I find it useful to get a sense of what editors want, or are like. Then hopefully when I get my sub list, I won't be totally baffled as to who these people are. I figure industry knowledge never hurts.
What Fiction Writers Are Getting Deals With Publishers?
- Thread starter John Falcon
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Social media in terms of selling books often works in a similar fashion to hand-selling books.
Hand-selling happens at a bookstore when someone (usually staff, but often, other customers) has a conversation with a potential book-buyer about what they like to read or what kind of book they're looking for. It relies on the seller's knowledge of books and what readers like and what books are likely to appeal to someone who likes book A or Author z. It's what's behind online retailers "buyers who bought X also bought Y."
It's called word-of-mouth outside of bookstores.
Social media also helps sell books in at least two other ways:
1. You know a love author's work and are informed via social media about what the next book is, and when you can buy it. You're also potentially interested in books they read and recommend (like seeing an author you know and like say good things on the cover of a book by an unfamiliar author). I was looking at a range of SF/F books in a used book store many years ago when the owner casually chatting about who my favorite SF/F authors were introduced me to Lois McMaster Bujold's Vorkosigan series. I'd never read any or heard of her (this is what happens in grad school). I've bought pretty much all her books.
2. You see someone whose work you don't know say interesting and smart things, not necessarily about their books or books at all, but it's enough to make you click a link to see their books. (I bought Jo Walton's first book because she was smart and interesting on UseNet; I've bought pretty much all of them since. I bought Elizabeth Bear's first book because I stumbled on her LiveJournal; I've bought pretty much all of them since. I bought Elizabeth Bonesteel's first book because I saw her saying smart, interesting things on AW. This is true also of eqb, and Alice Loweecey, and KTC and Haskins, Francis Knight, Erin Morgenstern, Adrienne Kress and about fifty other AW members, more than I can name here).
Ultimately social media (including AW) sells books because authors participate in conversations without necessarily even mentioning their books. They're not trying to sell their books; they're trying to talk to other people about things both parties find interesting.
BUT generally social media sales are one book to one reader. That's great; what publishers hope for are groundswells where a book becomes so talked about that many people buy it, and retailers take notice.
You can't really control that, and attempts to game the system generally end badly.
So yes, social media is important, but not as important as finishing the next book and getting it on the shelf. Because a new book tends to sell the back list, too.
Hand-selling happens at a bookstore when someone (usually staff, but often, other customers) has a conversation with a potential book-buyer about what they like to read or what kind of book they're looking for. It relies on the seller's knowledge of books and what readers like and what books are likely to appeal to someone who likes book A or Author z. It's what's behind online retailers "buyers who bought X also bought Y."
It's called word-of-mouth outside of bookstores.
Social media also helps sell books in at least two other ways:
1. You know a love author's work and are informed via social media about what the next book is, and when you can buy it. You're also potentially interested in books they read and recommend (like seeing an author you know and like say good things on the cover of a book by an unfamiliar author). I was looking at a range of SF/F books in a used book store many years ago when the owner casually chatting about who my favorite SF/F authors were introduced me to Lois McMaster Bujold's Vorkosigan series. I'd never read any or heard of her (this is what happens in grad school). I've bought pretty much all her books.
2. You see someone whose work you don't know say interesting and smart things, not necessarily about their books or books at all, but it's enough to make you click a link to see their books. (I bought Jo Walton's first book because she was smart and interesting on UseNet; I've bought pretty much all of them since. I bought Elizabeth Bear's first book because I stumbled on her LiveJournal; I've bought pretty much all of them since. I bought Elizabeth Bonesteel's first book because I saw her saying smart, interesting things on AW. This is true also of eqb, and Alice Loweecey, and KTC and Haskins, Francis Knight, Erin Morgenstern, Adrienne Kress and about fifty other AW members, more than I can name here).
Ultimately social media (including AW) sells books because authors participate in conversations without necessarily even mentioning their books. They're not trying to sell their books; they're trying to talk to other people about things both parties find interesting.
BUT generally social media sales are one book to one reader. That's great; what publishers hope for are groundswells where a book becomes so talked about that many people buy it, and retailers take notice.
You can't really control that, and attempts to game the system generally end badly.
So yes, social media is important, but not as important as finishing the next book and getting it on the shelf. Because a new book tends to sell the back list, too.
What can we even do, then? I kinda feel no matter what I do now re: social media or no it will be shown to be wrong and useless. Don't engage and I'm depriving my self of a platform, engage and spend a whole lot of time not writing only to find I haven't been engaging in the correct way. The agents might not agree, but they're all sure they're right! Sorry to whinge, but I find this particularly frustrating.
