Characters speaking mostly a foreign language in Middle Grade fiction

what?

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I have written the first draft of a Middle Grade detective adventure in the vein of Enid Blyton's Famous Five or Astrid Lindgren's Bill Bergson. In my novel, the protagonist, a boy from England, is on holidays in France. He befriends a French boy, and together they solve a crime.

The English boy has learned French in school for a year, and a small part of the story is how he first struggles and later manages to communicate with the locals. Since the French boy doesn't speak English, much of the dialogue in my first draft is in French.

When I began to write, I liked the idea of showing the difficulties of getting along in a foreign country with only a rudimentary knowledge of the language. But now I believe that such a book is basically unpublishable. There are a few books for language learners that have foreign language dialogue in English text, but they are for more advanced learners and have more foreign language dialogue than my book has. Also, not every child learns French, and my audience would be severely limited. Therefore I want to revise the text and write all the dialogue in English.

As I see it, I have now three options:

1. Set the story in England. All persons are English. The language subplot is lost. Locations, names, cultural differences, etc. have to be changed into English places, names and so on.

2. Set the story in France. All persons are French. The language subplot is lost. The French setting remains. (Basically my novel will appear as if it was translated from French.)

3. Keep the story as it is, but give the French dialogue in English. Italics signify French:

"Dad, this is Jean," Charlie introduced his new friend to his father.
"Hello, Jean," Charlie's father greeted Jean in French.
"Hello, Mr. Miller," Jean replied, and then added in strongly accented English: "Nice to meet you."

What I wonder is:

Should I confront Middle Grade readers with extended stretches of translated foreign language dialogue (option 3) at all?

Is the difficulty of getting along in a foreign language environment interesting to kids between 10 and 12? Does it add more to a detective adventrue story for them than it detracts?

I have never read a Middle Grade novel where the protagonist had to speak in a foreign language for most of the story. There is a lot of adult fiction where the protagonist has to get along in a foreign language environment (e.g. James Clavell's Shōgun or some science fiction stories), but maybe in Middle Grade fiction it is unsellable. Should I get rid of the foreign language dialogue completely (and choose options 1 or 2)?
 
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frimble3

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I would think that a lot of a foreign language to translate is going to feel more like homework than a pleasure read for most kids.
May I suggest option 3? If your MC has learned a little French in school, how about his new friend is a French boy that learned a little English in school? Maybe that's part of how they became friends?

There's still difficulties with the languages, but at least he's have someone to talk to, even if he has to struggle with tricky concepts like 'smugglers', or whatever. And, when his friend is absent, your MC is going to have to talk to people all by himself.

And, the basic stuff might be an encouragement to other readers:
'Bonjour, madam', 'Adieu', 'Merci'. Things an non-French speaker could figure out by context.
For beginning French students it might be fun to read him trying to work out sentences in advance:
"How do I say, 'which way did he go?' "

I just don't think walls of French text are going to be popular. Unless it sells well enough to be sold in France!
 

what?

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Thank you, frimble3. Apparently I haven't managed to ask my question well. I have already decided to get rid of the "walls of French text". Now I have to decide between the three options outlined in my question: give "foreign language" in English marked up as italics (3) or have everyone speak the same language (1 and 2). Between these three options, would you recommend option 3? Or would you prefer to not deal with italicised translated foreign language text at all (1 or 2)? I hope the question is now a bit clearer...
 

Hbooks

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My humble opinion, I find frimble's suggestion more appealing than the three options you presented. It seems you wrote the story with the language component present. Would cutting that out and setting it entirely in England/France with no component of communication/language gut its heart?

I find long passages of italics personally unpleasant, but that's just me. I could imagine a hybrid, however, of your third suggestion, and frimble's suggestion, where both boys had beginner's knowledge of the other's language, enough for you to slip in a few French words as frimble suggested, and when you needed to slip in too complicated a thought, you could say like, Jean asked for directions in French.
 

what?

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It seems you wrote the story with the language component present. Would cutting that out and setting it entirely in England/France with no component of communication/language gut its heart?

