years in some sort of perfect world would be worse. Like that Twilight Zone episode "A Nice Place To Visit".

Life is messy and unpredictable and difficult and it ends eventually.

It's still better than your antagonist's alternative.
 

Vida Paradox

Code Surfer
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 23, 2018
Messages
183
Reaction score
27
Location
Drifting in Space
The Matrix does deal with this question, though I know you likely don't want the comparison.

In short, the "real" world of the Matrix is horrendous and nasty. The "fake" world is much better for a variety of reasons. And the only good argument for favoring the real world over the fake one is ideological: the belief that reality is objective, rather than subjective, and that the physical reality is inherently better than the created virtual one, by virture of that objectivity.

I.e., it's a stance of principle.

In relation to your MS, how your MC reacts to this offer will depend on her own philosophical constructs. Does she consider reality to be objective, as in one type of reality has more weight than another? And is that inherent quality sufficient to make it more valuable than any other reality she could experience?

If she takes the Matrix line, then the dilemma is straightforward. Physical reality is better than virtual reality because it is more "real" (but you'd have to really dig deep into her beliefs on that, which the Matrix never did; it just made a huge assumptionin that regard.)

If you do not take the Matrix line, there are other things you could consider. For example, that perfect world is only going to be perfect for as long as the MC behaves. What happens when she goes berserk and starts murdering NPCs (for lack of better term) in the virtual world? What if she goes out of her way to create hell on earth? In the long term, paradise is unsustainable the moment you bring sentient life into that equation. We ruin shit, and there is no way around that. (This is why the Matrix intentionally creates a flawed reality for its humans to inhabit).

In the latter situation, your MC (if she thinks of it) can make a very valid case for paradise only being sustainable if all participants are strictly controlled. Alternatively, all participants in your virtual reality could have their personalities overwritten to make them more complacent. Your MC could then make a case for the erosion of free will and your antagonist, in response, could make a case for free will not existing at all. If you wanted.



Another suggestion; your MC could make the case for not wanting to move from a universe which has no god (assuming she isn't religious) into a universe which does, because the person controlling the virtual server is effectively her creator. Ambition and goals and philosophy aside, eternity is a long time to be wrong (as they say) and your antagonist could change the universe at a whim and make it unpleasant. This objection would again be one of principle, but rather than objecting to the perceived "realness" of a virtual reality your MC would be objecting to the ownership of the person running it, on the basis of their unproven qualifications to manage such responsibility.


Hope that all makes sense, let me know if I've bungled any words.

Hi! Vida here!

That was a very thoughtful and insightful comment. I really, really appreciate that. That was very good and very amazing!

Now, let me think this through...

Hmm...

Okay, okay, got it!

Hmm...

The MC's a ten years old girl...

Hmm...

Okay, so, since she's still young and pretty simple. Maybe her only attachment is those around her? Maybe if I can make the Bad Guy capture her and put her in a fake reality where she continues her life with her loved ones, that'll work?

Yeah! I can skip the whole philosophical dilemma of reality and matrix! That's it!

Okay, I got a good grasp of my story's twist ending now. Thanks a lot!!!

By the way, that's all I can offer actually. But I'd still like to hear your thoughts about the whole Reality vs Matrix thoughts. It could probably deepen my Main Antagonist's background and personality.

And as always, thanks for reading!!!
 

Aggy B.

Not as sweet as you think
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 28, 2008
Messages
11,882
Reaction score
1,557
Location
Just north of the Deep South
So, I'm pretty sure that The Matrix made an argument that the human mind rejected perfection, thus they had to make the virtual world shitty too.

Whether that's a philosophical idea or just a theory that our evolutionary instincts expect challenge and death and upheaval, I don't know. But it is a long-standing SF theme that supposed utopic existences only last as long as the inhabitants don't question their surroundings or push the boundaries of what makes them perfect.
 

Harlequin

Eat books, not brains!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 21, 2010
Messages
4,584
Reaction score
1,412
Location
The land from whence the shadows fall
Website
www.sunyidean.com
Haha ty. I'm glad you got some use out of my waffle.

I suspect the Matrix made the paradise lost argument mostly so they could use the conceit of starting the story in a "familiar" world. And then had to backwards-justify their setting.

