YA themes in Middle Grade Books

ap123

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Off the top of my head, I can think of 10 families I know/have known--as a parent, and I've been a parent for 25 years--where the parents were same-sex couples. Never once on the playground, classroom, PTA meeting, or pediatrician's office was this an issue that was too confusing for my kids, the kids of the same sex couples, or any other kids they played with/went to class with. For little ones, an effort was made to have a couple of picture books/early readers featuring children with same sex parents, same as efforts were made to have picture books/early readers with children who were black, latino, asian, etc.

There are many ways to configure a family, and in my experience, children understand this--without any pesky confusion or assumptions re sophistication.
 

ap123

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Lots of things are confusing to younger children who have no experience of them.
Heck, I didn't see a live horse or cow until I was 8 or 9.
What better way to introduce them to things outside their experience than in a book? A book where they can ask questions if something puzzles them, or associate it with something they do know.
And if the adults around the child act 'funny' about something, the child swiftly learns to keep their questions to themselves.

Weirdly, when I was a kid, I didn't know anyone 'in life' who was divorced. It was something that only happened on TV. But I knew a gay guy, at second hand. He was a friend of my parents, who worked on a ship, and came to visit when he was in town. We must have asked Mum if he had a family, and (I've forgotten the exact words) but she said something about him having a boyfriend and not a girlfriend, so no marriage. (It was small-town 60's.) We must have shrugged and went back to what we were doing, because I don't remember follow-up questions.

In general, I think most children are only 'interested' in adult stuff if adults make a big fuss about it.

Once I was old enough to read on my own, (pre-first grade) my parents didn't monitor what I read.

In the interest of full disclosure, I didn't see a full grown cow live and up close until I was in my twenties. I was freaking terrified--they're huge! and they smell terrible! Oddly enough, I didn't think children's books with cows in them should be banned or restricted around delicate, sheltered urban kiddos like myself who might get confused.
 

cornflake

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In the interest of full disclosure, I didn't see a full grown cow live and up close until I was in my twenties. I was freaking terrified--they're huge! and they smell terrible! Oddly enough, I didn't think children's books with cows in them should be banned or restricted around delicate, sheltered urban kiddos like myself who might get confused.

Hah ditto on the urban, though I loved cows right away. A sibling however, was very confused by what kind of dog was standing in a field. It looked so weird (because it was a sheep).
 

ap123

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Hah ditto on the urban, though I loved cows right away. A sibling however, was very confused by what kind of dog was standing in a field. It looked so weird (because it was a sheep).

:roll: (had I been younger, I could have been your sib)
 

vsrenard

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Off the top of my head, I can think of 10 families I know/have known--as a parent, and I've been a parent for 25 years--where the parents were same-sex couples. Never once on the playground, classroom, PTA meeting, or pediatrician's office was this an issue that was too confusing for my kids, the kids of the same sex couples, or any other kids they played with/went to class with. For little ones, an effort was made to have a couple of picture books/early readers featuring children with same sex parents, same as efforts were made to have picture books/early readers with children who were black, latino, asian, etc.

There are many ways to configure a family, and in my experience, children understand this--without any pesky confusion or assumptions re sophistication.

These days children understand this, and in no small part because of what they see in art, books, and film. I recall my sister reading her 4-yr-old daughter a book about two moms. Kid loved it, said why can't we have 10 mamas? Or 100? My sister laughed and said that would be great, wouldn't it. At age 7 now, kid understands 100 people can't get married (or at least don't). But the so-called sophisticated issue didn't faze her then or now. A lot of that has to do with how the parent/teacher/caregiver interacts with the kid.

ETA: Sister lives in a community that has next to zero diversity. She took her daughter to a same-sex wedding when kid was 4 or 5. Kid's only complaint--it was too long. We don't give kids enough credit for being flexible.
 
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frimble3

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Hah ditto on the urban, though I loved cows right away. A sibling however, was very confused by what kind of dog was standing in a field. It looked so weird (because it was a sheep).
I think that's the sort of thing my parents were trying to avoid.;) To the extent of taking us, by boat, to the next town over, which was very agricultural. My lord, the horses were HUGE! (I had seen pictures, of course, but was really thinking of my toy horses.) And, one place had those giant white chickens, that sort of marched up and demanded grain.
Way scarier than some kid having two mothers.