Focus on writing a really good book. That's the one thing that will truly make a difference.
I didn't watch either but from the comments of other posters it's obviously a bunch of crap. Once again someone says new folks can't get deals? They know nothing of the publishing industry! A company would rather sign a new writer than some veteran with a horrible sales history. Also, weren't we all debut writers at one time? I know I was before I first got published. No one is coming out of their mother's womb with a publishing deal. Can we please retire this stupid notion?
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Also, as a trade published author turned indie, I am so sick of folks acting like self-publishing is a last resort or something you do to get a publisher. Self-publishing is as valid of an option as trade publishing. If you want to trade publish then try that route but don't fool yourself thinking if you put out your own stuff it will lead to a deal. Unless you sell millions of copies of your indie work, no publisher is going to even care.
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Thanks. This and the above posts are somewhat reassuring. I'll keep my social media engagement limited to what it is for the time being (and keep boycotting Twittter as a matter of principle, hoping that doesn't mark me as 'difficult to work with', lol. A man has to have some principles.)
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Just about ready to sign my Big 5 contract this month. No previous books, no social media apart from my friends on Twitter and retweeting cat memes. But the story was good and I picked up both agent and publisher in the past 12 weeks.
So there's that!
So there's that!
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Which is exactly what makes the general put-down of Michael Levin here unconvincing... Fiction is a severely shrinking (or shrunk) industry, and any insider will tell you the barrier to an unknown author has never been higher. This predictably results in less risk taking, and that is a dynamic which drives down overall quality, as any recent visit to a bookstore will painfully attest... In that context, the notion "all you need is a great book" seems exceedingly suspect.
Levin has been around long enough to remember a time the industry was unrecognizable from today, and he also has no demonstrable motive to invent. I researched and made a few videos on the state of the industry, and what I found correlates well with his observations:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFrNcDRIN6lsARYCoCvbevQ
Gaston
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The question is, is this any different for "known" authors?
Unless you've read every book in the bookstore, I'm not sure how you can assert this. I've read some amazing books published in the last five years - everything from SFF to mystery to romance to YA.
And as I've been reading for a long time (and worked at a library a few centuries back, and was very familiar with the bestseller lists), I can tell you there's always been pulpy, popular stuff that sells like buckets for no discernible reason. There's also always been pulpy, popular stuff that sells like buckets because it's fun, and nobody cares that it's not Shakespeare.
Interesting that nobody said that. What has been said is that a great book gives you the best chance, and that's 100% true.
I'm really done with all the hogwash that all modern published books are crap, that people trying to get published are crap, that if you succeed you're crap, like some kind of reverse honor test where you only win if you manage to craft an incomprehensible literary tome which nobody will buy.
If you want publishers to take more risks, then BUY MORE BOOKS. Advocate and boost the authors you enjoy. Vote for them in awards. And if you also happen to self publish, stop flogging your wares for 99p or permafree and training readers to exchange pennies for labour.
If you want publishers to take more risks, then BUY MORE BOOKS. Advocate and boost the authors you enjoy. Vote for them in awards. And if you also happen to self publish, stop flogging your wares for 99p or permafree and training readers to exchange pennies for labour.
I am not sure what kind of books you are reading but I have been reading some amazing debuts in literary fiction in the last couple of years. This year, 2 books on the Booker Prize longlist are from debut authors, and I think there was 2 debuts last year too. Looking at all the announcements I see on a regular basis for debut novel being launch I would say there is still a demand for them from agents.
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Or when you have genres lining up on opposite sides of the room to have a go at each other because [GENRE GOES HERE] is crap compared to "ours" or even authors within a genre making differentiation as to what's "crap" and what's "Publishable" in it...
I feel like the idea "its harder than ever to get published" has been true every time someone has said it, for at least 20 years. Yes, it was harder than the year prior.
I feel a self-pub track record can help, because it says something about you and makes you a known commodity.
I am not at all sure that a self-pub record lets you sub anything that isn't 100%, and I am somewhat dubious--if you self-pubbed 15 books, perhaps you should have gone right in with some of those, at least if "trade" was your goal in the first place--maybe you spent your capital "building a name" at pennies on the dollar.
And I am really, REALLY suspect of advice from a guy peddling ghost-writing, telling you "without anything behind you, it is impossible to break free...….hint hint" Levin may be a good guy, I have no idea, but that sounds pretty damn self-serving. So now, let's say I saw that, and was skeptical.....what's a snake to do?
I SUPPOSE I could read almost anything publishing-related, or even browse the shelves at B&N, and see if there is any such thing as a debut author...….and satisfy my snakey curiosity in like 15 minutes.