Not at all. It is just that I find it interesting and would like to keep it. But I'm an adult who has been reading French for 30+ years, and I have no idea what publishers of MG books think their audience wants. Therefore this question. It is, as I wrote, a question about what sells.

I find long passages of italics personally unpleasant, but that's just me.

I guess I do too...
 

Elenitsa

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There are many books in which people happen to speak different languages. Most of them aren't even in Italics.

"And what are we doing now?" he asked in French.

"I don't understand this," the other boy replied in English.

Simply mention when they are talking in each language, it's simple!
 

autumnleaf

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I think the usual standard is to use italics for phrases in a foreign languages, but normal text for "translated" speech.

So:
"Au revoir." He waved goodbye.
Or:
"Goodbye," he said in French.
 

ap123

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I know there are children's books my kiddos read that were written in a mix of Spanish and English, great for kids in dual language programs, but by the time they were reading middle grade the books were either/or. Maybe see if there is a market for middle grade fiction for bilingual/dual language students?
 

Richard White

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I don't know what the standard is in text, but I have noted in web comics, the letterer tends to mark off a phrase using <> when a person is speaking in a language other than the dominant language. For example:

Bastian: I think you both need to come this way.
Rusty: <What did he say?>
Thomas: <We need to go that way. Follow him.>
Thomas: We're right behind you.

Now, obviously, that's easier to do with word balloons and you have the art to show who's talking to whom about what.

I agree though that italics might be confusing except to designate specific foreign words like Autumnleaf's example. When I see italics for more than one word, I assume that it's internal monologue until proven otherwise.
 

starrystorm

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Sorry to put a question here, but I didn't want to start a new thread for something similar. Please focus on what?'s question first.

My character is reading a book, translating it to English for the MMC. There is a plant, in his world, that can't be translated. Would I leave it without italics like I would a name?


Also, I would go with option two.
 

what?

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There is a plant, in his world, that can't be translated. Would I leave it without italics like I would a name?

I'd put that name in italics, like Latin plant names in our world.
 

neandermagnon

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From personal experience, French kids tend to speak English better than British kids speak French. Ditto any other country on the continent. Most British people* are crap at speaking other languages and schools often don't start teaching French until year 7 (age 11-12). However, lots of schools on the continent start kids learning English from a much younger age, even as young as seven, or even in nursery school.

*with notable exceptions, for example Welsh speakers speak both Welsh and English with high proficiency and I've known language teachers in Wales comment that they can tell which kids do and don't speak Welsh at home by how quickly they pick up French, i.e. the Welsh kids pick it up more quickly because they're already bilingual.

Given this, first of all I'd find it a lot more plausible if your English kid can only barely speak French because he's only learned it for one year in school (he'd now be in year 8, most likely, and if it's a state school he's probably not going to learn all that much in that year - if he's at a private school he could've had better opportunities than this), but the French kid is quite proficient in English because he's been learning it since he was six or seven.

Out of good manners, IMO your MC should still try to speak French wherever possible, because the British have a reputation for being arrogant idiots who think that everyone should speak English and don't even try to learn other languages. From a parent point of view, MG fiction that features a main character who values speaking to other people in their own language and making the effort to learn it would be great. So even if you take into account the above, there should still be conversations in French. Just maybe keep the French at a year 7-8 level, and more complicated conversations that involve important plot information can happen in English, because the French kid speaks it better, or the MC's speaking to adults who speak English well. Or something along those lines.
 
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frimble3

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The adults' skills would depend on where this is set, I imagine. Even it's not a big town, there'd be more English speakers in a seaside tourist town, and, say, a quiet rural village that foreigners merely drive through.
 

Twick

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I have written the first draft of a Middle Grade detective adventure in the vein of Enid Blyton's Famous Five or Astrid Lindgren's Bill Bergson. In my novel, the protagonist, a boy from England, is on holidays in France. He befriends a French boy, and together they solve a crime.

The English boy has learned French in school for a year, and a small part of the story is how he first struggles and later manages to communicate with the locals. Since the French boy doesn't speak English, much of the dialogue in my first draft is in French.