But, we learn and move on.
 

cornflake

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These days children understand this, and in no small part because of what they see in art, books, and film. I recall my sister reading her 4-yr-old daughter a book about two moms. Kid loved it, said why can't we have 10 mamas? Or 100? My sister laughed and said that would be great, wouldn't it. At age 7 now, kid understands 100 people can't get married (or at least don't). But the so-called sophisticated issue didn't faze her then or now. A lot of that has to do with how the parent/teacher/caregiver interacts with the kid.

ETA: Sister lives in a community that has next to zero diversity. She took her daughter to a same-sex wedding when kid was 4 or 5. Kid's only complaint--it was too long. We don't give kids enough credit for being flexible.

I think the these days depends entirely on your edit there.

I grew up in a diverse, urban area and my parents had gay friends and gay friends who had kids (no, they weren't legally wed but I don't think I knew that or knew there was a difference -- grownups as part of a couple were just that, and if they were some other kid's parents they were and looking back I've got very little idea who was married and who wasn't, among straight couples.), knew interracial couples, etc. Two of their friends who I looooooved when I was little were an interracial mixed-height couple (he had dwarfism). I didn't think anything about any of it except who was fun and who was boring and which kids I liked to play with and which kids I didn't want in my room.

I also have a very clear memory of being quite young, walking with my dad and ending up behind two older men holding hands that I did ask about -- because one was wearing black leather from head to toe, including straps, chains, a jaunty captain's type hat, and assless chaps, and the other was wearing a sweater and pants. My dad said some people like different clothes, and some people like a lot of attention, heh.

Kids roll with the flow. If they live in a treehouse, they assume everyone lives in a treehouse until proven otherwise, and then it's just interesting. If they grow up in a very diverse area, that's just how it is -- people speak all different languages, are different colours, etc. If they grow up in a non-diverse area, then that's not their experience, but the new things are still generally just interesting information, not shocking and disturbing revelation.
 

neandermagnon

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We are all smart people here and certainly know that "sophisticated" refers to complicated or adult themes.

So now that has been defined, would you as a parent or educator be comfortable with discussing these themes with an 8-12 yr old child ? Maybe you'd be ok with 12 yr olds reading books like this and not 8 yr olds? Would it matter to you? What has your own experience been?

It's extremely easy to discuss gay relationships with children. It's only homophobic adults who make it difficult for themselves by imagining a whole bunch of "issues" that just aren't there.

Here's a conversation I had with my kids about a year after gay marriage was made legal in the UK:

My younger daughter (then about 5 or so) was playing with two toys and making them get married.

Older daughter (then about 8 or 9): *laughs* oh, they can't get married, they're both boys

Me: yes they can

Older daughter: says who?

Me: David Cameron. He made a law that said a man can marry a man, and a woman can marry a woman.

Older daughter: oh, okay then

**kids carry on playing, the two male toys get married***

Also, when we went to visit an old school friend of mine who's a man and married to a man, I told my kids, "this is (name of old friend) and this is (name of husband), his husband." They accepted it without question.

Honestly, it may seem complicated to you if you've grown up in a community where there's a lot of homophobia and a lot of people saying about how it's wrong and sinful or whatever, but it really is that straight forward. Kids accept things the way they are. It's the responsibility of adults to not heap a pile of homophobic baggage on kids.
 
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AW Admin

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Those are certainly appropriate themes for 8-12. It all depends how the authors write about them. An 8 yr old can definitely relate to care homes, divorce and mental illness. IMO :Thumbs:

My point is to open up discussion. And it has.

Actually, your post resulted in 6 PMs objecting that you're being disrespectful to your fellow writers, and a post from this forum's moderator asking you to comport yourself appropriately. A post you've ignored.

Moreover, I'm pretty sure that your carefully crafted use of "sophisticated" in scare-quotes was an evocative dog-whistle to entice compatriots to an entirely different discussion than the one you've received.

Because we've had this discussion hundreds of times. And we recognize a dog-whistle. We particularly recognize when someone disingenuously dismisses attempts to genuinely engage.

So let's look at your rhetoric.

I don't have any titles on the tip of my tongue, but I have noticed that trend in review publications.

You, not for the first time, can't provide specifics. Which suggests that you're not really interested in the specific topic you began with; YA Themes in MG Books.