It is hard to get published. Strike that, it is extremely COMPETETIVE, and that's not a small fucking distinction. You can't say that acceptance rates are 0.05% or whatever they are, and act like that number exists in a bubble--the rate for extremely good writing is probably closer to say 5% or whatever, and for utter dog-shit, it is closer to 0.00005%. Yeah, things are getting tighter, but that absolutely doesn't mean new work never comes out. It means the work has to be better (we can argue metrics for "better" in a dozen later threads) and the acceptance rates and competition is still higher, but there's a reason folks are telling you "the work matters."
And I understand e-publishing is a completely viable model, but I still feel there's a lot of folks who think that means "oh, I just have to e-pub my first 5 or 6 books, build a fan base, and than I go Big 5"...….doesn't work that way. If you can't nurture a fan base you probably won't sell. If you don't sell, SAYING you have 5 novels out there and literally dozens of excited fans have read them doesn't give you anything at all....if anything it actually says you've demonstrated an ability to flop.
So write a good book. Then make it great. Then, make it morer betterer than that. Then do whichever route you wanted with the fucking thing, there is no "right way." But A) know what you want and make a plan to get there...a real plan, and B) make that thing shine, because in NO model is there room for sub-par shit. There isn't a singlular path, but I do feel like there's a lot of folks mislead into believing there is and wasting their talents chasing something half-baked because of a blog or 2.....don't just know WHAT you are doing, know WHY you are doing it....
I feel a self-pub track record can help, because it says something about you and makes you a known commodity.
I am not at all sure that a self-pub record lets you sub anything that isn't 100%, and I am somewhat dubious--if you self-pubbed 15 books, perhaps you should have gone right in with some of those, at least if "trade" was your goal in the first place--maybe you spent your capital "building a name" at pennies on the dollar.
And I am really, REALLY suspect of advice from a guy peddling ghost-writing, telling you "without anything behind you, it is impossible to break free...….hint hint" Levin may be a good guy, I have no idea, but that sounds pretty damn self-serving. So now, let's say I saw that, and was skeptical.....what's a snake to do?
I SUPPOSE I could read almost anything publishing-related, or even browse the shelves at B&N, and see if there is any such thing as a debut author...….and satisfy my snakey curiosity in like 15 minutes.
It is hard to get published. Strike that, it is extremely COMPETETIVE, and that's not a small fucking distinction. You can't say that acceptance rates are 0.05% or whatever they are, and act like that number exists in a bubble--the rate for extremely good writing is probably closer to say 5% or whatever, and for utter dog-shit, it is closer to 0.00005%. Yeah, things are getting tighter, but that absolutely doesn't mean new work never comes out. It means the work has to be better (we can argue metrics for "better" in a dozen later threads) and the acceptance rates and competition is still higher, but there's a reason folks are telling you "the work matters."
And I understand e-publishing is a completely viable model, but I still feel there's a lot of folks who think that means "oh, I just have to e-pub my first 5 or 6 books, build a fan base, and than I go Big 5"...….doesn't work that way. If you can't nurture a fan base you probably won't sell. If you don't sell, SAYING you have 5 novels out there and literally dozens of excited fans have read them doesn't give you anything at all....if anything it actually says you've demonstrated an ability to flop.
So write a good book. Then make it great. Then, make it morer betterer than that. Then do whichever route you wanted with the fucking thing, there is no "right way." But A) know what you want and make a plan to get there...a real plan, and B) make that thing shine, because in NO model is there room for sub-par shit. There isn't a singlular path, but I do feel like there's a lot of folks mislead into believing there is and wasting their talents chasing something half-baked because of a blog or 2.....don't just know WHAT you are doing, know WHY you are doing it....
The "world is going to hell, everything modern is crap" stance is a favorite trope for some people, especially if they're young. It makes them seem modern and sophisticated (or so they believe).
Nope. Fiction buying/publishing is less than a few years ago, but that's because there was an uptick in the industry then. If you look at the numbers of new fiction titles published each year there are ups and downs all the time, but generally over decades the trend is up.
True. My latest book is selling well for a self-published book, to my surprise. (It breaks several of the rules I thought were universal; I just wrote it for fun thinking it would sink like a rock.) Ever since the latest began to sell all the previous books have begun to sell again and in what I consider good numbers.
Nope. Fiction buying/publishing is less than a few years ago, but that's because there was an uptick in the industry then. If you look at the numbers of new fiction titles published each year there are ups and downs all the time, but generally over decades the trend is up.