Subjective reality is something of an obsession. Both my mss so far center around those ideas.
 

lilyWhite

Love and Excitement
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 13, 2012
Messages
5,357
Reaction score
766
Location
under a pile of mistletoe
I'd think the biggest thing here is all of the people the MC would be leaving behind. They might be living in an ideal virtual world, but what about the people who care for them, who wouldn't want to lose them? Even if versions of those people exist in the virtual world, the MC wouldn't still be around with them in the real world. Not thinking about their real loved ones would make them look incredibly selfish, and even more so if they have reason to believe the antagonist still has malevolent intentions for when they're out of the way.
 

Shoeless

Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 18, 2009
Messages
2,308
Reaction score
295
The only issue I see with this story is that, realistically, if the antagonist is dealing with a 10 year old in a simulation, there's very little chance that this won't succeed. So... I guess putting the kid in the simulation isn't the actual conflict of the story? She has no way to fight, or even understand what's happening to her at that age, unless she's way, way on the far end of the bell curve in terms of intellect/perception/maturity.

She doesn't even need to know that she's in a simulation, unless, for plot reasons, she needs to be made aware and willingly make a choice. Otherwise, just wait until she goes to bed, apply general anesthetic once she's asleep, and then do whatever's required to hook her up and upload her into an exact simulation of her current life, that only gradually morphs into a "perfect life" as she matures. She wouldn't suspect anything if it's done this way, unless the simulation itself is riddled with glitches and she eventually catches on due to that. Otherwise, being put into a sim at the age of 10 isn't wildly different from having a child be in the sim from birth. If she's unaware that she's in a simulation, and that simulation has enough fidelity with reality that the two can't be easily differentiated, then it doesn't even have to be a perfect life. She'll just carry on, getting good grades, or bad grades, being part of the crowd, or not, and never know what her situation is.
 

Aggy B.

Not as sweet as you think
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 28, 2008
Messages
11,882
Reaction score
1,557
Location
Just north of the Deep South
Haha ty. I'm glad you got some use out of my waffle.

I suspect the Matrix made the paradise lost argument mostly so they could use the conceit of starting the story in a "familiar" world. And then had to backwards-justify their setting.

Subjective reality is something of an obsession. Both my mss so far center around those ideas.

I just seem to recall that being a big part of Smith's "Humanity is a virus" monologue in the first one. And the purpose of familiarity in regard to The Matrix was because it was meant to make you wonder if your world is real. (Of course, deja vu is supposedly a symptom of micro-seizures, but I guess the robots want us to think that. ;) ) But, it's still a pretty consistent thing in utopic/dystopic fiction. Even The Giver has elements of the dissonance that occurs when folks run into something that disrupts the "perfection" and the way that element increases as they push harder to find the source/truth.

So reality at some point becomes just how much is one person able to lie to themselves about what they perceive. A young mind going into a simulated world might be better suited because they might accept what they're told more willingly and not question the more radical elements that would be integrated to make their perfect world.
 

OldHat63

Banned
Flounced
Joined
Aug 21, 2018
Messages
404
Reaction score
30
Location
Lost in the woods of TN and prefer it that way
Honestly, Vida's story just makes me think of Marvel's Agents of Shield, and the season where most of 'em were stuck in the Framework.

And that story arc alone was enough for me to say No Thank You to any matrix, framework, or other computer-generated reality. Especially when it starts to collapse.


O.H.
 
Last edited:

Kjbartolotta

Potentially has/is dog
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 15, 2014
Messages
4,197
Reaction score
1,049
Location
Los Angeles
I don't know if I can even wrap my mind around the concept of 'objective reality'. It's turtles all the way down!
 

Quinn_Inuit

Not a real eskimo
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 22, 2013
Messages
938
Reaction score
110
Age
44
Location
DC area
Website
www.steve-quinn.net
I don't know if I can even wrap my mind around the concept of 'objective reality'. It's turtles all the way down!

And me, riding a turtle straight down, waving my fedora and shouting "Yee-Haw!" all the way.

It's basically the perfect high, but just because it's the perfect high doesn't mean I'd want it. Highs, even imperfect ones, mean more to me if I've earned them.