That really, you have another topic in mind, one that you introduce:

It seems like mg is getting more "sophisticated". Mg used to be more Little House on the Prairie and now some stories are getting into the I-don't-like-my daddy's-boyfriend area.

You've used "sophisticated" in scare-quotes here; you've carefully marked the use of the word sophisticated as encoded language. And then you provide an example of what MG "used to be" with Little House on the Prairie (a 1935 book problematic in several ways) vs the current status: "now some stories are getting into the I-don't-like-my daddy's-boyfriend area."

So you've now provided a specific textual marker for the subtext of "sophisticated": books with same-sex parents.

Which suggests that "sophisticated" is an encoded a dog-whistle for "I don't like books with queers."

Which is fine for you, but you then proceed to clarify your agenda even further, after responding to an attempt to engage with a dismissive comment.

There's nothing about a mother's annoying/unlike-able/abusive boyfriend that makes a plot specifically or exclusively YA.

We both gave our opinions. I'm fine with that.

Except you're dismissing an assertion of fact as one of opinion. That's a failure to engage.

When I point out some of the problems with Little House On the Prairie, you quote a portion of my post
A lot of kids have dads with boyfriends, partners or husbands. Or their best friend does. Or two moms.

And respond with:

A lot? Do you have statistics to support your view?

This post is problematic in two ways; first, you're asking for statistics to support my view (without yet doing anything to support your own) and then, again, following up with a dismissal that "it's your opinion and I'm fine with that."

Except "A lot of kids have dads with boyfriends, partners or husbands. Or their best friend does. Or two moms. " isn't "an opinion." It's a statement of fact.

One that you're attempting to dismiss. Then you return to your agenda, and again, your encoded dog-whistle:


Some educators and parents might be uncomfortable discussing such a "sophisticated" book with 8-12 yr olds. No statistical support just personal experience.

Now one of the things the The Newbie Guide to Absolute Write establishes in the RYFW section is this:

The complexity and diversity in our backgrounds can be much more difficult to face and deal with, honestly, when things are couched in terms of "gosh, it was all just in good fun" because of the built-in refusal to examine underlying attitudes of exclusion, or "I'm normal and you're not" -- which by extension implies that anyone who insists on examining exactly that is humorless and "PC."

Which reminds me -- accusing each other of "being PC" when you disagree really isn't cool. And what it usually boils down to is that someone is being a jerk or a bigot -- maybe inadvertently, maybe not -- and gets called on it which makes that person defensive.

You've essentially repeated yourself. And you've used "sophisticated" again, and clearly established that you're using "sophisticated" in scare quotes to encode same-sex parents.

When I point out that you maybe need to look at books published since 1935, you respond:

You are speaking to someone who has 30 yrs experience in this area. ;)

Which, you know, pretty much underwhelms as a counter argument; it's an attempt to argue from authority, also known as argumentum ad verecundiam, or the appeal to authority.

Several members attempt to actually get you to engage and discuss. Your response? The same dismissal:

I appreciate your opinions. All of them.

I clarify, again from a factual standpoint, with links: since you invited statistics.

And I make it clear that your attempt to dismiss facts via your use of the argumentum ad verecundiam isn't sufficient.

You then attempt to dismiss Sage with
You're reading things that aren't there.

Except Sage absolutely isn't; your text (and sub-text) are very clear. And then you post this:

Some educators and parents might be uncomfortable discussing such a "sophisticated" book with 8-12 yr olds. No statistical support just personal experience.

And some educators and teachers might embrace discussing such "sophisticated" books with 8-12 yr olds. For sure.

It's good to have a discussion where different ideas are bandied, isn't it. Diversity of ideas is a good thing.

This is a clumsy and disingenuous attempt to, again, avoid actual discussion. And it's a dismissal. And you follow up with:

My point is to open up discussion. And it has.

It hasn't "opened up" anything; we've had these discussions going back more than ten years. You haven't actually discussed at all.

What you've done is tip-toed around the issue of same-sex parents. You're perfectly entitled to be as heteronormative as you want.

Stop trying to pretend that you're not really objecting to same-sex parents in MG books. Because you are. And since you've made your "sophisticated" dog-whistle a siren, and made it clear you're not honestly engaging, you've outstayed your welcome.
 