True. My latest book is selling well for a self-published book, to my surprise. (It breaks several of the rules I thought were universal; I just wrote it for fun thinking it would sink like a rock.) Ever since the latest began to sell all the previous books have begun to sell again and in what I consider good numbers.
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I'm with Harlequin.
And BenPanced.
It's more widespread among the old fogeys, I reckon.
With tongue firmly in cheek, I say:
But only really awful poets are truly in touch with themselves.
And yes - I survived beatnik parties where bad poetry was read to the rhythm of bongo drums.
I explain it best in this video: https://youtu.be/uqefoZCp3X0
Us census data and others have shown steady book revenue declines since 2000 (predictably, this actually held true throughout the West), with only a recent flattening, while EBooks continue to slide after stagnating for years at 20% of the market.
This is despite an increasing population, and no economic downturn before and after 2008 (Including the 2000ish era of the onset).
Most severely affected is fiction. Below is largely bookstore data, but the trend is decades old by now.
https://dwarfplanetpress.wordpress.com/
Correlating chart 3 with 2 shows what (as I then extrapolated this -correctly- to Europe, as it turns out) is the first overall non-crisis Western decline in book revenues since, maybe, Roman times... Worst hit by far is fiction.
The most interesting part is the total lack of correlation with either internet sales (Amazon was a 2 billion midget then), EBooks, or the 2008 crisis. In fact, EBooks are losing ground now thanks to stabilizing book sales (mainly due to non fiction).
This below is unit sales, hence the misleading correlation with 2008. (EBooks went on to tank in unison with paper soon after this chart was made)
Average number of book read year/person has gone down from 4 to 3 (2010-2016) according to an industry study, as vanishing bookstores can well attest. Bear in mind the population still goes up 10% per decade, which makes all these numbers even more amazing.
Skyrocketing all alone are audio books. Even more telling...
Gaston
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Sexy diagrams. But they don't include the last several years. Still not buying "The (literary) world is going to hell" conclusion. In my field especially, SF/Fantasy, the situation is looking up.
Oh, here we go. Gather round, guys, so we can learn how audio books aren't real books and the same people who buy them are probably the kind of millennial who is killing off Hooters.
Firstly most of those graphs stop about 10 years ago and secondly I am not sure how they relate to the subject of the thread which is about Michael Levin saying that nowadays the only way for first-time writers to get published is after they have self-published and built a strong social media presence, which we have established is simply not true.
Yep. That Dickens bloke was all over social media. (He was too busy writing his weekly serials to spend any time at all self-promoting.)
Yep. Me too. And it's so worrying seeing people say that if they don't find a publisher they'll just self publish, like it's an easy thing to do.
Quite the opposite is true. Fiction sales are booming in the English speaking market. For example,
I'm a sort-of insider, and I will tell you you're wrong.
Write a great book. Submit it appropriately. You've got a great chance of finding a publishing deal. Debut authors are hot. They have been for years, because they're so good to market and promote. New is good.
This stance is very disrespectful to all the writers who are getting published now. There are some wonderful books out there. I've got a stack of them on my shelf right here, and have read a pile of brilliant books this year. Every time I visit my local bookshop I buy a bagful of great books.
Don't forget that publishers are primarily businesses. They have to publish books that sell well, or they go out of business. They're market-driven. They publish the things that the book-buying public want to buy and read. If you think "books that people want to buy and read" equates to "low quality books" then you're not only being disrespectful to the authors who are finding trade deals now, you're also denigrating readers.
So have I!
That's not an accurate reflection of the market as I have seen it. For example,
And this, which refers to 2018 sales:
Remember the link I posted earlier which stated that fiction sales were up?
Sales of digital editions haven't "tanked". They've levelled off but that was bound to happen: a relatively new market is always going to show disproportionately high sales as the format increases in popularity.
I disagree. For example, this report about the UK publishing market in 2017 states that,
I suspect you're relying on old data, because this just doesn't match with the market I've seen.
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Compared to when? Are you saying that fewer novels are being published today than in some previous period?
And most seemed to be focused on print sales. But what about the rise in digital sales?
"Skyrocketing all alone are audio books. Even more telling..."
Audio books are another great way of reading. They're wonderful for people who have a long commute, lots of housework to do, for people with disabilities who need a way other than a physical book in order to read, and for people who just LIKE reading that way.
And even if they're not *your* thing, they represent sales, so why should they be a problem?
Audio books are another great way of reading. They're wonderful for people who have a long commute, lots of housework to do, for people with disabilities who need a way other than a physical book in order to read, and for people who just LIKE reading that way.
And even if they're not *your* thing, they represent sales, so why should they be a problem?