When I began to write, I liked the idea of showing the difficulties of getting along in a foreign country with only a rudimentary knowledge of the language. But now I believe that such a book is basically unpublishable. There are a few books for language learners that have foreign language dialogue in English text, but they are for more advanced learners and have more foreign language dialogue than my book has. Also, not every child learns French, and my audience would be severely limited. Therefore I want to revise the text and write all the dialogue in English.

As I see it, I have now three options:

1. Set the story in England. All persons are English. The language subplot is lost. Locations, names, cultural differences, etc. have to be changed into English places, names and so on.

2. Set the story in France. All persons are French. The language subplot is lost. The French setting remains. (Basically my novel will appear as if it was translated from French.)

3. Keep the story as it is, but give the French dialogue in English. Italics signify French:
"Where are you?" Charlie asked.
"I'm over here," Jean replied in French.

What I wonder is:

Should I confront Middle Grade readers with extended stretches of translated foreign language dialogue (option 3) at all?

Is the difficulty of getting along in a foreign language environment interesting to kids between 10 and 12? Does it add more to a detective adventrue story for them than it detracts?

I have never read a Middle Grade novel where the protagonist had to speak in a foreign language for most of the story. There is a lot of adult fiction where the protagonist has to get along in a foreign language environment (e.g. James Clavell's Shōgun or some science fiction stories), but maybe in Middle Grade fiction it is unsellable. Should I get rid of the foreign language dialogue completely (and choose options 1 or 2)?

I'm not sure that people who speak different languages would solve it by each speaking their own language, hoping the other people would understand. My admittedly minimal experience is that such conversations would pick one language or another, or even flip back and forth. Otherwise, I suspect people might forget that the other person isn't able to follow long, complex utterances in the other language.
 

what?

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I'm not sure that people who speak different languages would solve it by each speaking their own language, hoping the other people would understand. My admittedly minimal experience is that such conversations would pick one language or another, or even flip back and forth. Otherwise, I suspect people might forget that the other person isn't able to follow long, complex utterances in the other language.

If you are talking about my example, that was just an example to illustrate the differences between English (not in italics) and French (in italics) dialogue. It was not a part of my actual writing. I have edited my question and given a hopefully less confusing example (which also isn't taken from my novel).

To clarify: "Jean" (whose name isn't Jean in my text) doesn't understand English.
 

Debbie V

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It's unlikely that Jean wouldn't understand any English unless he is from a rural area and poorly educated and/or the story took place in another time period. Neandermagnon explained why.

As someone who taught English as a second language in the US (with a Masters in the field), I can tell you that it takes 1-3 years to gain conversational fluency in a language. The more the person has cause to use and hear the language, the closer they are to the faster end of the range. This means that your main character's ability would improve as the story progressed. But a first year student who only uses the language in school learns very basic vocabulary and the present tense of regular verbs. If Jean speaks no English, your two characters would be developing their own gestural language to communicate and it wouldn't allow for complex sentences.

The premise that they could solve a mystery together doesn't fly in these circumstances. Jean not speaking any English would take me out of the story unless a plausible explanation was given.
 

what?

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It's unlikely that Jean wouldn't understand any English ...

English and French were only examples chosen for the benefit of the English-speaking members of this forum. I'm not writing in English, and my protagonist speaks a language that isn't learned in school in the country he visits.

... a first year student who only uses the language in school learns very basic vocabulary and the present tense of regular verbs. If Jean speaks no English, your two characters would be developing their own gestural language to communicate and it wouldn't allow for complex sentences.

That's exactly how I have it in my story.

The premise that they could solve a mystery together doesn't fly in these circumstances.

My characters get along fine with first year vocabulary (which I have taken from school books) and gestures.
 

Debbie V

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I have seen chapter books with long stretches of italics, so that doesn't concern me. It's also possible that the final book will use a different font rather than italics. That's up to the book designer.

There is a slight push in the US to treat all languages as equal and not use italics, but I can't say where that will go. And actually, you wouldn't use italics for translated dialog. You'd just note that it was translated as you did in example 3.