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DarienW

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I can only say that I was out of the closet from 19 in the early 80s. When my siblings started having children, some of them chose to make it known I was gay, other's didn't. I can't speak to why, as I have another brother who is also gay, and has been with his partner for 25 years. To me, it was so obvious. We both went to my brother's first-born's bar mitzvah with our latino BFs in tow. BION, some of them still didn't know . . . sigh . . . and my brother's wife was Jewish and we were raised Catholic--scandal--a mixed religious marriage! I think that I'm white and was in a mixed race relationship is implied, but just in case, I am and was.

The story I have is, my three or four year old niece who knew I was gay. I visited with my boyfriend a year earlier, and still being friends after we broke up, brought him back again. My niece stated plainly that we were no longer a couple. She could tell by our interactions. She was curious about what happened.

I have to agree that gay people, in whatever way, have been around forever. It's only recently that some rights have been extended to them, including gay marriage.

I think the point of a story is to allow people to immerse themselves in a world, often outside their own lives, and I think most of the time, it can lead to more understanding of someone else's life. Empathy is a good thing.

MS KIKI, if you've got a problem discussing "sophisticated" books with your students, or kids, or library readers, you are simply projecting your prejudice onto young minds, who IMHO, are much more willing to absorb said "sophisticated" topics than you as an adult are, based on my niece and other stories, as well as what you've written here.

Consider why you wanted to start this discussion. Were you hoping to find others who agree with you, or were you just trolling?

Like Bonnie Raitt sings, "I Can't Make You Love Me." Try reading one of the books you're positive isn't appropriate for 8-12 year olds, you may find yourself drawn into the story and more understanding of other realities as a result.

Reading about a gay couple, or parents, or people will not make someone gay. Is that your fear? Ask yourself, if you read a book with gay themes, would it make you gay?

Yeah, I didn't think so . . .

You asked for experiences, here's mine.
 

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I somewhat distrust upper MG books written by YA authors. They simply lack the spirit of MG and read more like a YA that had been stripped of violence and sexuality. Look at Loki's Wolves by Kelley Armstrong and Melissa Marr or Magisterium by Holly Black and Cassandra Clare, both of which were written by YA-authors-turned-MG. Those books aren't funny, contain 13 year old characters who are too serious, and have an overall tone that could bleed into YA at any moment. I understand that there should be works aimed strictly at 13-14 year olds, which is to say, less mature than Divergent and more mature than Percy Jackson, but not everyone could nail something like that. The False Prince and The Ranger's Apprentice managed to pull it off briilliantly, though.
 

cornflake

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I somewhat distrust upper MG books written by YA authors. They simply lack the spirit of MG and read more like a YA that had been stripped of violence and sexuality. Look at Loki's Wolves by Kelley Armstrong and Melissa Marr or Magisterium by Holly Black and Cassandra Clare, both of which were written by YA-authors-turned-MG. Those books aren't funny, contain 13 year old characters who are too serious, and have an overall tone that could bleed into YA at any moment. I understand that there should be works aimed strictly at 13-14 year olds, which is to say, less mature than Divergent and more mature than Percy Jackson, but not everyone could nail something like that. The False Prince and The Ranger's Apprentice managed to pull it off briilliantly, though.

Wait, so all MG has to be funny, and 13-year-olds can't be serious?
 

Emissarius

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and 13-year-olds can't be serious?

If another 13 yo around them is funny, then sure, they can be serious, but when all three of your 13 yo MC's are practically screaming "get me out of MG and dump into YA," that's when it becomes jarring. Besides, it's a fact that 13-14 yo characters are hard to classify between MG and YA. "Tweens" isn't fully recognized as an age category.
 

cornflake

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If another 13 yo around them is funny, then sure, they can be serious, but when all three of your 13 yo MC's are practically screaming "get me out of MG and dump into YA," that's when it becomes jarring. Besides, it's a fact that 13-14 yo characters are hard to classify between MG and YA. "Tweens" isn't fully recognized as an age category.

Thirteen- and fourteen-year-olds aren't tweens, that's like 10-12, hence the name. Again, don't see why it'd be 'dump me into YA' because they're serious. The line is arbitrary to begin with; it's not like there are specific rules for humour level or content.
 

Emissarius

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Thirteen- and fourteen-year-olds aren't tweens, that's like 10-12, hence the name.
I'm perfectly aware. I was talking about 13 and 14 yo characters, not readers. It's a general rule that most kids like to "read up." So tweens (10-12 yo readers) would prefer reading about 13-14 year-olds instead of characters their age or younger.